J

jjackkrash

Audioholic Intern
I don't have a dog in the fight, but that does seem like the Rythmik rolls off pretty fast after 80Hz. I run B&W N804's--not exactly low end satellites--and I like to cross them over higher than 80Hz and let my SubM HP pull a little more of the load down low. I know the SubM is flat to almost 200Hz, I wonder why the Rythmik rolls off so fast?
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
I don't have a dog in the fight, but that does seem like the Rythmik rolls off pretty fast after 80Hz. I run B&W N804's--not exactly low end satellites--and I like to cross them over higher than 80Hz and let my SubM HP pull a little more of the load down low. I know the SubM is flat to almost 200Hz, I wonder why the Rythmik rolls off so fast?
I don't think the Rythmik has output issues above 80Hz (see below):



The Submersive is a darn impressive sub, though. I'd bet it has more midbass punch.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
These are the subs I used to own. 15" isobaric down firing. Two of then did a great job. 10k for both with no amps.
 
A

ack_bak

Audioholic
I don't think the Rythmik has output issues above 80Hz (see below):



The Submersive is a darn impressive sub, though. I'd bet it has more midbass punch.
Agreed. The Ryhtmilk is hitting 2db higher in 2port mode (consistently across higher frequency ranges) than the SVS PB13 Ultra which costs considerably more and gets high praise. In fact in 31hz and 40z it as the most output of all the commercial subs AH/Ricci ha tested.

I really don't undstand the issue here.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Let's.



Garbage, utter garbage.

A sub that starts rolling off at ~60Hz just isn't good enough for a high-fidelity system. It's a boom box, that's all.

Note that the crossover setting was "120Hz" for those measurements. Which is just plain dishonest.
I don't know about garbage, but as with any crossover its nice to have drivers with a smooth response to around an octave above crossover. You can't always get it, but for optimal integration that is what is required.

That is why I'm always pushing for higher bandwidth drivers.

On another issue the least talked about parameter, and one of the most important issues is system Qt. For most subs it is far too high.

This does go to the issue of too much sub. High Qt subs are far from optimal, but a large room with a lot of bass leakage (openings) goes a long way to concealing the defect. However put a powerful high Qt sub in a small closed room and you have a disaster. This is where this refrain of "too much sub for the room" has originated. A low Qt sub won't care what sized room it is in.

I discussed this issue as part of a reply to some questions by Seth=L in another post and her is some of it especially concerning the Q of resonances.

Now speakers. These are mechanical devices and have both mechanical non linearity and resonant modes, both mechanical and electrical. However these ills manifest themselves they can only do via the generation of sine waves which we call harmonic distortion.

If a driver is pushed beyond it mechanical limits (xmax) then it won't produce a symmetrical sine wave, so if the output is different from the input there has to be added sines waves or harmonic distortion.

Now all speaker systems have resonance. For one every driver, because it is springy has resonance the Fs. There is also the box resonance in a sealed enclosure and the box tuning resonance in ported and ABR tupe enclosures like your Supercube I (Fb). Pipes like TLs have a pipe resonance (Fp).

Now every resonance has a spread. This spread is defined by Q, or quality of the resonances. Low Q resonances are narrow and high Q resonances wide. Resonances also have amplitude, which is their output contribution.

Now the worst resonances are high amplitude and high Q.

Now one fact to keep in mind about speakers. The Q of the total system can NEVER be lower than the Qts of the driver, which is derived from the driver mechanical and electrical resonances. Qt of the whole system will always be quite a bit higher than the Qts of the driver. That is why I personally avoid using high Qts drivers in designs.

The next issue is that Fs pretty much sets the lowest useful bass extension of the driver, and for most it will be a bit above Fs and for some quite a bit above. Some low Qts drivers can be driven below Fs, because the Q of the resonance is narrow and therefore not objectionable.

Now in a sealed enclosure the distortion is dependent on the drivers behavior, and in general distortion will rise quickly below Fs and in general it is a good idea to have a high pass filter engaged around Fs. All of the sound is produced by the movement of the driver cone or cones.

Now in ported or ABR enclosure, there is a deliberate intent to create a resonance to control cone motion and and augment the driver output with this tuning with optimal matching of Fb and Fs. In this region, the cone of the driver is pretty much stationary and almost all the output comes from the port or the ABR. The output is usually 180 degrees out of phase with the driver, so there is cancellation, but port or ABR output is so dominant it is not significant. This waveform has a huge harmonic content, but fortunately at these frequencies the ear is not very sensitive. There is because of this, significant time delay between driver and port or ABR.

