Things they want me to believe

[mtrycrafts]

That sounds reasonable....but is everything measurable...sense of soundstage, instrument separation, "fullness".. .? I am a headphone user, and I think these qualities are real yet subjective.

Yes, they are real to get timing and phase differences to arrive at those perceptions.
An instrument is a single source of sound. That signal arrives differently at you two ears and you get those clues or perception. speakers and headphones are two sources of the same instrument, not one to convey that impression. I am sure those signal differences can be measure/. But, it is irrelevant.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

I've tried many different things just to hear for myself. So far, it has all been smoke and mirrors.

You can hear smoke and mirrors?

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Just Sony processor/ multi channel receiver. I like headphones for music, ....

What is wrong with using your Sony gear as your headphone amp?

 

[Wildings]

What is wrong with using your Sony gear as your headphone amp?

Source is my computer to Musical Fidelity V-Link 192 (24 bit 192 khz USB to SPIDF convertor) to DAC to specific headphone amp. Totally separate from HT in another location. Also, if I were to use Sony would require long cable run.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Imagine how much paper they would save and printing ink.
Perhaps then they may go out of business for lack of subscribers.
Hey, what a thought.

to rephrase a quote: A Stereophool born every minute

 

[Wildings]

to rephrase a quote: A Stereophool born every minute

I had a free subscription for couple of years and let go last year..the record reviews were interesting - I can't abide Rolling Stone. I think Audio Advisor sales material is possibly filled with more nonsense.

 

[Bucknekked]

Thank you for the welcome. I am not yet in the camp that "if you cant measure it, it doesn't exist".

Wildings
Whatever camp you happen to be in, welcome to the Ah !
I am in the live and let live camp most of the time : whatever you enjoy: go for it.
If you've been listening and playing with audio for 45 years, you certainly have earned your opinions and positions.

Is everything measurable? Can you measure everything you hear in an audio system? Excellent philosophical questions. Considering the items you mentioned (soundstage, instrument placement, depth etc) I would say there's room for discussion simply because none of those items exist outside of your brain.

Your soundsystem, headphones or speakers, vibrates the air with some waves in the audible spectrum. That's about all it does. The music, the soundstage and all that goes in to the stuff we enjoy so much is assembled in your fantastic brain and presented to your conscious mind as a song. There is no soundstage or stereo image at the front of the room. Only inside your brain.

So, I would suggest there's plenty to be experienced with an audio system that is not strictly measurable with a tool. I would also say most of the important elements can be measured in one form or another. But everything? I think there's room for a little wiggling.

 

[Speedskater]

It takes a great deal of faith to believe any of the points in the first post because they are all incorrect.
While yes it's possible for cables to sound different, it seldom happens.

 

[Zman7505]

My non tube amps sound completely different when warmed up. It's an obvious difference. And although I never would have actually thought, a heard a huge difference when I listened to different power cord on a system (not mine).

Just because you may not hear it doesn't mean it's not true

 

[Speedskater]

...................................................
Just because you may not hear it doesn't mean it's not true

Just because a person hears it doesn't mean that it is true.
There are many uncontrolled variables is these kinds of listening experiences.

 

[Zman7505]

Just because a person hears it doesn't mean that it is true.
There are many uncontrolled variables is these kinds of listening experiences.

Then both sides are true, everyone here is saying all those items are false with no reservations at all.

I wouldn't compare myself with a composer, conductor or musician, and they are trained and have experience in hearing small nuances in notes and compositions that the every day person would not the same holds true for these sorts of modifications.

If the individual doesn't know what to listen for or how to listen properly, if the equipment isn't up to par, if the room is poor than its easy to say something isn't occurring when so many obstacles are in the way.

There are people trained to design speakers and all they do is go out and listen to music in order to properly recreate the experience. You have world class chefs who can taste small differences in food or sommelier for wine. They're trained for that stuff

And then you have individuals who say that anyone who states these things are true give everyone else a bad name. That sort of black and white doesn't help determine what's occurring and only multiplies animosity and promotes confrontation.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Then both sides are true, everyone here is saying all those items are false with no reservations at all.

I wouldn't compare myself with a composer, conductor or musician, and they are trained and have experience in hearing small nuances in notes and compositions that the every day person would not the same holds true for these sorts of modifications.

If the individual doesn't know what to listen for or how to listen properly, if the equipment isn't up to par, if the room is poor than its easy to say something isn't occurring when so many obstacles are in the way.

There are people trained to design speakers and all they do is go out and listen to music in order to properly recreate the experience. You have world class chefs who can taste small differences in food or sommelier for wine. They're trained for that stuff

And then you have individuals who say that anyone who states these things are true give everyone else a bad name. That sort of black and white doesn't help determine what's occurring and only multiplies animosity and promotes confrontation.

There are indeed two sides of the argument. The side of science and side of pseudo-science.
Just because you THINK you can hear the difference between two (adequate sized) speaker or power cables, doesn't make it so. A human brain is very sophisticated device and can easily fool itself. It's really not hard.
It is been scientifically proven in many experiments, including this one https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170814092949.htm
Same applies to cables, risers and warming up solid state amps nonsense.

