To Biamp or not

[EthicalEar]

Well my speakers and equipment weren't cheep but doesn't mean they are good. Good enough for me though. My ears don't always get ethical input but I believe all of you have been very honest in your belief of the information you have shared and that is indeed why I feel I'm back in college. I'm learning and have a lot to look over with the info Mazersteven and Peng have supplied. I also appreciate the acknowledgement my ears are hearing something different. Lots more tests to figure out how to do and what it means and I plan on sharing those results to learn even more. So when People can come over again, they will hear the awesomeness I've been enjoying.
OKAY new test question: Peng, I do want to test the sound with just the Sony amp which I didn't do because I've had the anthem much longer. However, will I hurt anything if I also try to Bi-Amp the Sony to bottom drivers through regular front channel and Anthem to top drivers with Preamp out fronts? I want to try but don't want damage. Thanks!

 

[PENG]

Well my speakers and equipment weren't cheep but doesn't mean they are good. Good enough for me though. My ears don't always get ethical input but I believe all of you have been very honest in your belief of the information you have shared and that is indeed why I feel I'm back in college. I'm learning and have a lot to look over with the info Mazersteven and Peng have supplied. I also appreciate the acknowledgement my ears are hearing something different. Lots more tests to figure out how to do and what it means and I plan on sharing those results to learn even more. So when People can come over again, they will hear the awesomeness I've been enjoying.
OKAY new test question: Peng, I do want to test the sound with just the Sony amp which I didn't do because I've had the anthem much longer. However, will I hurt anything if I also try to Bi-Amp the Sony to bottom drivers through regular front channel and Anthem to top drivers with Preamp out fronts? I want to try but don't want damage. Thanks!

It shouldn't hurt anything if you are careful. You know to make sure the jumpers are disconnected obviously, and it may be better to use the Anthem amp to drive the two woofers and the Sony to drive the remaining 1-1/2 way drivers.

The potential issue with doing it this way is that the gain of the two may not be the same. The Anthem's is 29 dB according to the website. We don't know what it is for the Sony, there is a good chance it will be close to 29 dB too but until you try it, and then find out with a spl meter, or you can take some measurements if you know how, you won't know for sure. Based on specs, the two should be very comparable, but I guess no harm trying.

To me the most important thing to do first is to make absolutely certain that you don't have a high resistance connection point somewhere between the Sony, the Anthem PVA and the speakers. Cables, RCA connectors, binding posts, jumpers, all should be checked carefully. If you have a good multi-meter, you can take some measurements too.

 

[EthicalEar]

It shouldn't hurt anything if you are careful. You know to make sure the jumpers are disconnected obviously, and it may be better to use the Anthem amp to drive the two woofers and the Sony to drive the remaining 1-1/2 way drivers.

The potential issue with doing it this way is that the gain of the two may not be the same. The Anthem's is 29 dB according to the website. We don't know what it is for the Sony, there is a good chance it will be close to 29 dB too but until you try it, and then find out with a spl meter, or you can take some measurements if you know how, you won't know for sure. Based on specs, the two should be very comparable, but I guess no harm trying.

To me the most important thing to do first is to make absolutely certain that you don't have a high resistance connection point somewhere between the Sony, the Anthem PVA and the speakers. Cables, RCA connectors, binding posts, jumpers, all should be checked carefully. If you have a good multi-meter, you can take some measurements too.

Thanks Will do. I was using banana plugs on a few of the speaker wires. I will just use new speaker wire for all the mains. I will make sure the Y's are tested on some easily handled bookshelves before re-using them for bi-amping.

 

[PENG]

Thanks Will do. I was using banana plugs on a few of the speaker wires. I will just use new speaker wire for all the mains. I will make sure the Y's are tested on some easily handled bookshelves before re-using them for bi-amping.

Please report back so we can all learn something from you experiments/experience. Thank you in advance for sharing.

For now, my prediction is that once you get everything sorted, i.e. all jumpers, interconnects, speaker feed wires are good, of large enough size, not too long, equal length for the bi-amp feeds, all banana plugs are tight and have no high resistance connections anywhere etc., the difference between bi-amp or not may be audible to you, but not enough for you to have to increase the volume by so much one way or another. I have read a lot about bi-wire, bi-amps over the years, and I don't remember anyone has ever reported such a big difference in the volume setting required after going from bi-amp back to not bi-amp.

As long as everything get sorted though, since you have the 4-channel amp already, I would just keep on bi-amping regardless. It can't do worse, only better, at least in theory for sure.

 

[killdozzer]

No, my dear Croatian stallion , there are some legitimate things here. It is early and my coffee hasn't kicked in yet. But, i'll try to enlighten you a bit.

It is not all about power power power power power power all day long like our friend Peng's been singing about. There are other variables.

