mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
Also you are saying what I did doesn't count as bi-amping? I believe theoretically there is no difference. What I did is actually a better way. Again it's not the end of the argument but I can hear quite clearly that it makes a big difference. The difference is in the variables. Speaker type. Watts to each driver set. Quality of components and what volume you want to hear all the details for. All I hear is bi-amping is useless. That is not true. I am not saying your advice to RP1 is wrong, it may be best for his set up. But until one works through each variable there is a chance it could be helpful. As in my case when perhaps the 125 watts alone was not enough power, my solution worked.
When running 125 watts to 1 speaker (4 drivers) I had to turn the volume way up to get the same effect I had when running 125 watts to 2 of the drivers and another 125 watts to the other 2 drivers of the speaker. So, instead of using my Sony ZA5000ES which is 130 watts in combination with the Anthem, I chose to use the Anthem's 4 channels to send equal power to both. Thus no concerns on matching watts from amps that don't provide an accurate rating. Regardless if a completely separate amp or a 4 channel amp, the result was significant. 125x2 was better, cleaner sound at a low to normal volume than 125x1. Sure when you make it loud it doesn't make as much difference but I believe I did hear more treble distortion with 125 watts loud. But at low levels, more power to the drivers made the speakers shine. I realize perhaps 125 may not be enough to drive the P95Fs sufficiently at low volumes. A more powerful amp isn't possible for me at this time so, someday down the road an Anthem MCA 325 may do the job. Lastly, I didn't say my speakers were highly efficient. Klipsch requires very little power to drive them, I have them and replaced them with the dimes. The dimes do require more power to sound good.
I'm still trying to understand the audible performance differences that you stated you heard? What did you hear quite clearly that made the big difference
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
When running 125 watts to 1 speaker (4 drivers) I had to turn the volume way up to get the same effect I had when running 125 watts to 2 of the drivers and another 125 watts to the other 2 drivers of the speaker.
This, combined with what you said in your earlier post " I had to turn the volume up to 52 (0-99) and then the vocals normalized and the drums became sharp again. ", and the fact that your P95's sensitivity is reasonably high, at 91 dB/2.83 V anechoic, and not too difficult impedance, being nominal 8 ohms, It tells me two things:

1) Power requirement is not the issue. Actually, Stereophile's JA seemed to agree because in the review he said "This is a speaker that plays loudly with very few watts. "
Paradigm Prestige 95F loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

2) You are hearing the difference probably because there is something about you system's settings/configuration. I don't know that for sure, but just can't help wondering what's causing it.

Would you mind telling us how you connect the Sony to the Anthem amps, like using a RCA Y-connector, and making sure the two amp channels for each of the front left and right speakers are getting the same signal? Are the size and length of both cables for the bass and mid/tweeter are the same?

125x2 was better, cleaner sound at a low to normal volume than 125x1.
Again, this seems inexplicable because based on your volume setting of only 52 out of 99, it would seem almost impossible for 125 W and 125 W bi-amp to make such obvious difference. The fact is, if you speakers only need say 50 W for your listening habits/environment, at the maximum/peak spl you listened to, then 125 W or 250 W would just be there standing by, and would make no difference until and unless the speakers actually demand the extra "juice".

But at low levels, more power to the drivers made the speakers shine.
"low level"..", "more power",... that seems so contradictory!!

The fact that you said by turning up the volume when not biamping, you can get the "same effect...".. you had when bi-amping, further support my point that it isn't a power related issue because using two channels of the same amp, single, bi-amp, or tri-amp should not affect the volume setting. You can substitute the Sony's internal amp with a 1000 W amp, if the gain of the 1000 W amp and the Sony's internal amp are the same, at the same volume position, it should sound equally "loud" as long as the internal amp's output limit is not exceeded.

To double, quadruple checked that power is not the issue, please use the linked calculator to find out your actual power need, or give me your seating distance and the maximum/loudest spl you listen to, and I'll do it myself. Reference level is 85 dB, with 105 dB peak and would be about as loud as what you may hear in a good movie cinema.

Peak SPL Calculator (homestead.com)

There are no doubt theoretical benefits of bi-amping, even just passive bi-amping like what you are doing, but such theoretical benefits generally don't result in audible differences. There are people (like you) who claimed they could clearly hear a difference, but I suspect there may be something else at play. So I am not even trying to suggest you did not hear the difference you claimed, just trying to make sense out of it.[/QUOTE]
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
I’m looking for an education.
As far as knowledge goes, it's endless. Vertical and horizontal haven't even been touched so far.

