This is why I very much dislike "audiophiles"..

Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Adam, its easy to make it a joke, there are tons of them....
It wasn't a challenge. :D

...just maybe next time you get offended send a pm...
Types the man on an open post. :p

Dude, I've said it once on here (that I know of - and I searched). Once. Ever. Over 24000 posts. And that was to you because you posted stuff that I really didn't like in a thread that, yeah, I feel some ownership of (I know that we don't own any of this). And, I said soon afterwards that you didn't actually "offend" me. I just didn't like the stuff. I never said that the photo offended me. I said that I thought it was uncool. That's all. I have no problem saying that here, and I still don't.

To make this clear - you didn't just offend me. :D Merry Christmas to you, too, man. I hope that you and yours have a great one.
 
monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
showing a picture of him slapping the sh1t out of his wife holding a budweiser than I would agree with you, but it was harmless...
If you replace slamming with slapping, does the point still apply? XD
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
It wasn't a challenge. :D
lol, sorry...

Types the man on an open post. :p

Oh I got that, lol...

Dude, I've said it once on here (that I know of - and I searched). Once. Ever. Over 24000 posts. And that was to you because you posted stuff that I really didn't like in a thread that, yeah, I feel some ownership of (I know that we don't own any of this). And, I said soon afterwards that you didn't actually "offend" me. I just didn't like the stuff. I never said that the photo offended me. I said that I thought it was uncool. That's all. I have no problem saying that here, and I still don't.

C'mon, I cant bust your blls about saying that, you have to admit you came off "dilly" {I just made that up}, If one of my friends said I offended them in person, it would take a while before I stopped teasing them about it... {Oh and Im going to be commenting about the ownership statement above, count on it, lol

To make this clear - you didn't just offend me. :D Merry Christmas to you, too, man. I hope that you and yours have a great one.

I would hope we are past the point where I could offend you, I think you can see my personality and sense of humor by now, all in good fun.... we are on a home audio forum, not a down syndrome family support board...
Enjoy your holiday bud...
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Multiple quotes...so tiring...I think that I'll just remove all of those pesky HTML tags. :D

...you have to admit you came off "dilly"...
I'll admit it when I think so, but I don't this time. The photo joke translated to me as, "Hey, when I'm drunk, I use that as an excuse to abuse a person that can't defend herself and that I made a commitment to love and protect." Nope, still not funny to me. I commented in part because I thought that might seriously offend other readers here (some of which are women, but I can't say if they'd mind that photo) and it was posted by somebody who I think is a good guy and who wouldn't want to do that. Yeah, a PM would have been better in retrospect, but I was like four drinks down and a little slow on the social interaction scale. :eek:
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
FWIW, I appreciated that Adam spoke up and Monkish had the post removed.
I know too many women who have been abused (and alcohol is often involved), and the joke is a bit close to home that way.

Most of us have very strong core values, but for others a post like that (and especially were it showered with thanks) would be an indication of acceptable or even cool/desirable behavior.

It was by no means horrid, but it did not have the good vibes that are nice to encounter (and common to this site).

I don't think less of Monkish for posting it, we all occasionally go too far/extreme.
 
A

avengineer

Banned
responding to what avengineer said:

It seems harmless when you put it that way, but I would say the enterprise of pseudoscience on the whole is harmful and should be discouraged. While I don't care enough to make a personal crusade against this sort of BS, I do think one ought to call it out when they see it, whether it is magic cables or vaccines that induce autism.
I used to do that all the time. I just couldn't keep silent when some guy was extolling the virtues of his exotic cables. But then one time I met a very passionate older gentleman who spent thousands on exotics got into "the discussion" with me. With considerable effort I popped his bubble, then immediately wished I hadn't. It was like I sucked the life out of the guy. The expression on his face was so hurt, so sad. I never want to do that to any human again.

The one thing about conveying "truth" in all matters is, the recipient has to desire it and be willing to pay the price of the truth. If he desires truth, but is not willing to come to grips with the fact that he's been duped for years, then he really doesn't want the truth. If, on the other hand, an audiophile comes to me as an engineer and asks me to explain electrical theory of cables and audio, that's different. I don't force my beliefs on people, I just open the opportunity. If they want it, they've got it, otherwise I'd rather they continue happy in their beliefs.

