Thinking About New ~ $1k Sub

[Nick250]

I am considering a subwoofer upgrade. I have had my current Hsu VTF2 for about 6 years and here are some of my thoughts (room size ~ 450 sf). Existing speakers, 3 Paradigm Studio Monitors up front as LRC. BA VR940s as surrounds. I run all speakers small crossed over at 80Hz. Please jump in on any or all of the points.

Thanks, Nick

Goal:

Less than a one thousand dollar US small footprint, say ~ 12x12x12 that can do it all, level down to ~18Hz and be tight and musical. Attractive would be a plus since it will be in the living room.

If necessary I will compromise on size before SQ.

I would move the old VTF2 to the 160 SF den. Will it over power a room of that size (other than visually of course)?

Has subwoofer technology progressed in the past six years such that for use with music, newer subs would provide a noticeable improvement in SQ over the old VTF2?

Given that the old Hsu has been used about 7 hours a week for six years (about 2200 hours total) , I suspect it has plenty of life left. Is that a reasonable assumption?

I listen to more music than movies.

I originally thought one of the Deff Tech Super Cubes would fill the bill but subsequent research on Google seems to indicate that Deff Tech cooks the books with their published specs and also that they are frequently in need repair after a year or two. I would love for this to be wrong because they meet my size and price (I can get 15% to 20% off at my local B&M usually and they carry the Def Tech line) constraints. Anything to contradict the this?

The Rocket UFW 10 looks like a great deal on the low end of the price spectrum and meets size constrains. On sale for $399 right now, but I wonder it go low enough with enough dbs to get the job done on LFEs. Maybe two of them?

SVS has a small footprint 12 inch driver sub coming out soon. Perhaps I should wait, but if something exists now then I probably would not.

That's all for now. Thanks every one.

Nick

 

[j_garcia]

Less than a one thousand dollar US small footprint, say ~ 12x12x12 that can do it all, level down to ~18Hz and be tight and musical. Attractive would be a plus since it will be in the living room.

HIGHLY unlikely that you are going to find this in one package. I'd wait for the SVS sealed sub at 14" square. Should be below your price point too, and will likely give us a whole new definition to performance from a small sub.

Have you considered the VTF-3? It is much larger than the VTF-2, but it will definitely take you to the next level and isn't $1K either.

 

[Sheep]

The closest thing out there right now would be a Velodyne SPL od DD. But only the SPL1200R would hit that note (with not much authority) and the DD would be over budget.

I agree with J, wait for the sealed SVS.

SheepStar

 

[Nick250]

HIGHLY unlikely that you are going to find this in one package. I'd wait for the SVS sealed sub at 14" square. Should be below your price point too, and will likely give us a whole new definition to performance from a small sub.

Have you considered the VTF-3? It is much larger than the VTF-2, but it will definitely take you to the next level and isn't $1K either.

While I can go some in size, the VTF-3 is bigger than I can accomodate. I read the press release a while ago about the new SVS sub, but don't remember if they had release date or not. Think I will fire off a email to them and find what latest is on that.

Nick

 

[kramskoi]

I am considering a subwoofer upgrade. I have had my current Hsu VTF2 for about 6 years and here are some of my thoughts (room size ~ 450 sf). Existing speakers, 3 Paradigm Studio Monitors up front as LRC. BA VR940s as surrounds. I run all speakers small crossed over at 80Hz. Please jump in on any or all of the points.

Thanks, Nick

Goal:

Less than a one thousand dollar US small footprint, say ~ 12x12x12 that can do it all, level down to ~18Hz and be tight and musical. Attractive would be a plus since it will be in the living room.

If necessary I will compromise on size before SQ.

I would move the old VTF2 to the 160 SF den. Will it over power a room of that size (other than visually of course)?

Has subwoofer technology progressed in the past six years such that for use with music, newer subs would provide a noticeable improvement in SQ over the old VTF2?

Given that the old Hsu has been used about 7 hours a week for six years (about 2200 hours total) , I suspect it has plenty of life left. Is that a reasonable assumption?

I listen to more music than movies.

I originally thought one of the Deff Tech Super Cubes would fill the bill but subsequent research on Google seems to indicate that Deff Tech cooks the books with their published specs and also that they are frequently in need repair after a year or two. I would love for this to be wrong because they meet my size and price (I can get 15% to 20% off at my local B&M usually and they carry the Def Tech line) constraints. Anything to contradict the this?

