Total novice after some advice from those in the know

[cosmos]

As part of a community cinema we are in the process of setting up we have a budget up to $5,000 for the sound. We have received a few quotes and no 2 recommendations are the same, to date they have been
Denon AVR230BK (firstly recommended with Behringer 212 speakers and then changed to Wharfedale Pro)
Onkyo TXSR875 (Klipsch Speakers wall mounted)
Onkyo SR805 (klipsch speakers only the rear are wall mounted)
Yamaha RXV1800V (Accusound Theta TH 200/300 5.1)

The space we are using is 44 ft deep x 24 ft wide and just over 11 ft high, not sure how much information is helpful but the space is carpeted and we are aiming for groups of between 40 & 70 people. It was suggested to me that the sound from floor standing speakers would be absorbed by the first few rows of people and this would have a negative impact on the sound.

I'm finding all the conflicting advice regarding projectors quite overwhelming and have only just started to research the receivers and not quite sure if my brain can handle much more!

Any advice or recommendations is greatly appreciated, thanks.

and I've just realised that this is one of those threads that you probably all dislike.................................
sorry.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

How many speakers are you buying? A Subwoofer also?

With a room that big, you definitely need some serious power. Of the choices you gave, I would go with the Onkyo 805.

 

[TLS Guy]

As part of a community cinema we are in the process of setting up we have a budget up to $5,000 for the sound. We have received a few quotes and no 2 recommendations are the same, to date they have been
Denon AVR230BK (firstly recommended with Behringer 212 speakers and then changed to Wharfedale Pro)
Onkyo TXSR875 (Klipsch Speakers wall mounted)
Onkyo SR805 (klipsch speakers only the rear are wall mounted)
Yamaha RXV1800V (Accusound Theta TH 200/300 5.1)

The space we are using is 44 ft deep x 24 ft wide and just over 11 ft high, not sure how much information is helpful but the space is carpeted and we are aiming for groups of between 40 & 70 people. It was suggested to me that the sound from floor standing speakers would be absorbed by the first few rows of people and this would have a negative impact on the sound.

I'm finding all the conflicting advice regarding projectors quite overwhelming and have only just started to research the receivers and not quite sure if my brain can handle much more!

Any advice or recommendations is greatly appreciated, thanks.

and I've just realised that this is one of those threads that you probably all dislike.................................
sorry.

I think your budget is far too low for that installation. That is a big space and will have a significant number of people that absorb sound.

An installation as big as that needs to be built round pro equipment.

I would definitely not use a receiver, it will be pushed too hard, make too much heat and have a short life. I would use an AV preamp and a preferably professional powered speakers, or else some hefty rack mounted amps.

I would approach this as a much more formidable engineering problem, than you are now.

 

[cosmos]

Thanks for the responses, yes all the quotes included 2 front, 2 rear, a centre and a sub woofer and I just realised that I had these 2 mixed up (I tell you this is stressful business)

Onkyo SR805 (Accusound Theta TH 200/300 5.1)
Yamaha RXV1800V (klipsch speakers only the rear are wall mounted)

All up our equipment budget is $14,000 thats Australian, but this must include installation, cables, mounts, dvd, projector and screen. With a bit of help I have roughly worked out that installation and cabling will be around $3,000 add in $700 for the PS3 or Blu Ray DVD (I really would like to go HD) that leaves us with not much more than $10,000 for projector, screen and the sound and to get the projector I want (or think I want) I'm going to need that $5,000 once you add in a screen, which leaves $5,000 for sound.

This whole project is a youth based project and is about creating some entertainment in our country town for young people. We have no cinema here or entertainment facilities and no public transport facilities to access the closest cinema (100 km round trip).

We are trying to create somewhere the young people will want to come, meet up with there mates and have somewhere just to hang out, with the possibility of hooking up some gaming consoles on occasion.

TLS Guy but your way over my head here, sorry (I'm just an artist working with young folk who thought this sounded like a good idea at the time) I realise we have huge limitations with what we are trying to do but hopefully with our budget we can create something a bit special.