Below the F3 of the system the driver decouples from the box and output falls fourth order for ports and nearer sixth order for ABRs. As output falls harmonic distortion rises off the clock.

In a TL only odd harmonics are generated and can be controlled by driver placement at the node of the dominant third harmonic and by damping. With driver Q in the 0.3 to 0.35 range and correct damping to suppress the impedance peak of tuning, the Qt of the system can be brought to the 0.5 range, and still have useful port output to reinforce the driver with comparatively very low distortion. Since the pressure in the pipe at the driver is very high, the driver excursion is very well controlled and mechanical distortion minimized. In low bass long lines however time delays are highly significant due to the time it takes the sound to traverse the line.

In my view the quality of the bass really comes down to system Qt more than anything. I find that the vast majority of systems have too high a Qt. This leads to bass blooming and excess excitation of room bass modes. The bloom and distortion from this poorly controlled resonance Qt is easily recognizable. It destroys the definition of double basses, cello strings, bass piano strings deep organ notes, bass drums and I could go on and on.

This problem is so prevalent that listeners have come to expect it, especially long time owners of audio systems. In fact a period of readjustment I find is almost always required when encountering a properly damped low Qt system. However almost always after a period of reorientation, they return to their systems for ever dissatisfied.

So low Q systems can only be built around sealed enclosures, TLs, open baffles, infinite baffles and with limitations coupled cavity systems. In the later two, Q is set by the drivers. However the driver is unconstrained and so linear driver design becomes of paramount importance. Multiple large drivers are required for infinite baffle and open baffle systems really can't achieve the dynamic range required for all sources.

So that leaves the sealed enclosure. Unfortunately when selecting a low Q driver cut off will be quite a bit higher than Fs. Therefore large amplifier power and robust drivers, with huge linear xmax numbers are required, to tolerate the huge bass boost Eq required.

Horns can get you there as well, but the enclosure are huge and distortion in horns is high.

If you have the space, that leaves the TL as my favored solution. I think they do sound better in room than sealed enclosures, because of the phenomenon of encirclement from pipes, where you have much more even distribution of sound throughout the space.

The coupled cavity has some attractions, as the designer usually was wide control over Q. However all output is from the port and relatively high and rises with the order of the design. As Q is lowered obviously the operating bandwidth narrows. If you don't believe this just go and listen to the boomy bass of the wide bandwidth of the Bose Acoustimass band pass bass modules! So I do use this, but just as augmentation to a speaker with already decent bass performance, where narrow bandwidth augmentation of an octave or less is required.
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
Haha Irv, thats exactly what gets said about my VTF-15H!! Just yesterday my wifes friend was over, who has been over countless times & even watched multiple movies, looks over at the sub & asks: "Whow did you get a new 'speaker'? That thing is huge!". She said she only noticed it because i had the grill off. Fortunately i have a good corner for it that helps it blend in.

I agee with the statement on needing more midbass as opposed to just running the subwoofer hot to compensate for weak mains. Thats the exact reason i went with the MBM-12. Even though it doesnt reach anywhere near the 500hz region, it really gives a killer slam in the 50-100hz range. I would love to have mains that were as capable as the JTRs for that impact. I cant stand when a system has weak speakers & a massive sub ran hot & sounding muddy!!
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
Did you read the entire article which explains why? I think you've got a vendetta against Rythmik and are acting like a complete fool. I wouldn't listen to anything DS-21 says folks, not concerning subwoofers. He's trolling Rythmik.
I'm sorry if an objective viewpoint offends you.

I'm also sorry that you expect so little from your gear that the posted top-end rolloff with a highpass control set to "120Hz" is acceptable to you.

A high-fidelity system will overlap the mains and the sub well into the modal region, to maximally flatten room response. That means that each subs should really be good to beyond 200Hz.

That said, there's an alternate method of serious system design that uses multiple smaller and/or more efficient subs to overlap with the mains in the modal region (~50 - ~150Hz), AND a single sub to cover the "first mode" region (<50Hz). The Rythmik would be a fine ULF sub in that application. Though if I were doing that kind of system I'd use a 4th order bandpass ULF sub, because they can pressurize a small room below cutoff, whereas a vented sub goes dipole below port tuning and cannot pressurize a small room below cutoff. (Why 4th order BP over sealed? Higher efficiency.)