The Rocket UFW 10 looks like a great deal on the low end of the price spectrum and meets size constrains. On sale for $399 right now, but I wonder it go low enough with enough dbs to get the job done on LFEs. Maybe two of them?

SVS has a small footprint 12 inch driver sub coming out soon. Perhaps I should wait, but if something exists now then I probably would not.

That's all for now. Thanks every one.

Nick

Two of the ufw-10's would perform pretty good above ~25Hz...it won't be all-world below that...definitely not down to 18 Hz...they are supposed to be "very" musical though! It starts rolling off in 30 Hz range iirc...and it's high passed, so you don't get the 12dB/oct normal roll-off. I think you may have to think a little bigger for impact at 18Hz. There was a poster who said he was getting 105 dB at 20 Hz...but that was with four of them!...i think at 2 meters in-room...20 Hz is not 18 Hz though.

Sealed equals big box or small kilowatts of power...pick your poison...kilowatt microsubs (ala sunfire) are pretty pricey...perhaps you "should" wait for the sb-12 from SVS...i'm pretty sure it will be in league with the ufw-12...but remember that the ufw-12 is 1 kilowatt and doesn't get anywhere near 18Hz (it's highpassed at 23 Hz and rolls off "rapidly" below 25 Hz ~Ed Mullen) and it's in a larger box than the SB-12 will be.

Personally, to reach a "good" 18Hz in a sealed application, you'll need to move up to a 15"...you'll get impact plus musicality in one package (think Velodyne). A 10 or 12 incher will be working "very" hard...if it can even reach 18 Hz at all. Lots of subs can reach 18Hz but that does'nt mean they can give it the authority that is required.

Maybe you'll decide you can go "bigger"...in that case, the vtf-3 is a sweet upgrade for both music and HT. These are just my opinions...Good luck to you.

 

[NGL_BrSH]

There are two subs that i would buy if i were you.. one of the Def tech supercubes I or II or the one that i'm actually waiting to ship from ENERGY the RC-SUB10.. (couple more weeks)

I've owned a supercube (sold mine for a healthy profit recently as i wait for my matching sub for my system).. it's a great sub.. worked mine real hard day in and day out. They sell a ton of these subs so you're bound to find someone that's had a problem with it.. and as far as "cooking the books" the only truth is to actually listen to them. forget about specs.
I've owned whole def tech systems before as a buget setup and i've never been happier with customer service. I had a pair of towers out of warranty and called them up in baltimore, told them that i had a blown driver.. and without hesitation they sent me a new one FREE.. thats good customer service if you ask me.
I wouldn't doubt definitive.


Here's a link on the subwoofer that is from ENERGY and matches my RC series... looks to be promising.

http://www.energy-speakers.com/v2/about/news.php?id=305

 

[Nick250]

NGL, I will take a look at the Energy sub. Thanks

I heard back from SVS about the new small foot print 12' sealed sub. They said they hope to start shipping by the end of the year. Don't think I want to wait that long.

Anyone have any experience with the Rocket UFW 10 or additional feedback on the Super Cubes?

Thanks, Nick

 

[WorldLeader]

Have you looked at SVS Powered Cylinders? The PCi 20-39 could make 18Hz easily in your room, with good power. It comes down to whether or not you want a big black tube in your room.

 

[Nick250]

Have you looked at SVS Powered Cylinders? The PCi 20-39 could make 18Hz easily in your room, with good power. It comes down to whether or not you want a big black tube in your room.

Yeah, it's the size thing that's the problem with the PCI 20-39. I am sure it kicks out some serious thunder down low.

Nick

 

[Nick250]

Two of the ufw-10's would perform pretty good above ~25Hz...it won't be all-world below that...definitely not down to 18 Hz...they are supposed to be "very" musical though! It starts rolling off in 30 Hz range iirc...and it's high passed, so you don't get the 12dB/oct normal roll-off. I think you may have to think a little bigger for impact at 18Hz. There was a poster who said he was getting 105 dB at 20 Hz...but that was with four of them!...i think at 2 meters in-room...20 Hz is not 18 Hz though.