Thanks again for the info (off to google AV preamp)

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for the responses, yes all the quotes included 2 front, 2 rear, a centre and a sub woofer and I just realised that I had these 2 mixed up (I tell you this is stressful business)

Onkyo SR805 (Accusound Theta TH 200/300 5.1)
Yamaha RXV1800V (klipsch speakers only the rear are wall mounted)

All up our equipment budget is $14,000 thats Australian, but this must include installation, cables, mounts, dvd, projector and screen. With a bit of help I have roughly worked out that installation and cabling will be around $3,000 add in $700 for the PS3 or Blu Ray DVD (I really would like to go HD) that leaves us with not much more than $10,000 for projector, screen and the sound and to get the projector I want (or think I want) I'm going to need that $5,000 once you add in a screen, which leaves $5,000 for sound.

This whole project is a youth based project and is about creating some entertainment in our country town for young people. We have no cinema here or entertainment facilities and no public transport facilities to access the closest cinema (100 km round trip).

We are trying to create somewhere the young people will want to come, meet up with there mates and have somewhere just to hang out, with the possibility of hooking up some gaming consoles on occasion.

TLS Guy but your way over my head here, sorry (I'm just an artist working with young folk who thought this sounded like a good idea at the time) I realise we have huge limitations with what we are trying to do but hopefully with our budget we can create something a bit special.

Thanks again for the info (off to google AV preamp)

The problem is that you are out of a domestic environment with your project.

You have a space of around 3200 cu.ft, that may house as many as 70 people. This is a far cry form a domestic room with one to six or eight people watching a movie.

The issue is one of scaling. Most domestic speakers are not efficient enough, and do not have enough coverage for this application. The result will be poor coverage and clarity and over stressed amps and problems.

The most difficult part of your system to engineer will be the audio, and that needs well over half of your budget.

You will need a high efficiency pro horn set up to get proper coverage of your space with 70 people in it.

Now you have a firm in Australia that have made good cinema speakers for years. It is Krix. I would get in touch with them for a start.

http://krix.com.au/Product/Catalogue.aspx?p=62

Now I would definitely use active powered crossovers and NOT passive types. Results will be far superior in this environment with active crossovers.

Now Behringer have a cost effective line of crossovers and pro amps to drive the speakers. Their Australian agents are QualiFi.

http://www.behringer.com/05_support/service_template.cfm?lang=Eng

http://www.qualifi.com.au/index.jsp?page=1109

These individuals are also the agents for Marantz.

http://www.marantz.jp/ap/oceania.html

Marantz are just coming out with a new AV preamp supporting HDMI.

http://us.marantz.com/Products/2317.asp

Now in terms of video I would use an acoustically transparent screen and put the the three front speakers behind the screen.

The bottom line is that the speakers, electronic crossovers and amps need to be pro models that will work in your application.

Other pro cinema speakers are JBL.

http://jblpro.com/pages/cinema/2way_scrn_ary.htm

Klipsch.

https://www.klipsch.com/products/lists/professional-cinema.aspx

For the speakers especially do not be tempted to use domestic speakers, you will really regret it if you do.

 

[PENG]

Pro equipment are great for your applications but for prepros, the Yamaha RX-V661, 663, 861 could be good alternatives too. They all cost under $500 in the US.

http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-V663BL-7-1-Channel-Theater-Receiver/dp/B0013ZGOWY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1215958164&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-V861BL-7-1-Channel-XM-Ready-Receiver/dp/B000PCEG58/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1215958164&sr=1-4

They all have pre-outs for connecting to external amplifiers.
For pro amps, the Behringer seems to offer one of the best watts to dollar ratio. You now have no shortage of links, thanks to TLS Guy.

