B

Bill R

Audiophyte
Hi everyone,

Thermal shutdown question. I have a Denon AVR-X2700H running a pair of Martin Login 60XTi's. I know it's a little low on power for these speakers but I can't afford a better amp currently. I like to crank it up when I am by myself, I have been around home and car audio my whole life and I am good about knowing where to run the volume, depending upon the type of music. But for some reason this amp just doesn't like more than 5-10 minutes at around 3/4s volume(68 - 71ish) on the volume control. The amp has 3-4" of top clearance and good flow front to back. Is it safe to add cooling like a fan and if so any good ideas? Or is adding cooling likely to cause damage or a waste of time.

Thank you in advance.
Bill
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah, add 2 or 3 big 150mm USB fans atop the AVR. Works every time. :D

Also, I would change the power mode to ECO or Economy mode if the X2700 has it, which will help cool the amps. Or try this first before adding the fans.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
AC Infinity has solid product, either independent fans designed to be placed on top or a complete smart option like their AirCom T8

or

Of course, there are many other options out there, too.

Most important is that you need to always make certain you have room above AND ON THE SIDES of the AVR. Also, the back should be open and not closed. Technically, I think they spec something like 6" of open space on the sides and above.

Those AC Infinity products will vent directionally. If you do not have an open back cabinet, you will need to aim them forward into your room. Or if you like that AirCom unit, get the front vent option.

Because you have so little space, avoid fans that just pull air up and directly into the shelf above. That won't help you out much.

ECO mode may help, but it will also nerf your amp stage a little.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Hi everyone,

Thermal shutdown question. I have a Denon AVR-X2700H running a pair of Martin Login 60XTi's. I know it's a little low on power for these speakers but I can't afford a better amp currently. I like to crank it up when I am by myself, I have been around home and car audio my whole life and I am good about knowing where to run the volume, depending upon the type of music. But for some reason this amp just doesn't like more than 5-10 minutes at around 3/4s volume(68 - 71ish) on the volume control. The amp has 3-4" of top clearance and good flow front to back. Is it safe to add cooling like a fan and if so any good ideas? Or is adding cooling likely to cause damage or a waste of time.

Thank you in advance.
Bill
I would certainly add fans. However I would be very careful, those speakers are a nasty load.

This is the NRC measured impedance curve.



Phase angles are negative during most of that dip, being minus 60 at 100 Hz.

The frequency response is not encouraging.



So I would be very careful with the volume control, fans or not. Those speakers are in the receiver buster category, so I'm not surprised the receiver shuts down. You only have a limited number of thermal shutdowns before the receiver is destroyed due to blowing an output transistor. So be careful and moderate your volume.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Just turn it down a bit until it doesn't happen any more would be a good approach until you can get burlier amps. But a fan can only help.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
I don't think the fans will be sufficient. The OP needs a 3-channel external amplification. Either a Monolith or a Buckeye 3 channel amp would do the job taking into account that he often likes to play his system at high SPL.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I don't think the fans will be sufficient. The OP needs a 3-channel external amplification. Either a Monolith or a Buckeye 3 channel amp would do the job taking into account that he often likes to play his system at high SPL.
The OP says he has no funds for a bigger amp, so he will have to go easy on the volume control fans not withstanding. Those speakers are real receiver busters. But more to the point they are another in a long line of incompetently designed speakers from multiple manufacturers.

The impedance curve is something to be ashamed of. These are big speakers, yet they have a false bass with a 100 Hz peak and then the bass drops out like a falling rock and they are 8 db down by 60 Hz and falling fast.

I don't know how these designers can be happy with that sort of result. But this sort of design malpractice is just common.

I would never pass off a design like that. I have much higher personal standards than that. You would think that with all the design software available now you would never see those sort of results. There is no other way to describe it, other than a disgrace. I bet they have blown more than a few amps and receivers.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Always doom and gloom all the time. :D

I used to own a Denon AVR-3000's which powered various speakers (Philharmonic 3, Dynaudio, Focal, Infinity, B&W, Revel, KEF, TAD, and others). This was in my family room 20' x 18' x 10' ceiling, open to 3 sides.