Sealed equals big box or small kilowatts of power...pick your poison...kilowatt microsubs (ala sunfire) are pretty pricey...perhaps you "should" wait for the sb-12 from SVS...i'm pretty sure it will be in league with the ufw-12...but remember that the ufw-12 is 1 kilowatt and doesn't get anywhere near 18Hz (it's highpassed at 23 Hz and rolls off "rapidly" below 25 Hz ~Ed Mullen) and it's in a larger box than the SB-12 will be.

Personally, to reach a "good" 18Hz in a sealed application, you'll need to move up to a 15"...you'll get impact plus musicality in one package (think Velodyne). A 10 or 12 incher will be working "very" hard...if it can even reach 18 Hz at all. Lots of subs can reach 18Hz but that does'nt mean they can give it the authority that is required.

Maybe you'll decide you can go "bigger"...in that case, the vtf-3 is a sweet upgrade for both music and HT. These are just my opinions...Good luck to you.

Thanks for the response kramskoi. Perhaps I am aiming to low at 18Hz. I am not looking to rattle the dishes, but I am looking for more tactile bass than my old VTF2 is dishing out. What number or what sub for that matter, might provide that tactile feel in my 450 SF room? The SP 12 is too far down the road to consider at this point. The SVS PB10-NSD seems the closest match at this point and it's half my budget! I will measure again, but I think the VTF-3 is just too large for the available space.

Nick

 

[kgb540]

hello! I would suggest an Earthquake MKV-12 or even a MKIV-12. You should be able both of these well within your price range and their performance is extremely close to what you are looking for.

 

[Sheep]

Thanks for the response kramskoi. Perhaps I am aiming to low at 18Hz. I am not looking to rattle the dishes, but I am looking for more tactile bass than my old VTF2 is dishing out. What number or what sub for that matter, might provide that tactile feel in my 450 SF room? The SP 12 is too far down the road to consider at this point. The SVS PB10-NSD seems the closest match at this point and it's half my budget! I will measure again, but I think the VTF-3 is just too large for the available space.

Nick

Maybe you should re arrange your system?

SheepStar

 

[Matt34]

The VTF-3: 22"(h)/15" (w)/23" (d)

The PB-10: 19"(h)/15"(w)/21" (d)

As you see the PB-10 only saves you 2" in depth. I have had both and there is a big difference in performance between the two and with your budget why not get the best that you can given the small difference in size.

 

[mlschifter]

Nick... you might want to give our guys a call as we have a super deal running on UFW-12 right now...

Wishing you all the very best...

mls

 

[Nick250]

The VTF-3: 22"(h)/15" (w)/23" (d)

The PB-10: 19"(h)/15"(w)/21" (d)

As you see the PB-10 only saves you 2" in depth. I have had both and there is a big difference in performance between the two and with your budget why not get the best that you can given the small difference in size.

Matt and Sheep, so as not to be repetitive, this response is to both Matt's post above and to Sheep's immediate previous post since I think you guys are talking along the same lines.

Guys, if I were go with the VTF-3, how location sensitive is it? If it is not too location sensitive I could have more options. It might go snug (very snug) in a front corner beside my left front speaker, or maybe two feet behind the listening position against a wall or 10 feet directly behind the listening position against the back dining room wall. In my condo the living room and dining area are one big room. This last location would be ~ 20 feet directly back from the front speakers with the listening position exactly between them i.e. 10 ft from speakers in front and 10 ft from sub behind. Those are the possible locations that I can think of. One more thing. If I am going to go bigger rather than smaller I will now have to consider the SVS PB12-NSD. How might the PB12 and VTF-3 compare in my scenario? They are probably a bunch of posts on this so I will do a search as well.

Thanks for giving me a hand on this.

Regards, Nick

 

[kramskoi]

Thanks for the response kramskoi. Perhaps I am aiming to low at 18Hz. I am not looking to rattle the dishes, but I am looking for more tactile bass than my old VTF2 is dishing out. What number or what sub for that matter, might provide that tactile feel in my 450 SF room? The SP 12 is too far down the road to consider at this point. The SVS PB10-NSD seems the closest match at this point and it's half my budget! I will measure again, but I think the VTF-3 is just too large for the available space.

