Towers or Bookshelves: The debate

gixxerific

gixxerific

Audioholic
Hi gixxerific

I am from St. Louis too. Audio shops are listed under “Stereo Equip.-DLRS & SVCE” in the Yellowbook. I was shopping for subwoofers and I went to “The Sound Room, Inc” on Olive and “The Speaker Store’, but I didn’t see the latter listed in the phone book so maybe they are gone. The audio store in the Chesterfield mall didn’t have much on display. You might want to make a list of speakers recommended to you and then visit a few local audio stores to see if any of them carry any of the speakers on your list.
Thanks I am going to hit up every shop I can find within an hour or so drive. I actually live in Wentzville. I have been to the Sound Room several times in my life, I have been an audio nut since I was a wee lad. The Speaker store sounds familiar, HI FI FO Fum is decent too I believe, I got my Alpine from there. What's the Audio store in chesterfield Mall? To be quite honest I think it be hard to find a lot of recommendations in stores around here. I know there is ton of Klipsch, Kef B&W and stuff like that. Not sure if I will find Paradigm, and the like.

Dono
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
Thanks I am going to hit up every shop I can find within an hour or so drive. I actually live in Wentzville. I have been to the Sound Room several times in my life, I have been an audio nut since I was a wee lad. The Speaker store sounds familiar, HI FI FO Fum is decent too I believe, I got my Alpine from there. What's the Audio store in chesterfield Mall? To be quite honest I think it be hard to find a lot of recommendations in stores around here. I know there is ton of Klipsch, Kef B&W and stuff like that. Not sure if I will find Paradigm, and the like.

Dono
My personal opinion, I don't like B&W......
 
gixxerific

gixxerific

Audioholic
From What I hear they are overpriced for what you get. I could be wrong there though. Boy this has gone way off topic but oh well.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I don't see why pattern of first reflection in general should be different with floorstanders as opposed to bookshelf speakers?

If you have multiple drivers, yes this will be different and if you have a large line source floorstander then first reflections will be very different, and to an extent much less noticable... but in that case we are talking about a totally different design

It is however to my knowledge obvious that some larger enclosures to an extent will have greater challenges with resonances and standing waves

If a bookshelf speaker is actually in a bookshelf, it may not have a direct line to a wall and if the first reflection comes from a highly irregular surface, it'll be diffused. First reflections from a flat, smooth surface obviously can be almost as loud as the direct sound and that sounds petty ugly. Also, when the reflected sound gets to the listener's ear(s) will determine how much of an effect it will have, and how bad it will be for the quality of the sound.

It's pretty easy to test and verified with cheap materials.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
From What I hear they are overpriced for what you get. I could be wrong there though. Boy this has gone way off topic but oh well.
I certainly agree, B&W is overpriced and don't perform well, I don't get any musical pleasure listening to them.... that's not a fact but my personal opinion...


If a bookshelf speaker is actually in a bookshelf, it may not have a direct line to a wall and if the first reflection comes from a highly irregular surface, it'll be diffused. First reflections from a flat, smooth surface obviously can be almost as loud as the direct sound and that sounds petty ugly. Also, when the reflected sound gets to the listener's ear(s) will determine how much of an effect it will have, and how bad it will be for the quality of the sound.

It's pretty easy to test and verified with cheap materials.
From what I know... a bookshelf speaker put in a bookshelf will sound horrible, because of strong room boundary effects and .... I never place speakers in such a position because.... in my opinion it just doesn't work. Bookshelf speakers need "breathing space", meaning they must be well out from the walls.

first reflections is not a problem if speakers are positioned well from the wall, because your brain will actually ignore these if they are delayed to a certain degree....
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
From what I know... a bookshelf speaker put in a bookshelf will sound horrible, because of strong room boundary effects and .... I never place speakers in such a position because.... in my opinion it just doesn't work. Bookshelf speakers need "breathing space", meaning they must be well out from the walls.

first reflections is not a problem if speakers are positioned well from the wall, because your brain will actually ignore these if they are delayed to a certain degree....
The further you can place a speaker into the room the better, floorstanding or bookshelf.

Try running numbers for your room to see how close you can get to ideal for that room.
For a rectangular room, multiple the room's width by .276 and .447. The first number is the distance from speaker CL to the side walls, and the second number is the distance from the speaker baffle to the wall behind.