As i said earlier, it can benefit some speakers with certain design deficiencies (generally cheap-ish speakers with low quality drivers/crossovers) or dinky li'l 2 way bookshelves with 1st/2nd order crossovers which can easily get overdriven and produce a lot of distortion. There are many dudes out there who will put small bookshelves in a hometheater as mains (especially if they have subwoofers n all, whoop di doo) and beat the sht out of it.
Poorly designed 1st/2nd order crossovers can easily let distortion through from woofer to tweeter. Woofers themselves generate back EMF, which contain distortion products which have a low frequency component that passes back through the woofer crossover. They can also have a higher frequency component that passes through the tweeter's crossover.

Now, when you biamp, individual amp channels see a higher effective load impedance than (in comparison to one channel driving the entire speaker). This should reduce crossover distortion and overall distortion in such speakers. In other words, it should help a poor speaker or a more or less decent speaker in a low iq application (as i mentioned above).
Lower cooling load for individual amp channels can lead to less temperature variation --> better dynamic bias tracking and lower distortion (especially in receivers with a poor cooling design solution in place). This is a benefit when serious corners have been cut on a receiver, likely with a low end Denon dumdum receiver lol.

Biamping can also reduce the output current requirement, a.k.a reduce distortion for the amp's input stage, etc, etc, etc

Now, can these things be audible? Only your ears can decide. Typically, a dude with a low quality receiver and low quality speaker won't have a system that resolves enough (in general) to hear these things. But, it comes down to the individual choice of components one my have in his setup.

I may be wrong, but you seem to be under the illusion you actually know something about these things?

 

[killdozzer]

if it puts a smile on your face and your toes are a tapin' who gives a crap !

I saw you posting this a couple of times and I gave it a like, but I'm not entirely convinced unless we rule certain scenarios out. If the same smile and the same tappin' toes you can get for less, it means a certain amount was unjustified. I'm really not fond of that. Another thing, what makes you smile for five minutes might burn your system in the 6th.

If we remove these, I'm all in!

 

[pcosmic]

I may be wrong, but you seem to be under the illusion you actually know something about these things?

We only make airplanes/avionics packages/satellite components/weapon systems etc in my line of work. We couldn't possibly understand diddly squat about a couple of drivers and a crossover in a box.

Lift us up from the dark abyss of ignorance and guide us, O all knowing Croatian seer.

 

[Mikado463]

I saw you posting this a couple of times and I gave it a like, but I'm not entirely convinced unless we rule certain scenarios out. If the same smile and the same tappin' toes you can get for less, it means a certain amount was unjustified. I'm really not fond of that. Another thing, what makes you smile for five minutes might burn your system in the 6th.

If we remove these, I'm all in!

LOL, dozer, you're putting way too much thought into this ! one can only hope you do the same with your alcohol selection ! .....

 

[killdozzer]

LOL, dozer, you're putting way too much thought into this ! one can only hope you do the same with your alcohol selection ! .....

You made my evening!

Truth be told, I'm often accused I put way too much thought into alcohol. Wine is my line of business, but I'm the one who spits in tastings and I never drink for volume. It's always occasion, special bottle, romance or lamenting. I'm the number one pro in my company, one of my tasks being constant in-house and for-client education, but I drink the least!!

 

[MR.MAGOO]

Usually "bi-amping" or "bi-wiring" means BUY another amp, BUY more wire! I visited one of those 'high end' stereo stores website, Now I'm reading I need to replace the stock jumper clips with $500 wire jumpers to improve the sonic floor or whatever.

 

[lovinthehd]

We only make airplanes/avionics packages/satellite components/weapon systems etc in my line of work. We couldn't possibly understand diddly squat about a couple of drivers and a crossover in a box.

Lift us up from the dark abyss of ignorance and guide us, O all knowing Croatian seer.

One doesn't prove the other....you do write funny stuff, tho. I know a coupla physicists and their audio knowledge is squat. Yours seems somewhat imaginary.

 

[killdozzer]

Lift us up from the dark abyss of ignorance and guide us, O all knowing Croatian seer.

Naaah... I like you where you are.

One doesn't prove the other....you do write funny stuff, tho. I know a coupla physicists and their audio knowledge is squat. Yours seems somewhat imaginary.

Oh, how can you say that?? Aren't you at all impressed with the sheer precision with which he separates flat-earthers from the rest with this amazing equation which says if anyone thinks there's anything good about a brand he doesn't particularly care for - he's a flat-eartehr?? I know I am impressed.

It is so simple and perfect. It's right there, in front of your eyes and yet no one else saw it. I bet all those avionics profit from such a vast, profound critical mind. I don't eve know what avionics is...

If you allow me to boil down your post, you're basically saying:
underpowered - no good
sufficiantly powered - good

Much the same way we've all been saying from the start. Only you added "trust your ears" even after EthicalEar clearly demonstrated what's lacking in this approach.