It would never shut down with any volume when just listening to music (classical, pop, rock). But every time we sang karaoke, it would shut down after about 15 minutes.

So I added a few USB fans atop the Denon AVR. It NEVER SHUT DOWN again even after hours of karaoke during the family parties.

I don't think the older Denon AVR had the ECO power mode or I would have tried that. But the problem was HEAT.

So just COOL IT DOWN and CHILL OUT. :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I don't think the fans will be sufficient. The OP needs a 3-channel external amplification. Either a Monolith or a Buckeye 3 channel amp would do the job taking into account that he often likes to play his system at high SPL.
Not an option for the 2700, no pre outs.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hi everyone,

Thermal shutdown question. I have a Denon AVR-X2700H running a pair of Martin Login 60XTi's. I know it's a little low on power for these speakers but I can't afford a better amp currently. I like to crank it up when I am by myself, I have been around home and car audio my whole life and I am good about knowing where to run the volume, depending upon the type of music. But for some reason this amp just doesn't like more than 5-10 minutes at around 3/4s volume(68 - 71ish) on the volume control. The amp has 3-4" of top clearance and good flow front to back. Is it safe to add cooling like a fan and if so any good ideas? Or is adding cooling likely to cause damage or a waste of time.

Thank you in advance.
Bill
If you are sure it was a thermal shutdown, an external fans as suggested will likely solve that. Even so, I would suggest you turn the volume down to below 65, that is about below -15 on the relative scale. -20 would be safer, obviously. Or change your speakers, get something less demanding on current than the ML60XTIs.

Based on the impedance/phase angle vs frequency, they would torture that little AVR if you play contents that have a lot going in the 60-90 Hz range, where the phase angle is quite high when impedance would be around 4 ohms, so for such contents, volume better be at below 65, preferably below 60. If you have subs, set crossover to 100 Hz would help a lot too, and as such, you could push the volume back up a little to 68 if you really want to try, and risk...
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Always doom and gloom all the time. :D

I used to own a Denon AVR-3000's which powered various speakers (Philharmonic 3, Dynaudio, Focal, Infinity, B&W, Revel, KEF, TAD, and others). This was in my family room 20' x 18' x 10' ceiling, open to 3 sides.

It would never shut down with any volume when just listening to music (classical, pop, rock). But every time we sang karaoke, it would shut down after about 15 minutes.

So I added a few USB fans atop the Denon AVR. It NEVER SHUT DOWN again even after hours of karaoke during the family parties.

I don't think the older Denon AVR had the ECO power mode or I would have tried that. But the problem was HEAT.

So just COOL IT DOWN and CHILL OUT. :D
Your trouble is you have a soft spot for marketers and MBA types.

Almost certainly those drivers are in the wrong sized box for a start.

So, the designer "spot on Bill" designed the speaker with one woofer. Then "a marketer with an MBA to boot, "flash it up Willie" insisted it have two bass drivers. Bill said then we will have to enlarge the speaker. Willie said "that will lower sales and increase freight costs. "Spot on Bill says, "that really is against my ethics and training." "Flash will asks, "do you want a paycheck at the end of the week? I hear you have just bought a house and your first baby is due at the end of the month!'

That is how it goes down.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Your trouble is you have a soft spot for marketers and MBA types.

Almost certainly those drivers are in the wrong sized box for a start.

So, the designer "spot on Bill" designed the speaker with one woofer. Then "a marketer with an MBA to boot, "flash it up Willie" insisted it have two bass drivers. Bill said then we will have to enlarge the speaker. Willie said "that will lower sales and increase freight costs. "Spot on Bill says, "that really is against my ethics and training." "Flash will asks, "do you want a paycheck at the end of the week? I hear you have just bought a house and your first baby is due at the end of the month!'

That is how it goes down.
Your problem is that you make no sense. Always talking about your garage speakers and ancient amps that nobody even cares about.