In the case of my room (17.5 ft wide) the numbers are 58" and 94". I rounded up.
The closer you can get the speakers to the first number, the wider the soundstage and the least problems of early reflections. I don't use any treatments other than corner bass traps.

The closer to the second number will give you a deeper soundstage. I found this to be true for some recordings, but not for others.

My normal setup is 58" and 56" respectively. If the system was just for stereo playback I'd have the speakers out to the 94". But for HT, it puts the side speakers forward of the seat, which was pushed back the same distance as the main L/R speakers came forward, to keep my 10 ft listening distance.

So my normal setup is half right and half compromised. Get the soundstage width I want, but a shallower depth.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
I have quite often ended up with very odd positions for my Duntech PCL-15 bookshelf speakers, I don't know why but they are very very demanding when it comes to placement.

Put them to close to the front wall and it sounds like they're broken, in another room I ended up with placement like 5 feet from front wall and very close to side walls :eek:

The thing is, sometimes you just don't know what really works until you try, so it's very much about trying and failing. This is also great fun and in the process you will get to know your system better too.

Some speakers are very demanding and I believe those that are very flat in the bass will certainly need to be far out from the front walls, so.... yes, this has nothing to do with speaker type but probably a lot about how they are tuned in the upper bass....

-H
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
I have quite often ended up with very odd positions for my Duntech PCL-15 bookshelf speakers, I don't know why but they are very very demanding when it comes to placement.

Put them to close to the front wall and it sounds like they're broken, in another room I ended up with placement like 5 feet from front wall and very close to side walls :eek:

The thing is, sometimes you just don't know what really works until you try, so it's very much about trying and failing. This is also great fun and in the process you will get to know your system better too.

Some speakers are very demanding and I believe those that are very flat in the bass will certainly need to be far out from the front walls, so.... yes, this has nothing to do with speaker type but probably a lot about how they are tuned in the upper bass....

-H
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup
The numbers I used in my last post I found on a thread on AVS, that linked to Cardas Audio, a company I'd never heard of before. After reading through their web site I wanted to know if the info was true or bogus.

The only way of knowing that was to run the numbers for my room, that I showed in the last post, as I had played around with my main L/R locations and figured I had found the best locations.
When the calculated distance from speakers to the side walls were within an inch of where my speakers were I knew the info was good.
So I'd recommend finding those numbers for any given room and placing the speakers as close as possible to get the best soundstage.
 
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haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup
The numbers I used in my last post I found on a thread on AVS, that linked to Cardas Audio, a company I'd never heard of before. After reading through their web site I wanted to know if the info was true or bogus.

The only way of knowing that was to run the numbers for my room, that I showed in the last post, as I had played around with my main L/R locations and figured I had found the best locations.
When the calculated distance from speakers to the side walls were within an inch of where my speakers were I knew the info was good.
So I'd recommend finding those numbers for any given room and placing the speakers as close as possible to get the best soundstage.
I certainly agree with all kinds of scientific approaches to these things, and certainly looks like something very well worth trying out :D

Still, there;s probably a million things that influence speaker positioning....
I just suggest that we don't know everything and also, try other settings too.
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
I certainly agree with all kinds of scientific approaches to these things, and certainly looks like something very well worth trying out :D

Still, there;s probably a million things that influence speaker positioning....
I just suggest that we don't know everything and also, try other settings too.
I was really recommending that as a starting point. All rooms are different, may or may not work. First, that ratio is only for a rectangular room.

But the fact that I already had my mains located to what the first calcuated dimension came to told me that there had to be some truth to it.

And if I had a set of speakers that were known to be difficult to position, I'd try that first and either leave them or work them in/out from that point if it didn't seem to work.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
I was really recommending that as a starting point. All rooms are different, may or may not work. First, that ratio is only for a rectangular room.

But the fact that I already had my mains located to what the first calcuated dimension came to told me that there had to be some truth to it.

And if I had a set of speakers that were known to be difficult to position, I'd try that first and either leave them or work them in/out from that point if it didn't seem to work.
Looks like we agree 100%


Actually, b.t.w.....