Further recommended reading:
https://youarenotsosmart.com/ including one of my favs: https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/03/25/the-sunk-cost-fallacy/

 

[Zman7505]

There are indeed two sides of the argument. The side of science and side of pseudo-science.
Just because you THINK you can hear the difference between two (adequate sized) speaker or power cables, doesn't make it so. A human brain is very sophisticated device and can easily fool itself. It's really not hard.
It is been scientifically proven in many experiments, including this one https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170814092949.htm
Same applies to cables, risers and warming up solid state amps nonsense.

Further recommended reading:
https://youarenotsosmart.com/ including one of my favs: https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/03/25/the-sunk-cost-fallacy/

But there's a huge issue that I see with all those, you're testing non experts. People not trained to understand what actually makes a great wine.

I totally agree that myself and everyone else is susceptible to the same effect but not with all categories. You would not expect to fool a mathematician with poor algebra.

The farmville is interesting especially the movie ticket. No, I wouldn't buy a new one cause I can gst a replacement. Not because I feel I felt a loss of the money that was allocated.

 

[lovinthehd]

Slightly above average stuff...use more as HT these days. Definitive BP 2000 main front and same brand rear, high front, center, and sub. Just Sony processor/ multi channel receiver. I like headphones for music, and have owned various gear set ups...tubes and solid state. Use Tidal premium to stream, and J River. We have come a long way since MP3 files...although some say the difference is not audible to the human ear.

Never was into mp3 files much except to use in my car, usually just rip CD to flac myself but high bit rate mp3 is quite good in any case. Not a tube guy, no desire. Tidal I tried, gave up due poor format and lack of choices, use foobar2000 mostly myself.

PS back to the Audeze cable thing...what does Audeze say when you tell them the cable that came with $2400 headphones was inadequate/not up to snuff?

 

[Wildings]

Never was into mp3 files much except to use in my car, usually just rip CD to flac myself but high bit rate mp3 is quite good in any case. Not a tube guy, no desire. Tidal I tried, gave up due poor format and lack of choices, use foobar2000 mostly myself.

PS back to the Audeze cable thing...what does Audeze say when you tell them the cable that came with $2400 headphones was inadequate/not up to snuff?

Audeze has terrible customer service, and a former employee who now works in another lab told me they do not use particularly good materials. My experience with them was very dissapointing. My cable failed where it enters the connector at the ear, less than one week out of warantee....too bad for me was their attutide, buy a new one full price. When I replaced with silver, made by a former Audeze employee, I noticed a not subtle difference... he repaired the original as well so I would have a spare. I am pleased with the headphones, and prefer them to Grado's flagship which I had previously. (Apples to oranges I realise)

 

[slipperybidness]

But there's a huge issue that I see with all those, you're testing non experts. People not trained to understand what actually makes a great wine.

I totally agree that myself and everyone else is susceptible to the same effect but not with all categories. You would not expect to fool a mathematician with poor algebra.

The farmville is interesting especially the movie ticket. No, I wouldn't buy a new one cause I can gst a replacement. Not because I feel I felt a loss of the money that was allocated.

But, these "experts" are "experts" at what?

Listening to details? Are they EEs?

Nope, they are "experts" at fooling themselves, fooling you, and using pseudo-science and fancy technical jargon to trick the ignorant.

The mathematician argument does not work here, becuase "poor algebra" is not the same as "pseudo-science".

 

[Zman7505]

But, these "experts" are "experts" at what?

Listening to details? Are they EEs?

Nope, they are "experts" at fooling themselves, fooling you, and using pseudo-science and fancy technical jargon to trick the ignorant.

The mathematician argument does not work here, becuase "poor algebra" is not the same as "pseudo-science".

So only EE are people with experience and education ?

Not the individual who's been making wine for 50years?

Not the musician making and producing music?

These experts are experts in their fields. Could I point out an inaccurate composition or musician in an entire Orchestra, absolutely not. But there are people who can and guess what, they're not electrical engineers.

And poor algebra, I wouldn't be able to tell. I suck at math .so I'm easily fooled, but not an expert. It's not just about pseudo-science , It's also experience and knowledge

 

[j_garcia]

An "expert" doesn't have to be "educated" to be proficient at something, however when a manufacturer cannot give ANY data validating their ridiculous claims, then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know something is not right.

 

[Zman7505]

An "expert" doesn't have to be "educated" to be proficient at something, however when a manufacturer cannot give ANY data validating their ridiculous claims, then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know something is not right.

Education comes in many forms. Not just a degree. What happens when the actual person who designed the product states you should do this or that to improve sound? Like warming up the amp, what then ?

 

[Speedskater]

Education comes in many forms. Not just a degree. What happens when the actual person who designed the product states you should do this or that to improve sound? Like warming up the amp, what then ?

You should ask them:
Why didn't they use a good design that doesn't require warm-up?