THX receivers

[Buckeyefan 1]

takeereasy. thanks, but can you elaborate on how the HK is better? (like "this is better because this gives more clean watts" ; "more power")
and can you help explain why a lot of people are saying the HK has more power when the specs say otherwise?

brian, ive demo-ed the 2 units but only like this ... yam amp with yam speakers ; HK amp with infinity speakers (different store, you see)

Mike,
Although unscientific, always check the weight of the receiver. A good starting point IMO is around 33lbs. I've yet to read a negative review on any receiver weighing 33lbs or more. You can no longer go by power ratings, as manufacturers have figured out how to pull the wool over consumers eyes when it comes to wattage.

 

[droeses58]

Mike, for what it's worth my brother in-law has a yamy and though it does have a lot of add-ons [features] you have to ask yourself if your really going to use them. To me most of those features are useless except for the dolby's and neo. I for one just don't like the sound of yamaha [brother in-laws the only one I heard] his is rated 100wpc and IMO I think my 635 goes just as loud or louder and sounds IMO much better.

Brian / Buckeyfan, maybe it's all the features that make the yamy a little heavier, not the quallity?.....but then again the 635 weighs 41 pounds. jk

 

[krzywica]

I've got a yammy and I love it! The power ratings are a little generous but you cant beat their DSP's and the million surround modes it has. It's not just the ammount of surround modes but I think Yamaha has the best sounding ones as well. My reciever is rated at 105wpc and I have had my system well over 120db with no clipping or distortion so I would'nt think loudness would be a factor between the 2.

 

[Privateer]

I have had my system well over 120db with no clipping or distortion

And I can bench press 500 pounds!

 

[anamorphic96]

Mike,
Although unscientific, always check the weight of the receiver. A good starting point IMO is around 33lbs. I've yet to read a negative review on any receiver weighing 33lbs or more. You can no longer go by power ratings, as manufacturers have figured out how to pull the wool over consumers eyes when it comes to wattage.

Im a little curious as to why you have chosen 33 lbs. Why not 30 or 35. Just a little interesting is all.

 

[Privateer]

krzywica were you kidding or do you think that your Athena speakers were running 120 db+ off of 105 watts?

 

[hopjohn]

Please feel free to correct any of the following as I do not claim to be an expert on the history of THX or all of its developments and implementations:

My understanding is that THX was introduced in large movie theaters where it was necessary to provide a good surround experience for each ticket buyer. I believe I'm correct when I say that the design itself compromises the ultimate experience for some of the prime seating positions in order to serve the greater good for more people, thus the "Every seat a good seat" approach. In a typical HT environment these same core principles don't really apply in my opinion, where you most frequently have a prime listening area. I don't like that THX essentially requires that you reflect the sound off the rear wall of the room intentionally with dipoles to create the "proper" environment.

I also think its bogus to say THX is "as the director intended". While the director certainly has input on what they would like, the sound engineer isn't nearly as likely to fall under the same directoral scrutiny as the editor of a film is. So it would be more apt to say "as the director might have been willing to accept due to budget concerns and an angry exec producer". There are exceptions to this of course where directors have carte blanche, but that is the exception not the rule.

Anyway... THX is probably great for large exotic HT's where you have rows of stadium seating. Though, having a THX setup in a typical one couch, one love seat, living room, type HT is silly in my opinion, and likely sounds worse than it would otherwise with a direct radiating speaker setup.

 

[mike c]

the AVR235 is heavier than the AVR335 based on the website specs

235 specs

 

[krzywica]

No I was kidding but I have had them up to 110.

 

[Takeereasy]

mike c, I just think that the odds are you'll get more enjoyability from the HK if you are looking for an easier to use, yet still powerful receiver. That Yammie is sweet, but it comes with so many features that I know I'd never use. I don't want to pay for 40 or 50 surround modes, THX certification, YPAO, etc. If they are all free I'll take them, but they would receive between little and no usage.

That HK is a solid performer. I like the headroom it gives and I'm pretty sure the HK would be more stable driveing a lower impedence load. Harman makes a great receiver (so does Yamaha) that will gives tons of dynamics and slam for both R & B and movies. The HK is simpler to use and better looking as well IMO.