Although, some people will go into the crosstalk and separation and stretch the stories that borrow heavily from the idea of mono-binaural, but most modern amps if designed properly should separate channels good enough.

So it all boils down to having underpowered speakers (not your case) and if you have few weaker amps, you might set them up to power a part of the speaker and that way deal with power demands.

Also, let's be fair almost all active speakers are bi- or three-amped. But that's another story.

If you don't have your speakers underpowered with few extra amps lying around, you don't need to worry yourself.

Furthermore, extra clean, reliable and high power will become very cheap, very soon with the dawn of new and improved Class-D. You can have 400wpch these days that fit your pocket, run cool, cost reasonably and perform as clean as a whistle.
 
EthicalEar

EthicalEar

Junior Audioholic
Hi Peng,
Thank you for your time, questions and suggestions. I would very much like to understand this as well.

In response to 1) Yes it does play Loudly with few watts. But it does not play at low to normal volume very well. So to me perhaps JA did not speak to quality of the low volume sound: see #3 I may just not understand all he did say. o_O


2) Settings and configuration I believe are correct.
I did use a Y connector from Sony Front speaker Pre-outs in order to utilize the 4 channels of the Anthem.

3) I reviewed the link with JA's measurements and respectfully cannot really understand it well enough to determine it that measurements change from low to high volume. Also with all do respect having been in an orchestra a jazz band and rock band, I have faith in listening with my ears regardless of what a measurement may tell me to hear. I won't doubt the measurement but I know when something is missing or amiss.

SACD of Rush Counterparts 1st song Animate. Low level drums were almost hidden, Geddy's voice a bit muffled not clear or bright. Once volume was increased to minimum of 52, drums did begin sound clear and normal and so did Geddy but tweeters did seem to have some distortion and were not perfectly clear as when bi-amped. So, Could it be a bad speaker wire? Why would it be corrected and back to normal.
I will try it again and make sure the wires and jumpers are on there correctly.
It was rather late last night. Fresh ears would also help. I will also switch to DB volume instead of 0-99.

I had believed that a Powerful amp at low volume could easily drive speakers clearer at a low volume than a lower powered amp and I had thought this experiment meant that this was likely what was happening.

I did buy an SPL meter but haven't used it or learned enough as to what it meant yet.o_O I saved the link to the calculator and will get those when I get a chance. I may have to work this weekend so it will take a little while. Will work on that and let you know Thanks again Peng.
Your questions and suggestions are greatly appreciated.
 
R

RP1

Enthusiast
As far as knowledge goes, it's endless. Vertical and horizontal haven't even been touched so far.

Although, some people will go into the crosstalk and separation and stretch the stories that borrow heavily from the idea of mono-binaural, but most modern amps if designed properly should separate channels good enough.

So it all boils down to having underpowered speakers (not your case) and if you have few weaker amps, you might set them up to power a part of the speaker and that way deal with power demands.

Also, let's be fair almost all active speakers are bi- or three-amped. But that's another story.

If you don't have your speakers underpowered with few extra amps lying around, you don't need to worry yourself.

Furthermore, extra clean, reliable and high power will become very cheap, very soon with the dawn of new and improved Class-D. You can have 400wpch these days that fit your pocket, run cool, cost reasonably and perform as clean as a whistle.
Thats great info and I really appreciate you taking the time to help me more clearly understand all this.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
In response to 1) Yes it does play Loudly with few watts. But it does not play at low to normal volume very well. So to me perhaps JA did not speak to quality of the low volume sound: see #3 I may just not understand all he did say. o_O
He is a very knowledgeable person for sure, so he must know full well that power not used has no effect. If the speaker plays very loud with a few watts, the untapped power reserve will just be there on reserve, and will have no effects whatsoever until it gets tapped, i.e. used. Let's say you only need 10 W to get you 105 dB (ref level) peak at you mlp, 105 dB peak is so loud that you will not likely tolerate when listening to orchestral classical or jazz music. Then a 125 W amp will be operating well below its limit most class AB amps tend to have low distortions from about 2 to 5 W and up, and started to increase gradually from about 50 to 70% of its rated output.