The above holds true for many subjects, but I make one exception: if their belief is life-threatening. Then I'll try much harder!

You can't stop the snake-oil venders. There's too much profit in snake-oil. They've existed for centuries, and there's not much that will stop them. I would point out that forums in general are pretty tough on pseudo science. Just try starting an exotic cable thread over on AVS or Hydrogenaudio! Yikes----BLAM! And those guys have the anti-snake-oil arguments down cold. That kind of thing, at least for me, takes care of all the counter-measures necessary. If you google "The sound of speaker wires", for example, you'll get plenty of scientific truth on the first page of results. That means if the Audiophile is searching for truth, it's easy to find.

And that means I, for one, don't need to club him with it. Besides, if I turn one guy away from the dark side, the snake-oil production won't slow up a tiny bit.
 
A

avengineer

Banned
I completely understand where you are coming from with your post, and to an extent, I agree.

The thing I have a problem with is not that they are elitist jerks, but that they live in the dark ages of audio and refuse to let go. If that's what they believe, I don't really care, let them be fools. The big issue is that they spread this nonsense and allow it to continue! They held VERY high positions at a few large companies that most of us have heard of...that is scary!

They are responsible for the spread of myths and nonsense and they don't deserve a 'get out of jail free card', IMO.

I take "issue" with anyone who ignores science and speaks like they know the truth. Do I have issue with these two personally? No, of course not, they are nice guys, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be called out. :D
In my experience as a custom installer I've found a much more encouraging situation. Many who are considering getting into a serious audio system, 2 channel or home theater, are on the net researching. In the process they usually ask the question about exotic wires, perhaps just in a google search, perhaps on a forum. The rather strong answer they get is very scientific. In seven years in consumer audio I've never once been asked "what kind of speaker wire do you use?" Nobody has even cared! One client asked "what's up with the expensive wire?" I gave him a brief explanation, he said "Oh, I thought so." Mostly, the result of their research isn't to pursue exotic stuff, it's to find the best performance at the lowest price.

The concern for myth propagation is largely unfounded. The amount of that the really goes on is actually very minimal. With one exception: the power conditioning guys. But it's still not an issue with customers wanting the magic. It just never comes up. I know people in high places seem vocal, but the message isn't landing in general.
 
brianedm

brianedm

Audioholic General
In my experience as a custom installer I've found a much more encouraging situation. Many who are considering getting into a serious audio system, 2 channel or home theater, are on the net researching. In the process they usually ask the question about exotic wires, perhaps just in a google search, perhaps on a forum. The rather strong answer they get is very scientific. In seven years in consumer audio I've never once been asked "what kind of speaker wire do you use?" Nobody has even cared! One client asked "what's up with the expensive wire?" I gave him a brief explanation, he said "Oh, I thought so." Mostly, the result of their research isn't to pursue exotic stuff, it's to find the best performance at the lowest price.

The concern for myth propagation is largely unfounded. The amount of that the really goes on is actually very minimal. With one exception: the power conditioning guys. But it's still not an issue with customers wanting the magic. It just never comes up. I know people in high places seem vocal, but the message isn't landing in general.
I actually went in for a power conditioner because I liked the idea of battery back up more than anything. If it protects and extends the life of my gear that's an added bonus. Power outages are rare here, but if they happen I'd rather shut everything down properly (and still be able to pvr things :p), then have everything shut off in an instant due to no power.
 
A

avengineer

Banned
I actually went in for a power conditioner because I liked the idea of battery back up more than anything. If it protects and extends the life of my gear that's an added bonus. Power outages are rare here, but if they happen I'd rather shut everything down properly (and still be able to pvr things :p), then have everything shut off in an instant due to no power.
...and I do sell power conditioners, but for the right reasons. I'm not on board with the idea that they improve performance of video and audio equipment.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
One thing you have to realize is, a true Audiophile is so by choice, and he enjoys being an audiophile. His amazing ability to discern minute differences in components that cannot even be measured by any method now known to man pleases him. His quest for audio nirvana is, in his view, a noble one, a worthy if nearly unachievable cause. He must, therefore, be dismissive of science to at least some extent, as being inadequate in its ability to describe the effects components (and that includes wire, connectors, physical mounts, etc.) have on the resulting audio quality.

