Towers or Bookshelves: The debate

[TLS Guy]

TLS- have you noticed that extreme highs (musical spectrum) causes an annoying sensation or do you just not hear the higher frequencies?

I guess the answer to this is only from speakers that aren't right, and that's a lot.

Basically I don't get it at live concerts, and I mean concerts without any amplification. My speakers do not annoy me either or cause any distress.

However quite a few people with noise induced damage to the inner ear and or eighth cranial nerve do get high frequency, and often to go with it, amplitude induced tinnitus, which is very annoying for those so afflicted.

Tinnitus is a high pitched sound, usually, that makes its presence intrusive to varying degrees. Often there is a white or pink noise component, which can be independent and coexist. All of these signs are of bad prognostic significance.

In general individuals do not perceive themselves as having hearing difficulty until their turnover frequency is below 2500KHz. In my experience people do not generally seek help until the turnover frequency is around 1500 KHz.

As the turnover frequency drops below 1000Hz people start becoming profoundly deaf. That is why to a lot of patients deafness appears to come on quite quickly.

I don't know if that information helps you or not.

 

[3db]

I guess the answer to this is only from speakers that aren't right, and that's a lot.

Basically I don't get it at live concerts, and I mean concerts without any amplification. My speakers do not annoy me either or cause any distress.

However quite a few people with noise induced damage to the inner ear and or eighth cranial nerve do get high frequency, and often to go with it, amplitude induced tinnitus, which is very annoying for those so afflicted.

Tinnitus is a high pitched sound, usually, that makes its presence intrusive to varying degrees. Often there is a white or pink noise component, which can be independent and coexist. All of these signs are of bad prognostic significance.

In general individuals do not perceive themselves as having hearing difficulty until their turnover frequency is below 2500KHz. In my experience people do not generally seek help until the turnover frequency is around 1500 KHz.

As the turnover frequency drops below 1000Hz people start becoming profoundly deaf. That is why to a lot of patients deafness appears to come on quite quickly.

I don't know if that information helps you or not.

I remember in grade 12 being the only guy to hear 20KHz in our class.. and then walking out of the electronics lab with splitting headaches because I could hear the 18.5Khz whine of the old 2 channel analo scopes we were using. Now I'm 45 can barely hear 13.5KHz.

 

[TLS Guy]

I remember in grade 12 being the only guy to hear 20KHz in our class.. and then walking out of the electronics lab with splitting headaches because I could hear the 18.5Khz whine of the old 2 channel analo scopes we were using. Now I'm 45 can barely hear 13.5KHz.

So you have had above average hearing all your life. People should not forget that the absolute HF limit of an FM broadcast is 15 KHz. They do not sound HF deficient. I can attest to that having heard Friday's live broadcast from Orchestra Hall of newly composed music conducted by Osmo Vanska. Naturally the percussion section was bloated, and I can assure you all the bells triangles and struck metal tubes, came through in all their glory!

 

[highfigh]

I guess the answer to this is only from speakers that aren't right, and that's a lot.

Basically I don't get it at live concerts, and I mean concerts without any amplification. My speakers do not annoy me either or cause any distress.

However quite a few people with noise induced damage to the inner ear and or eighth cranial nerve do get high frequency, and often to go with it, amplitude induced tinnitus, which is very annoying for those so afflicted.

Tinnitus is a high pitched sound, usually, that makes its presence intrusive to varying degrees. Often there is a white or pink noise component, which can be independent and coexist. All of these signs are of bad prognostic significance.

In general individuals do not perceive themselves as having hearing difficulty until their turnover frequency is below 2500KHz. In my experience people do not generally seek help until the turnover frequency is around 1500 KHz.



As the turnover frequency drops below 1000Hz people start becoming profoundly deaf. That is why to a lot of patients deafness appears to come on quite quickly.

I don't know if that information helps you or not.

I was referring to your actual perception of high frequencies, but the additional information is always helpful.