Edit: disregard what you read about the 235, that topic has been brought up elsewhere, the 335 is the heavier of the two.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Nothing scientific here

Im a little curious as to why you have chosen 33 lbs. Why not 30 or 35. Just a little interesting is all.

It's taken me years of research to come up with that number.
Honestly, when you look at the Japanese, UK, and US units, you'll find the best of the entry level, or entry level of the flagships start around 33lbs.

Take Pioneer, for instance. The 1015TX just makes that weight, along with the Elite 52TX (both THX certified). Yamaha's 5860 doesn't cut it, but the 5890 and 1500 do (both THX). Onkyo's 702 (THX) makes the cut, but the 602 does not. The Marantz 7500 (rounded up at 32.6lbs and THX) makes it, the 5500 doesn't.

The reason I chose 33lbs over THX certification is because of the likes of Denon (3805), HK (235 and up, *I'm guessing that's a typo on the 335 at 31lbs. I'll make an exception if it's not ), and a few others that didn't feel the need to obtain certification to offer units with above average, beefy power supplies and large heat sinks. These receivers IMO have the ability to drive a wider range of speakers with most types of resistance.

If one already owns higher spl speakers, or has a separate power amp, shopping for a receiver at my 33lb suggestion may not hold as much water. But I think enough guys here would agree with me that if you are looking at Yamaha for their great pre-out sound (if using a separate amp), the 1500 is probably the model to start with (which weighs 34.2lbs). I like this model over Denon's 2805 (which weighs 29lbs and some change) because of the increased power, even though both are in the same price bracket. It's my opinion that extra 5lbs helps the Yamaha obtain those extra few watts to run longer, and cooler with less distortion assuming large heat sinks and a slightly larger transformer.

 

[anamorphic96]

Thanks a bunch. I do agree with you on weight. It's a good sign as to the quality of the amp section. I do feel there can be exceptions on occasion though.

I just thought 33 was kinda interesting. But makes better sense now that you mention all those models and their weights.

 

[mike c]

i asked the HK guy to tell me WHY his 55w AVR335 can trump a 120w yam 1500
he said two words ... high current

so i promptly asked the yam guy, he said, yams are ALSO high current

SO, lets break down the choice to this question ... which has MORE power? (which will give me so loud that my head will explode ... but w/o clipping and still with clarity ... you know) [i suppose both can do the same job of creating 7.1 surround, i might forget and miss the point of mostly HT use]

the 335 costs php 37000 and the 1500 php 34000 (divide by 56 to get USD)

53USD price diff.

 

[droeses58]

The RX-V1500 is a high performance, high-value receiver featuring Yamaha's unique CINEMA DSP and YPAO Acoustic Room Optimization and much more. Featuring 7-channel discrete amplification (120W x 7), Yamaha’s Digital ToP-ART design concept, YPAO (Yamaha Parametric Room Acoustic Optimizer), Quad-Field CINEMA DSP, 16 surround programs, full movie sound format compatibility as well as THX Select processing, SILENT CINEMA, Night Listening Mode, 9 channel speaker outputs with Zone2 out, and component video up conversion for optimum video quality. Features for convenient operation include extensive menus, front panel video Aux optical input terminal and a direct access remote control. This high-performance receiver also provides a variety of features for setting up a multi-room custom installation. 1 year warranty

Description
The soul of every Harman Kardon Receiver is a high-current, ultrawide-bandwidth (10Hz-130kHz) amplifier for unwavering, distortion-free power. The AVR-335 contains this power just under its handsome black hood, effortlessly powering the most dynamic Digital sources with 70W x 2 or 55W x 7 into 8 Ohms, 20Hz - 20kHz at <0.07% THD. Stereo and Home-theater never had it so good! 2 year warranty!

Mike, to me the choice is easy 2yr warranty with the hk, 1yr with the yammy. Also note the 70wpc in stereo

The yammys got lots of features but I really dought that you would ever use them.
I don't see any mention of high current in the yammy description

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

(which will give me so loud that my head will explode ... but w/o clipping and still with clarity ... you know)

Why do you want your head to explode? Clean power should mean punchy bass, clean cut highs, and a low noise floor. When I play music "loud," it doesn't seem "loud," until you try to carry on a conversation.