All of that makes him happy, partly because he feels he is a member of the elite, partly because he has become self-agrandized in his quest and listening abilities, and partly because he can perceive things other mortals cannot.

To those not sharing the calling, all of that rolled together might seem to paint the picture of an elitist jerk. But perhaps the balanced view is, he's just another guy striving for happiness in a world that tends to pull in the other direction.

Is the Audiophile any different from the collector? Regardless of what he collects, cars, coins, art, baseball cards, he's striving for a degree of "perfection" in his collection, he's a member of the elite, and his knowledge supersedes that of his constituents, at least in his area of expertise.

I advance that we let the Audiophile, Collector, and all other potentially obsessive compulsives have their day in the sun. We aren't here to withdraw happiness from our fellow man, even if we don't find our own moves in the same direction. And yes, even if what he believes is total horse hockey. He's not hurting anyone, with the possible exception of himself, with his beliefs. There actually are bigger fish to fry.

I'd rather smile from a distance than actively try to discredit every mythological belief a rabid audiophile may have. Or, even better, show him something that really does make a difference. Add that bit of acoustic fuzz to kill an early reflection. Nudge his listening chair to the real dead center. Calibrate his turntable. Then, share a favorite recording.

In the end, Blue Smoke or not, it's about enjoying the sound. And enjoying good sound should make us all happy.
Ya. Riiiiiight:p:rolleyes:
 
wshuff

wshuff

Audioholic
Interesting discussion. Wish I had more time to read it but I have to go paint my CDs green with a marker, get my cables out of the freezer, and then beat my wife.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
One thing I noticed in this discussion is that if those gentlemen are "high up" in large audio companies and do marketing and/or engineering for them, then their responses and beliefs should come as no surprise. They engineer and market the exact type of equipment we know is pseudoscience, so admitting what they make their livelihood with is BS would make them look more stupid than trying to convince you it's true. If you had bought their BS and told people they were right, who then told other people, so on and so forth. They've just made more money for their company. If not, oh well.

Or they could just believe everything they say.:D
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
=monkish54;936425

Later in the evening, both audiophiles told stories of how they can hear 25khz, and how walking into a store with a bunch of old TVs giving off 19khz tones was like nails to a chalkboard.

One of the audiophiles said that vinyl is better because it has "unlimited resolution", meaning it can play past 192khz sample rate.

We can hear that high! Let's say we had two instruments and, to make it easier, they are playing two sine waves. One at 11khz and the other at 12khz. The amplifier sees this as a summation of both waves. 11 x 12 is 132khz*, this sound needs to be reproduced because our ears hear 11khz and 12khz with different hairs, which means they hear them separately. If the 132khz sound is not being produced, our ears won't be able to hear the 11khz and 12khz sound independently, and the notes will sound very stretched across the soundstage.
I'll be quick and precise:

1) The 19kHz signal, go find the Mythbusters episode on 19kHz where they play it in a "haunted cabin".

2) When you are dealing with vinyl, the sampling rate is meaningless. Sampling rate is only useful in the digital domain. In the analog domain, the signal is continuously variable and not sampled, sample rate is meaningless when applied to vinyl (unless discussing the mastering process).

3) 11kHz tone and 12kHz tone DOES NOT make a 132kHz tone. That is not how sound "adds"

4) You hear the sounds with different hairs in your ears???? NO. Hairs aren't what produces the sounds we hear. It is the eardrum

5) Frigging Audiofools!
 
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Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
4) You hear the sounds with different hairs in your ears???? NO. Hairs aren't what produces the sounds we hear. It is the eardrum
Well, we kind of do. They aren't actually hairs, but they are hair-like nerve endings called cilia that are inside of the cochlea.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Well, we kind of do. They aren't actually hairs, but they are hair-like nerve endings called cilia that are inside of the cochlea.
OK. I'll give you that one. Now, any studies that prove that different cilia (not hairs) detect different freqs?
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
OK. I'll give you that one. Now, any studies that prove that different cilia (not hairs) detect different freqs?
I recall reading that years ago. Here's one site that I found quickly just now. I don't have proof for you, though, just some supporting statements.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
...

I'm 19 and my hearing caps at ~19khz.

...
Next time you talk to them, if it ever happens again, tell them that the "old" TV that they heard emitted 15,750 kHz, if they really wanted to know about reality;):D and the facts.
 

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