Your Sony's measurements are not available online but take a look of the 5400ES's:

Sony STR-DA5400ES A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures | Sound & Vision (soundandvision.com)

You can see that this Sony actually has a very flat curve, THD increased very gently, to about 0.007% when it started to "clip", at about 125 W.

It is very possible that in terms of accuracy/transparency, the internal amps of the higher end Sony ES amp would perform better than you Anthem entry level power amp. That does not mean it would sound audibly different in a blind tests. THD+N is just one criteria albeit an important one, and low THD typically is a good indicator that IMD would be low too. Also, the distortions at low output level seems excellent, so I doubt you have to worry about the highly audible crossover distortions either.

1609277699069.png


2) Settings and configuration I believe are correct.
I did use a Y connector from Sony Front speaker Pre-outs in order to utilize the 4 channels of the Anthem.
Since you have to turn the volume up when not bi-amping, I would suggest perhaps one set of the connections and/or cables may be bad in some way. If you are using RCA connectors, you really should inspect each and everyone carefully. There is good reason to have to turn volume up simply going from single amp to biamp, unless you forget to put the jumper back but that would be so obvious, that you would have notice right away.:D

3) I reviewed the link with JA's measurements and respectfully cannot really understand it well enough to determine it that measurements change from low to high volume. Also with all do respect having been in an orchestra a jazz band and rock band, I have faith in listening with my ears regardless of what a measurement may tell me to hear. I won't doubt the measurement but I know when something is missing or amiss.
Which part of his measurements are you referring to?
Regardless, as I mentioned before, you probably, say even likely heard what you heard, but I highly doubt the difference was from passive bi-amping. So to me, this not about debating whether biamp vs not is worth it, but more about troubleshooting, there is something not right, I am 100% sure of that, but obviously I can't prove it, just wish I was there to find the real issue/culprit.

SACD of Rush Counterparts 1st song Animate. Low level drums were almost hidden, Geddy's voice a bit muffled not clear or bright. Once volume was increased to minimum of 52, drums did begin sound clear and normal and so did Geddy but tweeters did seem to have some distortion and were not perfectly clear as when bi-amped. So, Could it be a bad speaker wire? Why would it be corrected and back to normal.
I will try it again and make sure the wires and jumpers are on there correctly.
It was rather late last night. Fresh ears would also help. I will also switch to DB volume instead of 0-99.
Yes it could be bad wires, and/or bad connections, it might have been partially "corrected" at higher volume if the "bad" isn't really very "bad", but bad enough to increase the overall resistance between the power amp binding post to the speaker terminals to the point damping factor becomes so low that you are able to hear the results. That's just one scenario and there are likely other unknowns. At higher volume, whatever the issues are, would still be there but the adverse effects might have become less obvious with the higher output voltage.
I mention damping factor as an example of what could have been affected, the real cause(s) could be more complicated.

Damping Factor: Effects On System Response | Audioholics

I had believed that a Powerful amp at low volume could easily drive speakers clearer at a low volume than a lower powered amp and I had thought this experiment meant that this was likely what was happening.
That is absolutely one of those many forum myths. Such claims are just claims, that cannot be back up with scientific facts. Ask @VMPS-TIII about his 60 W Hegel amp lol!1 And I am talking about SS amps, let alone many nice sounding tube amps rated <100 WPC. Yes a 300 W amp vs a 150 W amp will make a difference of 3 dB, but if the need is only 50 W under worst case condition, then either amp can drive the load easily and effectively. If your need is 150 W, then okay the 300 W would likely be able to do a better job, all else being equal, because its output would remain "cleaner" during the peak demand moments.

I did buy an SPL meter but haven't used it or learned enough as to what it meant yet.o_O I saved the link to the calculator and will get those when I get a chance. I may have to work this weekend so it will take a little while. Will work on that and let you know Thanks again Peng.
Your questions and suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Of course, take your time, its just a hobby, work has to take priority for sure. As I said, this, to me is more about troubleshooting. If you do happen to have some bad connections and/or cables then once that's fixed, you may be in for another treat of improved sound quality whether you bi-amp or not.;)
 
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R

RP1

Enthusiast
Yeah no doubt, all I can say is don’t question anything he says, plus he hits you with facts. I know in this day And age facts are optional to some. I one that has always counted on facts. He’s the man..
 