Nick

the pb-10 is hands down cost effective and smaller than the vtf-3...I would caution you though...maybe you should examine more carefully just what you are hoping to achieve with this upgrade...the vtf-2 is an outstanding subwoofer and staying with a 10 inch driver, as the pb-10 uses, may end up disappointing you a little. The vtf-2 can already, more or less, reach 20 hz (i think 94dB in-room ~Tom N.)

The svs "will" be an improvement, but will it be enough, after the fact, to have justified the cost? Will it put a smile on your face in comparison to the vtf-2?

The good news with svs, is that there's a trial period. You can purchase then decide over that period if it's enough to justify inclusion in your system.

I'm not saying which manufacturer you should buy from, just that you may want to entertain the thought of moving up to a larger driver. The svs pb-10 is the best i think you could hope for in price and performance for a 10 inch subwoofer. If that does'nt satisfy your needs, then things simply get more expensive trying to maintain a small footprint while simultaneously providing everything you are seeking.

The only recommendation i can give for a sealed 12" for HT would be the ufw-12...PLENTY of slam from 25-80Hz (very strong from 40Hz on up)...i was in love with this sub for a long time...

I would personally find a way to shoehorn a slightly larger cabinet..."if possible"...and move up to a 12" driver...again, just my opinion. Good luck to you.

 

[j_garcia]

I've owned the PB-10 and the VTF-2, and had them at the same time. The PB-10 won hands down in extension. The VTF-2 simply did not have the same authority at 20Hz that the PB-10 does. IMO, the fact is, the PB-10 costs LESS than the VTF-2.

Having said that, I completely agree that if you are looking for a more significant upgrade, you will need to move to a decent 12" sub.

 

[AVRat]

Nick,
The Def Tech SC I will provide the performance you are looking for. I am still amazed at how much comes out of this little sub. Watching WOTW again last night in my 3400+ cu. ft. concrete basement HT setup with the couch vibrating as if the ground was shaking is a good indication of its tactile response. Remember, audition, audition, audition.

 

[cyberbri]

Nick... you might want to give our guys a call as we have a super deal running on UFW-12 right now...

Wishing you all the very best...

mls

I was going to recommend that. IIRC it's a 21" cube, but in a 450sq foot room, with average of 8' ceilings, that's a huge 3600 square feet to fill. 2x UFW-10 or UFW-12 would be very nice. Or 2x HSU VTF-3 (I have 1 of these - digs to 16-18Hz with authority), or the upcoming HO with the turbo add-on. Or 1 or 2 VTF-3s with turbo attachment upgrades later.

Being able to place the sub close to the LP, like behind the couch or to the side, would help give the maximum impact, especially if you are only going with one sub. Whatever sub you get, the biggest factor in how good it will perform is the room and where it's placed within the room.


And yes, I think HSU subs have seen numerous upgrades to drivers, amps/electronics (better, more watts), and enclosures over the years.

 

[Nick250]

the pb-10 is hands down cost effective and smaller than the vtf-3...I would caution you though...maybe you should examine more carefully just what you are hoping to achieve with this upgrade...the vtf-2 is an outstanding subwoofer and staying with a 10 inch driver, as the pb-10 uses, may end up disappointing you a little. The vtf-2 can already, more or less, reach 20 hz (i think 94dB in-room ~Tom N.)

The svs "will" be an improvement, but will it be enough, after the fact, to have justified the cost? Will it put a smile on your face in comparison to the vtf-2?

The good news with svs, is that there's a trial period. You can purchase then decide over that period if it's enough to justify inclusion in your system.

I'm not saying which manufacturer you should buy from, just that you may want to entertain the thought of moving up to a larger driver. The svs pb-10 is the best i think you could hope for in price and performance for a 10 inch subwoofer. If that does'nt satisfy your needs, then things simply get more expensive trying to maintain a small footprint while simultaneously providing everything you are seeking.

The only recommendation i can give for a sealed 12" for HT would be the ufw-12...PLENTY of slam from 25-80Hz (very strong from 40Hz on up)...i was in love with this sub for a long time...

I would personally find a way to shoehorn a slightly larger cabinet..."if possible"...and move up to a 12" driver...again, just my opinion. Good luck to you.

Agreed. It seems at this point a 12" is the more realistic solution. My recollection is the that UFW 12 has had good reviews.

Nick