As for distortion, we're talking low bass. As long as it's not outlandish, who cares about it? It's simply not a perceptually relevant factor. ESPECIALLY when the reduction is in sonically benign second order distortion! So basically, all the servo does is game THD numbers by reducing the most sonically benign (and overweighted) form of distortion in the THD index.

The Rythmik servo mechanism solves a "problem" that isn't one, 2d order distortion, while introducing a major problem of limited top-end bandwidth. That's why I don't like it.

*** know the SubM is flat to almost 200Hz, I wonder why the Rythmik rolls off so fast?
Mr. Ding has commented in the past that the servo limits top-end bandwidth. Again, it's a solution in search of a nonexistent audible problem, with audibly deleterious consequences.

But make sure you at least use Kimber PBJ or "better" "interconnects" with them! :rolleyes:

I don't know about garbage, but as with any crossover its nice to have drivers with a smooth response to around an octave above crossover. You can't always get it, but for optimal integration that is what is required.

That is why I'm always pushing for higher bandwidth drivers.
Exactly. And even more is better. That's why in my reference system even the 18" driver has a top end that goes to ~700Hz, due to the ultra-low inductance NRT motor and good cone/suspension engineering. (The other drivers, all Aurasound 99.2mm voicecoil 15's and 79.4mm voicecoil 12's, go even higher.)

Even in my temporary system, I wasn't happy until I used a driver in my primarysecond sub with top-end limits of over 1kHz[/url], along with a driver in my third sub that's usable to about 350Hz.

One reason the SVS PB12 is so good is that the Peerless XXLS woofer has a motor and suspension good enough to play well out of a subwoofer's typical bandwidth.

On another issue the least talked about parameter, and one of the most important issues is system Qt. For most subs it is far too high.
Here we might part company a little bit. A few years ago I did a blind test with a sub EQ'ed to as close-as-possible-with an SMS-1 response, using a JBL W15GTi (a very, very good woofer with JBL's Differential Drive motor, good to about 700Hz, incidentally), and couldn't tell a difference with measured Qtc ranging from about .56 to almost 1. And even then, I don't know if it was the efficiency loss or the Q that made the smaller box audibly different.

The bottom line with Q is that IMO so long as one can equalize to the desired response curve, it's not a huge issue. If one doesn't have a good parametric sub EQ, IMO always err on the side of as low a Q as possible.
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
Sorry DS-21, but I don't take stock in anything you've said about Rythmik. You bias against them is blinding you, and there is nothing "objective" that you've provided that helps prove your point. The objective information we have posted does disprove your accusations, though. You're whining about a possible 1dB change in response, of which AH explains in the article? Did you even read the quotes from the AH article I posted? Did you see the CEA measurements? :rolleyes: I bet you've never even heard the sub.

Just ignore him folks.

P.S. Get over yourself.


I don't know about garbage, but as with any crossover its nice to have drivers with a smooth response to around an octave above crossover. You can't always get it, but for optimal integration that is what is required.

That is why I'm always pushing for higher bandwidth drivers.
I do agree with this, though. Every product has some sort of trade-offs. AE's drivers seem to excel in this department, but the wait time on them is ludicrous.
 
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D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
Sorry DS-21, but I don't take stock in anything you've said about Rythmik.
Fanboys will be fanboys, I suppose.

You bias against them is blinding you,
I would make substantially the same comments about any subwoofer that

(a) had markings that were very poorly calibrated on their crossover control

and/or

(b) offered insufficient bandwidth on top to be useful in smoothing out room modes in the upper bass

and/or

(c) optimized something relatively unimportant (like 2d order distortion) at the expense of something actually useful (bandwidth).

But fanboys will be fanboys, I guess.

Maybe you should listen to Brian Ding more, and experiment with the "sound" of different "interconnects" on his precious boom-boxes. :rolleyes:
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Hey DS-21, I have a question. Lets say for the sake of argument that Rythmik's top end roll off is unsatisfactory for the perfect system. What about all the systems where people just have one sub, and its crossed over at 80 hz in a normal room, you know, less than perfect. Do you think Rythmik would be a poor choice then?
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
Fanboys will be fanboys, I suppose.



I would make substantially the same comments about any subwoofer that

(a) had markings that were very poorly calibrated on their crossover control

and/or

(b) offered insufficient bandwidth on top to be useful in smoothing out room modes in the upper bass

and/or

(c) optimized something relatively unimportant (like 2d order distortion) at the expense of something actually useful (bandwidth).