I have used function generators through good audio equipment for speaker testing and am somewhat amazed that I can still hear a tone at the upper range of normal hearing, as well as transformer squeal from a TV, which is ~17.5KHz, if I remember correctly. I was a bit disappointed when the audiologist told me that their tests only went to about 8KHz because they're really only concerned with speech intelligibility, which I can understand. Listening to music wasn't the "intended" purpose for human ears, anyway- survival was.

I agree that FM can sound decent in some cases but I have yet to hear it not sound limited at the top. I would have to assume that a large part of this is due to the stations all wanting to get people's attention and if they didn't sound louder, which = better to far too many listeners, they wouldn't have the audience they do.

I have heard people refer to highs as being "annoying", feeling a sort of pressure with no actual tone associated or kind of a chirping sound, none of which would indicate good ear health.

I was looking at your system at your home page- have you worked with a large variety of the Hi-Vi and Dayton drivers? What are your opinions of the others that you didn't use in your system?

 

[WmAx]

I was referring to your actual perception of high frequencies, but the additional information is always helpful.

I have used function generators through good audio equipment for speaker testing and am somewhat amazed that I can still hear a tone at the upper range of normal hearing, as well as transformer squeal from a TV, which is ~17.5KHz, if I remember correctly. I was a bit disappointed when the audiologist told me that their tests only went to about 8KHz because they're really only concerned with speech intelligibility, which I can understand. Listening to music wasn't the "intended" purpose for human ears, anyway- survival was.

There is a big difference between listening to high amplitude sine waves at high treble frequencies vs. music program. Music has an ever decreasing ratio of energy as you move up in frequency. In the music program blind tests that went on when the CD format was designed, it was found that music did not need anything over 14-15kHz; after that point, listening subjects could not discern a difference, and this was among a huge pool of audio enthusiasts and professionals. The increased the bandwidth to 22khz in final specification just for a safety margin of error.

I have re-created such tests using a FFT linear filter to remove energy over 15kHz, and then double blind testing the results. In almost every case, no difference could be found. I can hear an 18kHz sine wave just fine, btw. The only time a difference could be heard was with this unusual electronic music example that had a 15kHz sustained high amplitude sine wave as part of the music - a very rare thing indeed.

-Chris

 

[haraldo]

As it stands right now and based on the price point your looking at,

http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/Synchrony are the one to beat tin the industry. They have garnered nothing but exceptionaly favourable reviews.

They may be good, but I would never ever buy speakers based on good reviews, I don't buy speakers that others like.... I would prefer to buy speakers that I like.... and it's not certain that you agree with reviewers.... There's no way not to audition.......

 

[TLS Guy]

I was referring to your actual perception of high frequencies, but the additional information is always helpful.

I have used function generators through good audio equipment for speaker testing and am somewhat amazed that I can still hear a tone at the upper range of normal hearing, as well as transformer squeal from a TV, which is ~17.5KHz, if I remember correctly. I was a bit disappointed when the audiologist told me that their tests only went to about 8KHz because they're really only concerned with speech intelligibility, which I can understand. Listening to music wasn't the "intended" purpose for human ears, anyway- survival was.

I agree that FM can sound decent in some cases but I have yet to hear it not sound limited at the top. I would have to assume that a large part of this is due to the stations all wanting to get people's attention and if they didn't sound louder, which = better to far too many listeners, they wouldn't have the audience they do.

I have heard people refer to highs as being "annoying", feeling a sort of pressure with no actual tone associated or kind of a chirping sound, none of which would indicate good ear health.

I was looking at your system at your home page- have you worked with a large variety of the Hi-Vi and Dayton drivers? What are your opinions of the others that you didn't use in your system?

I chose the drivers by application. I think that is how you should select drivers. we have alot of threads about which is the best driver out there. The real question is what is the driver to select for this application.

I selected mine by application. I have modeled some Dayton drivers, but never used any. I think they have a number of drivers useful for subs. From what I have seen of their bass mids, the out of band response has been problematic. I have used a Hi-Vi ribbon tweeter but nothing else.