German brand Audio Physic know a lot about speakers...
And there's a setup guide too
http://www.audiophysic.com/aufstellung/index_e.html
 
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DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
Looks like we agree 100%


Actually, b.t.w.....

German brand Audio Physic know a lot about speakers...
And there's a setup guide too
http://www.audiophysic.com/aufstellung/index_e.html
I was just reading on that site you linked to. I'm dialed right in as far as the difference between the total distance from speaker to side wall~wall to seat - distance from speaker to seat.
And I totally agree with the 1.3m distance from the back wall for bass, which is about what I have.
But the 1/2m from the side wall I have to disagree with. That, in my room, would be a contradiction to keeping the difference of 5.6 ft, or more, between total reflective distances - direct distance.
It is very good reading.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
I was just reading on that site you linked to. I'm dialed right in as far as the difference between the total distance from speaker to side wall~wall to seat - distance from speaker to seat.
And I totally agree with the 1.3m distance from the back wall for bass, which is about what I have.
But the 1/2m from the side wall I have to disagree with. That, in my room, would be a contradiction to keeping the difference of 5.6 ft, or more, between total reflective distances - direct distance.
It is very good reading.
Well it's not an exact science.
But agree, think this is very good input.......

And Audio physic is keen on setting speakers "the other way" along the long side of the room.... Could be worth a try :D
 
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DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
Well it's not an exact science.
But agree, think this is very good input.......
Setting up a speaker system using those two sites, (Cardas Audio and Audio physic ) together, pretty much, gets you to the same speaker locations, making minor adjustments for a particular room.
In other words, the ratio I used for the side distance dialed it right in for needing a 5.6 ft difference, or more, to make the early reflections meaningless. Which is what I figured I had.
Working with those two sites together really will get a person on the right path for proper setup.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
Setting up a speaker system using those two sites, (Cardas Audio and Audio physic ) together, pretty much, gets you to the same speaker locations, making minor adjustments for a particular room.
In other words, the ratio I used for the side distance dialed it right in for needing a 5.6 ft difference, or more, to make the early reflections meaningless. Which is what I figured I had.
Working with those two sites together really will get a person on the right path for proper setup.
At least a good thing it explains a few things and provides valuable background info too
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I certainly agree, B&W is overpriced and don't perform well, I don't get any musical pleasure listening to them.... that's not a fact but my personal opinion...




From what I know... a bookshelf speaker put in a bookshelf will sound horrible, because of strong room boundary effects and .... I never place speakers in such a position because.... in my opinion it just doesn't work. Bookshelf speakers need "breathing space", meaning they must be well out from the walls.

first reflections is not a problem if speakers are positioned well from the wall, because your brain will actually ignore these if they are delayed to a certain degree....
Makes you wonder why they originally called them "bookshelf speakers", doesn't it?
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
The thing is, sometimes you just don't know what really works until you try, so it's very much about trying and failing. This is also great fun and in the process you will get to know your system better too.
I absolutely agree with you on this. Ultimately, it's what sounds best to the listener and all of the trial and error can help a person listen more critically. Unfortunately, that can be a double-edged sword. At some point, just listening to the music has to become the goal.

I have never owned a boom box.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
There are three things that determine sound quality:

1) The thing interpreting the sound (your brain - via your ears) ;)

2) The room in which the speakers are being used

3) The thing producing the sound (the speakers - driven by an amplified source signal)

The order in which I've listed those three things is also the order of importance.

The first thing you have to know is: how is your hearing? Most of us have some hearing loss. We all lose some of our hearing sensitivity as we get older, but by no means do we all lose our hearing to an equal degree or in an equal way. Ask you doctor for a referral to get your hearing tested. It's an interesting experience. I like to get my hearing tested every few years or so.

I recently went and got my hearing tested. I'm 27 and I take some care to try and protect my hearing, but the recent test showed that I'm really not hearing much above 16.5 kHz anymore. Furthermore, I have some hearing loss in my right ear, but not my left ear. I had an ear infection in my right ear - it's likely the cause and culprit for my hearing loss in that ear. It's not severe, but I do have some hearing loss in the treble frequencies in my right ear.