But fanboys will be fanboys, I guess.

Maybe you should listen to Brian Ding more, and experiment with the "sound" of different "interconnects" on his precious boom-boxes. :rolleyes:
Your narcissism is entertaining but I'm growing bored of it quickly.

Call me what you will, since that's the only leg you have to stand on in this debate, but I'm no fanboy of Rythmik. I own zero Rythmik products (and never have) and I never will. My subs are DIY TC Sounds based sealed units that will eventually be upgraded to LMS5400 Ultras. I've never spoken spoken to Brian either. But his subs offer very good performance for the money if you're in the market for a commercial unit. I do like SVS better, but their price brackets are higher. However, even SVS doesn't cut the mustard for me, but I still recommend them because they too offer very good performance for the money. I don't need to come up with silly reasons why someone shouldn't buy from them simply because I haven't or wouldn't (yes, I'm alluding to you). For $2000 the SVS PB13-Ultra is an excellent choice, and their measurements back that up. For $1300 the Rythmik FV15HP is also an excellent choice, and their measurements back that up. No one cares about your agenda with Rythmik (or rather Brian), and no one cares about your childish" boombox" comments. Your motives are apparent and therefore I urge people to ignore you. You should embarrassed by your outright attack on Brian from Rythmik.
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
Hey DS-21, I have a question. Lets say for the sake of argument that Rythmik's top end roll off is unsatisfactory for the perfect system. What about all the systems where people just have one sub, and its crossed over at 80 hz in a normal room, you know, less than perfect. Do you think Rythmik would be a poor choice then?
He obviously assumes everyone crosses over at 200Hz and that in-room response will look exactly the same as the ground plane/anechoic measurements.:rolleyes:

If the Rythmik rolled off in a typical system as bad as DS-21 claims, there would be dozens of posts and complaints. I've not come across them yet... With that said, I certainly agree that higher bandwidth would be better, but again, it's all about tradeoffs. This subwoofer outperforms the PB13Ultra above 30Hz and stays linear all the way to 125Hz as show in the CEA-2010 max output measurements, so...
 
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timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
"SVS doesnt cut the mustard"?...was that a knock on my sandwich?...How DARE you!!!.....you....you.....FANBOY!!!! :) :) :) hahaha LOL
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
"SVS doesnt cut the mustard"?...was that a knock on my sandwich?...How DARE you!!!.....you....you.....FANBOY!!!! :) :) :) hahaha LOL
LOL - too funny!:D:D

P.S. I like mustard on my.............................................................Jimmy Johns!:)
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
I think mustard is disgusting. It also makes my mouth itch. Yall can keep it :)
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
Hey DS-21, I have a question. Lets say for the sake of argument that Rythmik's top end roll off is unsatisfactory for the perfect system. What about all the systems where people just have one sub, and its crossed over at 80 hz in a normal room, you know, less than perfect. Do you think Rythmik would be a poor choice then?
I would say the person needs to start with a superior system design, rather than just a new part to plug into a fundamentally poor system design. I mentioned above a system design in which the Rythmik could fit.

My subs are DIY TC Sounds based sealed units that will eventually be upgraded to LMS5400 Ultras
Which TC drivers? If the TC3k or one of their predecessor, then a lot of what you post makes more sense...

As for the LMS-Ultra, been there, done that. I sold mine because I couldn't detect any differences between it and the Exodus Maelstrom-X it replaced, and at the time TC was in one of their periodic insolvency spirals so I could make a profit on it. Truth be told, the Aurasound NS18-992-4A isn't any better than the Maelstrom-X in performance, either. But it looks better, and matches my other Aurasound driver subs.

***For $2000 the SVS PB13-Ultra is an excellent choice, and their measurements back that up.
I agree with that. And the measurements back it up: lots of output, reasonable extension, etc.

And one can't help but note that the upper F3 of the PB13-Ultra with a 125 Hz highpass selected is...about 125Hz.



For $1300 the Rythmik FV15HP is also an excellent choice, and their measurements back that up.
A much better prefab option for similar money with a similar low corner (both go dipole at about the same point) is two of SVS's Peerless XXLS12-based sub, PB-12 NSD or something like that. They have textbook excellent performance, with as much output as can be expected for the size and everything else optimized to reference class, as shown by Josh Ricci's measurements:



I'm really, really impressed with that sub, both for the money and on an absolute basis.