 

[highfigh]

There is a big difference between listening to high amplitude sine waves at high treble frequencies vs. music program. Music has an ever decreasing ratio of energy as you move up in frequency. In the music program blind tests that went on when the CD format was designed, it was found that music did not need anything over 14-15kHz; after that point, listening subjects could not discern a difference, and this was among a huge pool of audio enthusiasts and professionals. The increased the bandwidth to 22khz in final specification just for a safety margin of error.

I have re-created such tests using a FFT linear filter to remove energy over 15kHz, and then double blind testing the results. In almost every case, no difference could be found. I can hear an 18kHz sine wave just fine, btw. The only time a difference could be heard was with this unusual electronic music example that had a 15kHz sustained high amplitude sine wave as part of the music - a very rare thing indeed.

-Chris

I have dog ears, too and 18K isn't the end of my hearing, which is unfortunate, at times.

I would never subject my ears or speakers to high amplitude sine wave. I like being able to hear people when they speak.

You couldn't hear the difference between full-bandwidth and stopping at 15K? What about hearing a song on the radio and having the same CD available to compare with? I have never failed to hear a difference.

 

[3db]

They may be good, but I would never ever buy speakers based on good reviews, I don't buy speakers that others like.... I would prefer to buy speakers that I like.... and it's not certain that you agree with reviewers.... There's no way not to audition.......

Agreed and I never said to puchase them outright without auditioning. Always audition. Thats the golden rule.

 

[DD66000]

Agreed and I never said to puchase them outright without auditioning. Always audition. Thats the golden rule.

With less and less B&M stores that is getting harder and harder to do, unless you live in a large metro area that has many hifi stores.
The speakers I bought in '06 I hadn't heard. But between very good reviews and the fact they were very much like the speakers I had for 25 years, from the same company, I bought and did my first audition in my home, they were just as I figured they would be.

And that would be the same situation with any ID speakers company. Have to buy first and if you don't like 'em, send 'em back. And that can be true even with traditional speaker companies, if you happen to live in an area where their speakers aren't sold, as was in my case.

 

[3db]

With less and less B&M stores that is getting harder and harder to do, unless you live in a large metro area that has many hifi stores.
The speakers I bought in '06 I hadn't heard. But between very good reviews and the fact they were very much like the speakers I had for 25 years, from the same company, I bought and did my first audition in my home, they were just as I figured they would be.

And that would be the same situation with any ID speakers company. Have to buy first and if you don't like 'em, send 'em back. And that can be true even with traditional speaker companies, if you happen to live in an area where their speakers aren't sold, as was in my case.

Thats unfortunate for those that live in remote areas. I can understand that point all too well. But for those who do live in an area were speaker selection is good, it only helps to audition..

 

[DD66000]

Thats unfortunate for those that live in remote areas. I can understand that point all too well. But for those who do live in an area were speaker selection is good, it only helps to audition..

There is one guy who I think lives in SoCa and couldn't find a dealer who had a particular model of Revel he wanted to audition. So even in an area like LA, might still come up short.

There are many custom install companies who sell high end, mid-high speakers, but don't have any showrooms for auditions.
Even if I took a drive over to Frisco, there would still be speakers I couldn't audition.

 

[haraldo]

Agreed and I never said to puchase them outright without auditioning. Always audition. Thats the golden rule.

Good to hear, I'm even very very skeptical to many reviews... Even heard about "start reviewers" auctioning speakers out of phase, needless to say that makes me even more skeptical... So yes, Auditioning is a must

 

[gixxerific]

This is getting good. Lot's of good info\advice here.

Still probaly gonna go with towers, though will be many auditons. I still have about 5 month's to finalize my research and start buying speakers hopefullly to keep but possibly to retrun and try again.

Dono

 

[dorokusai]

I've always preferred bookshelf style speakers because you never expect too much from them. Yet, when they deliver fantastic sound, it's a great experience. Floorstanders have built-in expectations for me, I've heard way more bookends and way more fun with them than floorstanders over the years.

That's a general comment and only about monkey coffins.

Mark