Things they want me to believe

Z

Zman7505

Audioholic Intern
Here, you can ask him

Nelson@passlabs

He loves talking amps and does reply.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Education comes in many forms. Not just a degree. What happens when the actual person who designed the product states you should do this or that to improve sound? Like warming up the amp, what then ?
THEN I would take everything that person says with a HUGE grain of salt. My next question would be WHY? Saying something is beneficial does not always mean that it is. After hours of listening to my system, I am pretty sure it doesn't sound better than when I first turned it on.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Here, you can ask him

Nelson@passlabs

He loves talking amps and does reply.
Why don't YOU ask him and tell us what he says since I am not the least curious at the answer? As mentioned, tubes warming up I can see. SS amps? Not likely.
 
Z

Zman7505

Audioholic Intern
Do you even know who Nelson pass is?

And again, several reasons possible for your system. Your experience and knowledge, the system capabilities and your room. All of it plays a part.

And in your particular system it may be too small of the difference to discern so there are variances and how big a difference it can and cannot make warming up a particular device
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I know who Nelson Pass is. I know the companies he's worked for and their products. I have worked in the semiconductor industry for ~20 years, I know how chips work.

My systems have evolved over the years and many, many changes have been made, many different amps.

Dug a little and found that someone else already asked him:

So I just talked to Pass Labs and he said the reason the amp sounds better is simple: Heat. The caps reach full capacitance quickly but the mylar needs heat to sound best. As the current and bias come up, the radiant heat affects everything in the amp... obviously in a good way. He mentioned that they can actually put a dead cold amp on the 'scope and watch the distortion curve deepen and then decrease as the amp warms up, which is why final tuning isn't done until the amps are at full boil. We both found it ironic that 30 years ago, you could fry a semiconductor if you got too close with a soldering iron, yet some of the chips today don't reach full potential until they've got 400 degrees of heat in them.

So there you go boys, the answer is heat.
Someone want to get the scope readings from him?
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
So only EE are people with experience and education ?

Not the individual who's been making wine for 50years?

Not the musician making and producing music?

These experts are experts in their fields. Could I point out an inaccurate composition or musician in an entire Orchestra, absolutely not. But there are people who can and guess what, they're not electrical engineers.

And poor algebra, I wouldn't be able to tell. I suck at math .so I'm easily fooled, but not an expert. It's not just about pseudo-science , It's also experience and knowledge
I agree that experience and knowledge are useful, especially to help spot the BS snake oil vendors.
 
Z

Zman7505

Audioholic Intern
I'm not here insulting you or your knowledge, you're the perfect example of a learned individual.

So you have an answer as to why it sounds better from the man who designed it but evidently his words aren't good enough. His background and knowledge isn't sufficient. His expertise doesn't hold value, only numbers
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I don't want just numbers. I need numbers to show there IS a difference, THEN one can listen and see if those numbers actually result in something audible. Often we can measure something and it does not translate into something meaningful. Other times we can hear things that numbers can't tell you.

It takes me at least a week to dial in my speaker positioning when I move things around or buy new speakers. I know my systems, I know my room, my ears, the material I use to evaluate, etc... and I can't say I've heard it. After 30min to an hour of listening, I am not really listening for that either though, but would it honestly be audible?

Another comment in the thread that quote came from said that Pass's designs may actually lend themselves specifically to this effect, as in the components he chooses and how the circuits are designed. So his recommendation for HIS products based on his experience with them may have some merit.
 
Z

Zman7505

Audioholic Intern
Your example of speaker placement is an awesome example. You know your system and can hear the difference in speaker placement but another individual may not. You are more experienced and know what to listen for.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Then both sides are true, everyone here is saying all those items are false with no reservations at all.

I wouldn't compare myself with a composer, conductor or musician, and they are trained and have experience in hearing small nuances in notes and compositions that the every day person would not the same holds true for these sorts of modifications.

If the individual doesn't know what to listen for or how to listen properly, if the equipment isn't up to par, if the room is poor than its easy to say something isn't occurring when so many obstacles are in the way.

There are people trained to design speakers and all they do is go out and listen to music in order to properly recreate the experience. You have world class chefs who can taste small differences in food or sommelier for wine. They're trained for that stuff

And then you have individuals who say that anyone who states these things are true give everyone else a bad name. That sort of black and white doesn't help determine what's occurring and only multiplies animosity and promotes confrontation.
No, that wouldn't necessarily be true.