Not to mention that with two subs as opposed to one, one can get much smoother in-room response by playing with placement, relative levels, relative phase/delay, and parametric EQ.

Honestly, if I were starting a system build from scratch, I'd likely just buy three PB12s' and one SB12 to put up high rather than building my own subs. Infrasonic content is not important to me, and as long as the form factor of those subs fits into a room, they're cheaper and easier to buy than to build.

You should embarrassed by your outright attack on Brian from Rythmik.
So I take it you endorse his position on sonic differences from subwoofer "interconnects."

If the Rythmik rolled off in a typical system as bad as DS-21 claims, there would be dozens of posts and complaints.
Not necessarily. Lots of crappy products get good reviews, simply because the reviewer is not familiar with better products.

With that said, I certainly agree that higher bandwidth would be better, but again, it's all about tradeoffs.
Do you really believe that degraded performance in the upper bass for lower 2d order distortion down low is a good tradeoff?
 
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N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
Which TC drivers? If the TC3k or one of their predecessor, then a lot of what you post makes more sense...
The 2K's, which follow the (custom modified) octave curve (similar to 12dB Octave) very nicely in my room from 15-120Hz. I didn't have to EQ anything above 40Hz (had to pull down some stuff between 20 and 35, though, but using very shallow filters and only a few dB).



As for the LMS-Ultra, been there, done that. I sold mine because I couldn't detect any differences between it and the Exodus Maelstrom-X it replaced, and at the time TC was in one of their periodic insolvency spirals so I could make a profit on it. Truth be told, the Aurasound NS18-992-4A isn't any better than the Maelstrom-X in performance, either. But it looks better, and matches my other Aurasound driver subs.
I'd still take the 5400U, as they are more bullet proof. A buddy of mine wrecked three 18" Mal-X's.

I agree with that. And the measurements back it up: lots of output, reasonable extension, etc.
The same applies to the FV15HP.

And one can't help but note that the upper F3 of the PB13-Ultra with a 125 Hz highpass selected is...about 125Hz.
Like I said, great product.

A much better prefab option for similar money is two of SVS's Peerless XXLS12-based sub, PB-12 NSD or something like that. They have textbook excellent performance, with as much output as can be expected for the size and everything else optimized to reference class, as shown by Josh Ricci's measurements:
I'm beginning to see where your allegiance lies, which is fine, but still doesn't call for attacking another person.

So I take it you endorse his position on sonic differences from subwoofer "interconnects."
Not at all, but what does that have to do with the FV15HP?

Not necessarily. Lots of crappy products get good reviews, simply because the reviewer is not familiar with better products.
Perhaps. I'm detecting that holier than thou tone from you again...

Do you really believe that degraded performance in the upper bass for lower 2d order distortion down low is a good tradeoff?
Actually no, and I never said I did. Have you looked at the max output charts yet? I really don't think the FV15HP will have any rolloff up to 125Hz in a typical listening envirnonment.

This song and dance is getting stale. Someone who's driven by apparent rage cannot be reasoned with (that would be you in case it wasn't clear). The funny thing is you and I agree for the most part, but not about the FV15HP being rubbish. It could be better in the upper bass, yes, but for $1300 you get a lot of clean output with low distortion, which will appease many. And as I said, I doubt there will be any signs of roll-off below 125Hz in a typical listening environment. And if there is, there's always PEQ.

It's been fun (not really), but this is pointless. Best of luck with your hatred against Rythmik.:rolleyes:
 
R

ratm

Audioholic
I can pee farther than all of you, so there....

Why is it so hard to find any thread where someone (DS21) isnt trying to one-up others (Nuance). I'd kill to have the LMS-5400s for whatever its worth.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I would say the person needs to start with a superior system design, rather than just a new part to plug into a fundamentally poor system design. I mentioned above a system design in which the Rythmik could fit.

Which TC drivers? If the TC3k or one of their predecessor, then a lot of what you post makes more sense...

As for the LMS-Ultra, been there, done that. I sold mine because I couldn't detect any differences between it and the Exodus Maelstrom-X it replaced, and at the time TC was in one of their periodic insolvency spirals so I could make a profit on it. Truth be told, the Aurasound NS18-992-4A isn't any better than the Maelstrom-X in performance, either. But it looks better, and matches my other Aurasound driver subs.
A sub that gets 105+ below 20hz is not a bad sub. TC has had their issues with insolvency, but their drivers are still the best I've seen for high spl.
 
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