 

[pcosmic]

Naaah... I like you where you are.


Oh, how can you say that?? Aren't you at all impressed with the sheer precision with which he separates flat-earthers from the rest with this amazing equation which says if anyone thinks there's anything good about a brand he doesn't particularly care for - he's a flat-eartehr?? I know I am impressed.

It is so simple and perfect. It's right there, in front of your eyes and yet no one else saw it. I bet all those avionics profit from such a vast, profound critical mind. I don't eve know what avionics is...

If you allow me to boil down your post, you're basically saying:
underpowered - no good
sufficiantly powered - good

Much the same way we've all been saying from the start. Only you added "trust your ears" even after EthicalEar clearly demonstrated what's lacking in this approach.

Cro Bro, don't you understand "satire"? Ah yes, English is your 2nd fcking language after all.
I said Denon makes good 2 channel gear. I've owned it before. In fact, i'd buy this in a heartbeat if i had any space left in my house https://www.crutchfield.com/p_033PMAA110/Denon-Anniversary-Edition-PMA-A110.html

I was largely jesting on those threads about Denon flatearthers to lighten up the thread after all you old geezers ganged up on that one "anti-Denon" kid SachB. One can tell by the tone of his posts that he either has a lot to learn in life or something's not exactly wired up right in his head. If it's just 2 guys fighting, that's cool. But, all you geezers were fightin him collectively like a buncha immature lil sorority sisters. Cheer up a bit in life Cro Bro.

 

[pcosmic]

One doesn't prove the other....you do write funny stuff, tho. I know a coupla physicists and their audio knowledge is squat. Yours seems somewhat imaginary.

Four physicists went to work at Harman and started experimentation on a tree frog.
- With all his legs intact, frog jumped eight feet.
- They chopped off one leg and said "Jump". Frog jumped 5 ft
- They chopped off another leg and said "Jump". Frog jumped 1 ft
- They chopped off the third leg and said "Jump". Frog tried something and fell over 2 inches away
- They chopped off his last leg and said "Jump". Poor Froggie didn't move.
The four Harman physicists concluded that if you chopped off all 4 legs on that tree frog, he can't fcking hear ya (he goes deaf).

 

[killdozzer]

Cro Bro, don't you understand "satire"? Ah yes, English is your 2nd fcking language after all.
I said Denon makes good 2 channel gear. I've owned it before. In fact, i'd buy this in a heartbeat if i had any space left in my house https://www.crutchfield.com/p_033PMAA110/Denon-Anniversary-Edition-PMA-A110.html

I was largely jesting on those threads about Denon flatearthers to lighten up the thread after all you old geezers ganged up on that one "anti-Denon" kid SachB. One can tell by the tone of his posts that he either has a lot to learn in life or something's not exactly wired up right in his head. If it's just 2 guys fighting, that's cool. But, all you geezers were fightin him collectively like a buncha immature lil sorority sisters. Cheer up a bit in life Cro Bro.

View attachment 43247

I was kidding. I think you're great.

I will admit I saw no satire. You would have to point that out. It totally flew over my head.

For some reason you're over-stressing the fact that I'm from Croatia. I don't see it all that interesting.

So, how good are you at your 2nd f*king language? Me being a Morloc from Croatia will gladly adapt to your Eloi superior and refined culture and switch to French or Italian if it'll make it easier for you. Or you can switch to Croatian.

 

[pcosmic]

I was kidding. I think you're great.

I will admit I saw no satire. You would have to point that out. It totally flew over my head.

For some reason you're over-stressing the fact that I'm from Croatia. I don't see it all that interesting.

So, how good are you at your 2nd f*king language? Me being a Morloc from Croatia will gladly adapt to your Eloi superior and refined culture and switch to French or Italian if it'll make it easier for you. Or you can switch to Croatian.

Well, my old man was a immigrant from Germany and i can speak German. I can also speak Spanish (about 70%). So, i suppose that makes me cultured by your standards.

Speaking of culture, get off your high horse bro. The US is just a bunch of immigrant folk from all parts of the world, Their cultures are watered down to an extent, of course. But, in many places you can find pockets of authenticity (it's a large country). Generally, it is way more chaotic in a good way and entertaining here (for me at least). Europe may work out for you you since you were born/raised there. But, it definitely isn't my cup of tea. Starting with the food in many parts of Europe which i find extremely crappy/overpriced, i find life in general to be just plain fcking boring over there. I would rather hit my head on a brick wall than live in Switzerland, Belgium, Netherlands, Scandinavia, etc (Ugh).

If i want some cultural immersion, good food and other thrills in life, i'll get on a plane to Mexico, Morocco, Brazil, China or India and live there for a few years.