How do these composers/conductors/musicians come into play in this discussion?
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I don't want just numbers. I need numbers to show there IS a difference, THEN one can listen and see if those numbers actually result in something audible. Often we can measure something and it does not translate into something meaningful. Other times we can hear things that numbers can't tell you.
I've been reading this thread with increasing interest as I see an eager newbie, Zman7505, renew this very old argument about what sounds good in audio, what is a waste of money, and how to learn what does & doesn't make a difference. The only way these questions can be answered is by listening tests.

Then I saw the old Nelson Pass quote about amplifier performance amd heat. Note that he spoke about measurable amplifier performance, and said nothing directly about how an amp actually sounds when playing music through speakers. Measurable changes in amplifier performance, as seen with lab bench equipment, may or may not be audible to a listener.

I was about to tune up and say all this, when I saw j_garcia said it first. Thanks.

Often, people who argue over points like this fail to remember that most audio gear greatly benefits by being good enough to get the job done while remaining reliable over time. But when designs and build qualities get extended to the point of being the best available, little if anything is gained.

A simple example: silver speaker wire vs. copper wire. Both conduct electricity. Silver conducts better than copper by a margin of 4%, but costs quite a lot more than copper. If you remember the design goal of good enough, silver isn't worth the extra cost.

The same goes for other, sometimes very expensive pieces of electronic audio gear. You always have to ask, does it actually sound better? And at what cost?
 
Z

Zman7505

Audioholic Intern
Very well stated and I must admit, newbie here but not in the industry :)
 
Z

Zman7505

Audioholic Intern
No, that wouldn't necessarily be true.

How do these composers/conductors/musicians come into play in this discussion?
They come into play because they are trained to hear things the every day person wouldn't. Just like experienced people who can tell a difference in wire etc.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
They come into play because they are trained to hear things the every day person wouldn't. Just like experienced people who can tell a difference in wire etc.
Got some examples of such people in any credible tests? Sounds like marketing nonsense....
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
They come into play because they are trained to hear things the every day person wouldn't. Just like experienced people who can tell a difference in wire etc.
It isn't that they hear things others don't, it is just a focus on specific things by someone who has the experience of listening for those things. Those people, just like the every day person, will also tend to focus on the specific things they're accustomed to listening for. That may make them better listeners, particularly in their specialization, but it doesn't necessarily make them hear "better". If you point those things out to ANYONE, likely they can pick them out too. Will a guitarist listen for the guitar or get the whole picture, you know what I mean?

I haven't played an instrument since I was young. That didn't make me an expert then, nor does it make me unable to hear "properly" today, now that I no longer play music.
 
Z

Zman7505

Audioholic Intern
So
Got some examples of such people in any credible tests? Sounds like marketing nonsense....
So you wouldn't believe without a test that an established conductor of a world renowned philharmonic wouldn't be able to tell if an individual in his Orchestra isn't playing exactly correctly?

I shouldn't believe the opinion of Garcia in this thread about the quality of one conductor over another unless I see a test? He has over 20 years experience. I'll take his word on it.

Their respective experience and expertise means nothing?
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
They come into play because they are trained to hear things the every day person wouldn't. Just like experienced people who can tell a difference in wire etc.
The argument that 'experts can hear differences in audio gear that untrained listeners cannot' has been tested. Toole and Olive, in their extensive studies of audio listening tests, clearly showed that experienced & trained listeners could hear differences among loudspeakers no better than untrained listeners. They did the same with male vs. female listeners.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
So


So you wouldn't believe without a test that an established conductor of a world renowned philharmonic wouldn't be able to tell if an individual in his Orchestra isn't playing exactly correctly?

I shouldn't believe the opinion of Garcia in this thread about the quality of one conductor over another unless I see a test? He has over 20 years experience. I'll take his word on it.

Their respective experience and expertise means nothing?
We're talking about audio reproduction at home, not the conductor at work. Do you know of a conductor who believes he/she can hear differences in audio cabling? I'm trying to get your point, but....
 
Z

Zman7505

Audioholic Intern
The argument that 'experts can hear differences in audio gear that untrained listeners cannot' has been tested. Toole and Olive, in their extensive studies of audio listening tests, clearly showed that experienced & trained listeners could hear differences among loudspeakers no better than untrained listeners. They did the same with male vs. female listeners.
And I would love to see that but the other question is, was it material they were accustomed to?
 
Z

Zman7505

Audioholic Intern
We're talking about audio reproduction at home, not the conductor at work. Do you know of a conductor who believes he/she can hear differences in audio cabling? I'm trying to get your point, but....
My point is I will take the word of an educated individual in their respective field of expertise. Not needing to see a schematic, frequency response or calibration data
 
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