IMHO, HK and Yamaha have two different, unique sounds (even with the tone controls set flat). Especially going with Infinity speakers. I'd highly recommend you get both units in your house, and try them side by side. There will be one clear cut winner - you'll know immediately. It has nothing to do with watts, current, or volume. You'll just know. Be up front and honest with your sales reps and they'll understand.

 

[krzywica]

Yea I agree with Buckeye on this one. They do have 2 different sounds and you won't really know till you hear it for yourself in your own home. I had and onkyo before my yammy, and I tried my friends pioneer elite after getting my yammy. They all sounded different even with the same speakers and same room.

 

[mike c]

ok, i got a yammy 640 ... im gonna buy the speakers install that and hear it out ...
ill take it from there ... (honestly, i doubt id here a difference, im not that good of an audiophile)

i just dont want to buy something and say ... "i wish i bought the other one ..."

 

[nibhaz]

Why do you want your head to explode? Clean power should mean punchy bass, clean cut highs, and a low noise floor. When I play music "loud," it doesn't seem "loud," until you try to carry on a conversation.

It's so true! 0dB on the volume display doesn't sound loud... it sounds like ecstasy! Unfortunately, I rent, so I can’t visit that realm very often

 

[PENG]

i asked the HK guy to tell me WHY his 55w AVR335 can trump a 120w yam 1500
he said two words ... high current

so i promptly asked the yam guy, he said, yams are ALSO high current

SO, lets break down the choice to this question ... which has MORE power? (which will give me so loud that my head will explode ... but w/o clipping and still with clarity ... you know) [i suppose both can do the same job of creating 7.1 surround, i might forget and miss the point of mostly HT use]

the 335 costs php 37000 and the 1500 php 34000 (divide by 56 to get USD)

53USD price diff.

I almost bought a HKAVR7200 myself and I really like their receivers, but this high current thing is blown way out of proportion. How high the current goes depends on how loud you play your music and how low the impedance of the speakers dip down to. I have read something like, "its current that gets you real power" or something like that, simply not true! Sure, the power supply must have the current capacity, but the currents don't just flow out high regardless of the load impedance and the input signal. Most mid price receivers have power supply that can deliver reasonably high current when call upon, for a short duration.

The fact is Power=VoltageXCurrentXPower Factor (phase angle between the voltage and current), or =VoltageXVoltage/Resistance (the real term of the complex impedance), or =CurrentXCurrentXRsistance. All these are variations of the same power formula. Search the web, or refer to any basic electricity text books you will find out how these formula are derived.

Again, I like HK receivers a lot, but whether the 335 has more power than the RX-V1500, it really depends. The 335 may have a larger power supply and more all channel driven power, but I would bet the 1500 has more powerful amps so it may have more power (and yes, likely higher current) for 2 channel material. Try search for lab test reports on the web, you may get lucky and find some.

Following are quotes from Nov 2004 What Hi*Fi Sound and Vision magazine, here's a little bit of what they said in their reviews of the HKAVR630 and Yamaha RX-V1500.

HKAVR630 (overall rating: 4 stars) ........."the AVR630 lacks the muscle to elevate special-effects laden scenes-after only the first few explosions in Saving Private Ryan, the receiver loses its poise. The midrange is equally subdued an inexpressive. Musically it offers rhythmic timing and reasonable detail, but once again it struggles at high volumes. At lower levels it sounds good, with the Logic 7 processing mode being one of the most effective surround-creation systems."

RX-V1500 (overall rating: 5 stars).. ...."It packs a powerful punch, with plenty of solid weight adding emphasis to explosive film sounds. Scenes from Behind Enemy Lines had our review room literally shaking. While some receivers fluster in the face of high-powered special effects, the Yamaha keeps a firm grip of low-frequencies and maintains its composure throughout..............Music, especially multi-channel tracks, are evenly balanced and rhythmically timed, though a slice of brightness is served up at the high end. Using Pure Direct mode for stereo playback produces a detailed and dynamic presentation that competes with any receiver in this class"............

 

[brian32672]

Good post PENG, 1 chicklet for you..