 

[TLS Guy]

Pro equipment are great for your applications but for prepros, the Yamaha RX-V661, 663, 861 could be good alternatives too. They all cost under $500 in the US.

http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-V663BL-7-1-Channel-Theater-Receiver/dp/B0013ZGOWY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1215958164&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-V861BL-7-1-Channel-XM-Ready-Receiver/dp/B000PCEG58/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1215958164&sr=1-4

They all have pre-outs for connecting to external amplifiers.
For pro amps, the Behringer seems to offer one of the best watts to dollar ratio. You now have no shortage of links, thanks to TLS Guy.

A receiver with pre outs may well save you some dollars. You will not be using the amps in the unit, but due to production volumes you will probably pay less for a unit that has amps you won't use.

The only thing is that the connections will be RCA unbalanced. It would be nice if you could use balanced outs from preamp to crossovers, and place the amps and crossovers in proximity to the speakers. Balanced lines can have long runs without picking up interference and causing signal degradation.

That would be the pro way to do it in an installation like that.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

All up our equipment budget is $14,000 thats Australian, but this must include installation, cables, mounts, dvd, projector and screen. With a bit of help I have roughly worked out that installation and cabling will be around $3,000 add in $700 for the PS3 or Blu Ray DVD (I really would like to go HD) that leaves us with not much more than $10,000 for projector, screen and the sound and to get the projector I want (or think I want) I'm going to need that $5,000 once you add in a screen, which leaves $5,000 for sound.

$14,000 Australian = $13,545 USD.

Installation is not that difficult. I would not waste all that money for installation. $3,000 is a lot that could go into better equipments.

Projector screen: get a pull-down type. Easy to install and easy to use and costs less than the other types - $700 USD.
Projector: Epson Home 1080 UB -- bright and good picture - $3,000 USD.

Speakers: DefTech BP7004 x 5 speakers = $4,250 USD.
These come with built-in 300-watts 10" powered subwoofers so you will have FIVE subwoofers. Thus you will not need to buy a separate subwoofer.

Your room is 44' x 24' x 11' = 11,600 cubic feet = LARGE.

This leaves you with $5,600 USD to spend on the receiver/amp - IF you do the installations yourself. Just buy cheap cables.

I say just get the Yamaha 3800 for $1,700 USD because those DefTech speakers are pretty efficient due to the built-in subwoofers. If the sound is not good enough, then you could always add an external 5 channel amp.

The 40G PS3 is $400 USD.

This leaves you with $3,500 USD.

 

[cosmos]

Thanks for the information it is a great help, some of the issues we are facing are the 1080 is probably going to cost $3,500 (if I'm lucky, up to $5,000 if I'm not) and pull down screens (which I would prefer, no electrician) at the size we want seem to be as rare as hens teeth in Australia, but I have found a few more screen suppliers last night that I will contact today.

The 40G PS3 is $700 here and as for installing it myself, well I am so far out of my comfort zone here it's not funny, but we have had one quote with a very reasonable installation fee. Installation quotes have varied from $800 to $2,000.

Ok well I'm heading out to make lots of phone calls to lots of suppliers today and will take all this info with me, thanks again.

 

[PENG]

The only thing is that the connections will be RCA unbalanced. It would be nice if you could use balanced outs from preamp to crossovers, and place the amps and crossovers in proximity to the speakers. Balanced lines can have long runs without picking up interference and causing signal degradation.

That's true, can't argue with that fact.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.
You have a space of around 3200 cu.ft, that may house as many as 70 people. This is a far cry form a domestic room with one to six or eight people watching a movie.
do.

Crunch those number again, or check what you came up with I think 11,616 cu ft is closer

 

[mtrycrafts]

Thanks for the information it is a great help, some of the issues we are facing are the 1080 is probably going to cost $3,500 (if I'm lucky, up to $5,000 if I'm not) and pull down screens (which I would prefer, no electrician) at the size we want seem to be as rare as hens teeth in Australia, but I have found a few more screen suppliers last night that I will contact today.

The 40G PS3 is $700 here and as for installing it myself, well I am so far out of my comfort zone here it's not funny, but we have had one quote with a very reasonable installation fee. Installation quotes have varied from $800 to $2,000.

Ok well I'm heading out to make lots of phone calls to lots of suppliers today and will take all this info with me, thanks again.