R

RP1

Enthusiast
You certainly did, and for the record you sold me well before you called in the big guns.
 
pcosmic

pcosmic

Senior Audioholic
Try biamping and let your ears decide if it doesn't cost you too much... Some cheap (ish) speakers with certain design deficiencies in them can benefit from it to some degree.
 
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killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
Try biamping and let your ears decide if it doesn't cost you too much... Some cheap (ish) speakers with certain design deficiencies in them can benefit from it to some degree.
After all the good advice, all the time members invested in explaining and providing facts, you've decided to go with "trust you ears"?? Wouldn't you say after all the the data showing how ears can easily be fooled taht this is a step back advice?
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
Try biamping and let your ears decide if it doesn't cost you too much... Some cheap (ish) speakers with certain design deficiencies in them can benefit from it to some degree.
My first thoughts. Cheap(ish) speakers and invest in multiple amps $. Plus the receiver w/ pre/outs to connect those amps $.
Or are you suggesting using a Cheap(ish) receiver and putting a strain on that.

And your words of "benefit from it to Some degree"

In other words is it even worth it

tenor-3.gif
 
pcosmic

pcosmic

Senior Audioholic
After all the good advice, all the time members invested in explaining and providing facts, you've decided to go with "trust you ears"?? Wouldn't you say after all the the data showing how ears can easily be fooled taht this is a step back advice?
No, my dear Croatian stallion :D , there are some legitimate things here. It is early and my coffee hasn't kicked in yet. But, i'll try to enlighten you a bit.

It is not all about power power power power power power all day long like our friend Peng's been singing about. There are other variables.

As i said earlier, it can benefit some speakers with certain design deficiencies (generally cheap-ish speakers with low quality drivers/crossovers) or dinky li'l 2 way bookshelves with 1st/2nd order crossovers which can easily get overdriven and produce a lot of distortion. There are many dudes out there who will put small bookshelves in a hometheater as mains (especially if they have subwoofers n all, whoop di doo) and beat the sht out of it.
Poorly designed 1st/2nd order crossovers can easily let distortion through from woofer to tweeter. Woofers themselves generate back EMF, which contain distortion products which have a low frequency component that passes back through the woofer crossover. They can also have a higher frequency component that passes through the tweeter's crossover.

Now, when you biamp, individual amp channels see a higher effective load impedance than (in comparison to one channel driving the entire speaker). This should reduce crossover distortion and overall distortion in such speakers. In other words, it should help a poor speaker or a more or less decent speaker in a low iq application (as i mentioned above).
Lower cooling load for individual amp channels can lead to less temperature variation --> better dynamic bias tracking and lower distortion (especially in receivers with a poor cooling design solution in place). This is a benefit when serious corners have been cut on a receiver, likely with a low end Denon dumdum receiver lol.

Biamping can also reduce the output current requirement, a.k.a reduce distortion for the amp's input stage, etc, etc, etc

Now, can these things be audible? Only your ears can decide. Typically, a dude with a low quality receiver and low quality speaker won't have a system that resolves enough (in general) to hear these things. But, it comes down to the individual choice of components one my have in his setup.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
if it puts a smile on your face and your toes are a tapin' who gives a crap !
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
It is not all about power power power power power power all day long like our friend Peng's been singing about. There are other variables.
If you read my posts (e.g. #48) you will see that you may be singing what I have been singing (to some extent at least..), that it is not about power. That's exactly the point I tried to make to Mr. EthicalEar. Again, I said repeatedly in my response posts to him that based on the information provided, that the difference he heard between bi-amp and not bi-amp was NOT related to power, but to something else that is still unknown. I also said it is not about debating the benefits of biamp at this point, but more about troubleshooting, to find out what's happening.

People who have read my posts about biamp will know that I am actually among the very few that have never discounted the theoretical benefits of passive bi-amping. Since there are theoretical benefits, it is possible the effects may be audible, depending..
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Even with running 5 channels?
What most people don’t realize is that all channels driven (ACD) is for testing amps in the lab, not for real life situations.

In real life, you will not see all 5Ch, 7Ch, 9Ch, 11Ch driven to full power.

That is why some people who want extra power will just add a 2Ch amp. The other CH don’t need much power.

So what people need to look at is the 2CH Power Output, not 5CH, 7CH, 9CH.

The RX-A2080 can output 260 Watts x 2Ch into 4 ohms.

And actually most people don’t even need THAT much power for 2Ch.
 

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