Why know this stuff? Because it's all fine and dandy to go on and on about flat frequency response, anechoic frequency response, +/-3dB response, blah, blah, blah - but ultimately, it's my ears that do the listening - not some frequency response graph - and if my ear do not have flat frequency response, I need to know that so that I know why I'm hearing what I'm hearing.

So in my case, there's a good chance I'd prefer speakers with a slightly tipped up high end. I know that I have some hearing loss in the highest frequencies, so I know beforehand that a truly ruler flat speaker isn't going to sound ruler flat to me.

Once the most important factor (your own hearing) is known, it's on the analyzing the room. It's the room that determines the frequency response that actually reaches your ears. The sound may come out of the speakers ruler flat, but once it interacts with the room, what actually reaches your ears is totally different!

There are a number of ways to deal with your room. You can hire a professional to come to your home with some rather expensive test equipment. He or she will take real time measurements and acoustically map your room. This costs a pretty penny though and any time you move anything, it changes all of the measurements! So unless this is a truly dedicated room and you are really prepared to make the investment, hiring a professional is usually beyond the price an average person would want to spend.

On the opposite end of the spectrum are the built in "auto room correction" programs built into receivers. Programs such as Audyssey's MultEQ or Yamaha's YPAO or Pioneer's MCACC. Some of these actually do a pretty decent job, but you are more or less at the mercy of the built in programming.

A new technique that is emerging though is that companies like Auralex and Ready Acoustics are offering real world measurement in the lowest cost form possible. Auralex is about to launch this new service - Ready Acoustics is already doing it. Basically, they send to some test tones and give you some suggestions on what microphone to use. You connect the mic to your laptop, run the test tones and send all the data back to the company. They analyze it and report back to you with an overview of your room's acoustical map and suggestions on how you can improve the acoustics in your room using their acoustic treatment products. I love the idea of this service :)

After you've taken care of the two most important aspects - your own hearing and the room - the speakers you chose to create the sound are almost an after thought.

There's no hard and fast rule as to whether towers are better than bookshelf speakers or vice versa. In most cases, it's really only a matter of how low you want the speakers to be able to play before they cross over to a subwoofer. I am personally in strong agreement with THX in the suggestion that you cross over the speakers to the subwoofer at 80Hz. If you go along with that suggestion, tower speakers are typically not necessary.

Tower speakers can also typically play louder - simply by virtue of having more and/or larger drivers and having more cabinet space for greater air movement and resonance. Most of the benefit of being able to move more air has effect on the mid-bass and bass though, so once again, if you are crossing over to a subwoofer at 80Hz, it makes much less difference. A good portion of the mid-bass though is still handled by the speaker. In a very large room, a bookshelf speaker may struggle to reproduce the 80Hz - 300Hz range with enough loudness for the room size. In that case, a tower speaker would likely be the better choice.

So once again, it is the room's size that determines the choice of speaker. Regardless of the room's size, I would recommend using a subwoofer. Bass frequencies are the most prone to drastically altered frequency response due to interactions with the room. In my opinion, it is vital to be able to position what ever speaker is producing the bass in the position that is closest to ideal. It is typically impossible to accomplish this goal if you are running the main speakers "full range". You are bound by the desire for a good soundstand and imaging to position the speakers in a certain location at the front of the room. But this is typically not the best position for bass response. So instead, it is best to seperate the bass and allow it to be produced by a subwoofer that can be positioned in the ideal location while the main speakers remain in the best position for soundstage and imaging.

Best of luck!
Actually hearing out to 16.5 Hz at 27 is very good. Most people even when they are young fall off the curve above 16 Hz. I remember playing about with my oscillator when I was very young, and never remember a time when I could hear above 16 Hz. Generally audiologists only test to 15 KHz.

Now I'm 62 I can hear to 10 KHz easily and its gone above 12KHz. That is very good for my age.

It does not follow however that these HF losses will direct you to bright speakers. I still hate them, and can pick them out, as brightness starts well before that. I have not noted that any of my also aging friends are going out looking for brighter speakers, so I don't think your argument is valid.

I think that is because a very flat mid band response on and off axis, is what draws individuals to fine speakers again and again. That critical region from 250 Hz to around 7 KHz
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
TLS- have you noticed that extreme highs (musical spectrum) causes an annoying sensation or do you just not hear the higher frequencies?
 
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