A few more questions and more fuel to your fire being out of your league

What kind of a room is it besides having carpets? Anything on the walls or ceilings? If not, that room is certainly large enough to be an echo chamber and anything in there will sound terrible.

What quality of a setup are you after? What size screen were you thinking? I bet your expectation for that $5k projector may be way too high. You are talking about a serious room with a good number of people that would need a good size screen that would need sufficient light output on screen.

Also, if these will be chairs on a level floor, wow, I feel for the people beyond a few rows. Don't want to disappoint but this project is well beyond a home installation and into a small commercial operation.

You should consider very sensitive speakers to fill that space with sound.

Perhaps a final point of thought, for your local and country laws on showing movies to an audience also needs to be considered, even for a community theater.

 

[cosmos]

Ok one thing I did manage to check earlier on was the echo, there is none. It is carpeted has heavy drapes all the way down one of the long walls and the wall opposite has vertical blinds all the way along. The end the screen is planned also has a heavy drape that covers a large counter that leads to a kitchen this also blocks off with big wooden drop down door kind of things. The motorised screen will drop down in front of this drape. The ceiling is kind of a rough textured plaster finish and the building is brick.

Initially we were imaging big screen and have had everything from 130" to 200" screens recommended for the space, I'm thinking a 150" to 160" 16:9 is big enough. This would leave about 43" from the bottom of the screen to the floor, yes the floor is flat but we are starved for entertainment and if we were regularly getting 60+ people we would look at other options as it will be a success for us.

We have looked into the regulations about showing movies and will be paying royalties, this also limits what movies we can actually show as there are lists to choose from.

Well not much luck with the pro speaker guys, Krix gave me another number to call, which I did and emailed the photos and details to, but still waiting to hear from them.

I can try to post some photos if you like.

 

[cosmos]

Ok an explanation, the first photo shows the end the screen will go, yes I know it is very bright but all the lights were on and curtains were open. The other day when all the blinds/curtains were shut and lights off and an overcast day it was quite dim in there, with any ambient light coming from the right when you look toward the kitchen end.

We will be screening at night, but if the project is a moderate or raging success then we would probably want to screen during the day on occasion and could take steps to control that light more.

The idea of using it for gaming has come up and I'm not sure if there are copyright issues involved with that, but we will look into it.

I know the venue is far from ideal but unless we look at using local halls (wooden floors, no heating, dodgy loos etc.) or the auditorium next to this room (more expensive, massive room to fill, wooden floors) this is what we have to use.

 

[cosmos]

 

[TLS Guy]

Crunch those number again, or check what you came up with I think 11,616 cu ft is closer

Woops! I have no idea how I did that!

 

[TLS Guy]

Ok an explanation, the first photo shows the end the screen will go, yes I know it is very bright but all the lights were on and curtains were open. The other day when all the blinds/curtains were shut and lights off and an overcast day it was quite dim in there, with any ambient light coming from the right when you look toward the kitchen end.

We will be screening at night, but if the project is a moderate or raging success then we would probably want to screen during the day on occasion and could take steps to control that light more.

The idea of using it for gaming has come up and I'm not sure if there are copyright issues involved with that, but we will look into it.

I know the venue is far from ideal but unless we look at using local halls (wooden floors, no heating, dodgy loos etc.) or the auditorium next to this room (more expensive, massive room to fill, wooden floors) this is what we have to use.

Do you have pictures of the auditorium? That looks more promising. You will fill it easily with efficient horn type speakers.

Don't forget the floor will be covered by chairs and people, so I would not worry about the wooden floors.

Either room will require high efficiency speakers. Domestic Hi-Fi speakers will be no use at all.

May be if you look around you will be able to find a disused Cinema that still has Altec Voice of the theater bass and HF horns. They would fill your large space with about 10 watts of amplifier power. The real key to your situation is getting speakers with sensitivity in the range of 96 to 103 db 1 watt one meter.

 

[anamorphic96]

Stay away from domestic hifi speakers for this situation.

Front - Take a look at the JBL 3622 or the Klipsch KPT-325 for the front speakers.

Surround - Take a look at the smaller surround speakers from JBL and Klipsch. 4 surround speakers would be ideal.

Subwoofer - Look at the Klipsch 684 or the JBL 4645. One of these subs would be plenty in that room.

Two 4 channel amps from QSC (qscaudio.com) could take care of the power requirements in room that size.

I would also look at one of the 500 to 800 dollar receivers as a pre-amp processor.

 

[cosmos]

Well these are the two suggestions that have come through for the for commercial audio setup, this really is way over my head but I have been assured that these setups would work in a bigger space if eventually we moved elsewhere.

DTR-5.8
XM & SIRIUS Ready, 2-Zone 7.1 Channel
Surround Receiver- Rack Mountable Used for processing purposes only

Australian Monitor Commercial Stereo
Amp
The AMAV AV2.2P is a 1 RU stereo power amplifier. Designed for the demanding commercial audio-visual market, the AV2.2P delivers 100
watts per channel at 4 ohms from an elegant, slim line package. The
AV2.2P features front panel dual colour status LEDs, on board limiter,
ground lift switch and the option of bridged operation delivering
200 watts at 8 ohms.2 x 100 watts @ 4 ohm / 2 x 75 watts @ 8 ohm
1 RU chassis Convection cooled design for whisper
REQUIRE 3 x UNITS
OUTPUT

Turbosound Impact 55T x5
Compact passive 2-way speaker with a 5" LF driver and a 1" ferrofluid
tweeter plus integral multi-tapped line transformer. Compatible wit
brackets and OmniMount brackets, and includes 3/8" mic stand fitting. Weather resistant to IP54.
• 160Watt Output at 8ohms

Peavey PRSub
Rated at 400 watts program and 800 watts peak.It is simple to use, just connect your full-range signal and its internal crossover does the rest.
One 15" premium 2.5 inch voice coil woofer

and the second recommendation

Denon AVR2308
• Identical quality and power for all 7 channels,
100W x 7ch
• New 32 bit floating point DSP
• Compressed Audio Restorer
Denon's new audio technology forMP3/WMA/AAC compressed format to
reproduce higher frequency range and deeper bass sound.
•Latest version Mult EQ
-New tower type microphone for more accurate measuring
-Maximum six points measurement
-New filtering ALFC (Adaptive Low Frequency Correction) for higher resolution
processing in low frequency band.
• HD Video Circuit
-Discrete and latest devices for ultimate HD video performance in each block.
-Faroudja DCDi Processing up to 1080p
-Analog to HDMI up conversion

TOA Commercial HD Series (rear speakers)
• Variable impedance allows for
flexible installations
• 90 watts continuous

TOA Variable dispersion HX-5 (front and
centre)
The HX-5 is an innovative modular speaker design that incorporates the best characteristics of the traditional, cumbersome woofer enclosure combined with a CD horn-loaded high frequency driver and the fullrange
compact speaker enclosure without the drawbacks associated with each type.
• 600watt continuous power

The auditorium was used for film about 15 years ago on a short term basis and was stopped due to low patronage and poor sound quality. This is a massive space and the balcony alone seats 150 people, I can remember seeing films there as a child and it seemed big, cavernous & cold. It is a wonderful space for theatre but the ceilings are probably 30-40 ft and a crowd of 100 would rattle around in there.

Before they stopped showing movies they had moved the audience into the balcony which is carpeted and this worked well (except for the dodgy sound I believe)

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If you want a huge screen (150-200"), you might also look at the Optoma HD81-LV projector. This thing was tested to crank out almost 3,000 Lumens. After adjusting the settings, the colors and picture quality are excellent, and the brightness and contrast is practically unmatched for 1080p HD projectors less than $10,000:

http://www.projectorreviews.com/optoma/hd81-lv/

http://electronics.pricegrabber.com/projectors/m/62067518/search=optoma hd81-LV/st=query/

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