The OP asks for possible simple fix to his Denon AVR shutting down. I gave him the same example of what happened to my Denon shutting down and the quick fix. It didn’t require anything else other than some $20 fans from Amazon.

Others also offered the advice of keeping the volume safe.

What do you do? Talk about how crappy his speakers are and how everything is going to blow up.

Make fun of all the other speakers because your delusional brain thinks your garage DIY speakers are just worlds better than all the other speakers.

It is extremely simple. See if your brain understands this. He doesn’t want to spend thousands on new speakers or amps.

So just do what the REST OF US are saying - keep the volume safe and put some $20 fans atop his AVR.

No need to talk about your life story, your garage speakers that we don’t care about or ancient amps or Peter.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Your problem is that you make no sense. Always talking about your garage speakers and ancient amps that nobody even cares about.

The OP asks for possible simple fix to his Denon AVR shutting down. I gave him the same example of what happened to my Denon shutting down and the quick fix. It didn’t require anything else other than some $20 fans from Amazon.

Others also offered the advice of keeping the volume safe.

What do you do? Talk about how crappy his speakers are and how everything is going to blow up.

Make fun of all the other speakers because your delusional brain thinks your garage DIY speakers are just worlds better than all the other speakers.

It is extremely simple. See if your brain understands this. He doesn’t want to spend thousands on new speakers or amps.

So just do what the REST OF US are saying - keep the volume safe and put some $20 fans atop his AVR.

No need to talk about your life story, your garage speakers that we don’t care about or ancient amps or Peter.
I think you probably knew I shared your feeling about TLSGuy's post style, but over the years I realized he's an extremely helpful member if those looking for help could ignore his style. In this case, I don't doubt the OP's ML speakers could perform very well depending on room acoustic/placement, use of subwoofers and room correction etc., but what TLSGuy's observations of the measured performance does in fact show there are better alternatives in the same price range.

He posted the FR and impedance curves, so we can all see that those speakers can be considered truly 4 ohm nominal, with dips to around 2 ohms. Your big B&Ws do have low dips and high phase angles too, but the ML speakers showed below 5 ohms over almost the whole main part of the audio band that music contents frequent full time! So, I have to agree TLSGuy's receiver buster seems almost appropriate, again, as long as we can ignore his brunt (or honest, undiplomatic;))approach, and the rest of his rhetoric, choice of words like "malpractice", incompetently designed etc., that are also highly subjective by nature..

One thing I would like to emphasized, as I typically had in the past, is the importance of the user's listening habit and distance. In this case, the OP mentioned volume of 71 ish, that's -9 for us who are more familiar with the relative scale. At such high volume level, using an entry level AVR (unlike your previous 3000 series that are consider midrange in the days) is really not the best for those big ML 60XTi that has ML recommended 20-400 W, and again rated impedance is 4 ohms.

Surely that means the X2700H can do 20 W into 4 ohms but...

By the way, when the speaker company rated their speakers 4 ohms and recommended 20-400 W, it may be reasonable to assume they meant 20-400 W into 4 ohms. If true (and I am not sure, someone should ask them), then if we even take the mid point, i.e. 200 W. I highly doubt even the flagship Denon AVRs can be rated 200 W 4 ohms without caveat, though they can certainly drive 4 ohm speakers all day long if used with music, and not test tones.:)

Lastly, I think speakers and amplifiers manufacturers could put people like you, I, TLSGuy out of business on such forums if they would get their act together and do a better job in their specifications, such that their potential buyers would have a much better understanding of the "power need", instead of the vague 20-400 W, with no caveats at all. But thank goodness they are not going to do anything that they think may hurt sales, so we can continue to have fun on forums.:D
 
Last edited:
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Hi everyone,

Thermal shutdown question. I have a Denon AVR-X2700H running a pair of Martin Login 60XTi's. I know it's a little low on power for these speakers but I can't afford a better amp currently. I like to crank it up when I am by myself, I have been around home and car audio my whole life and I am good about knowing where to run the volume, depending upon the type of music. But for some reason this amp just doesn't like more than 5-10 minutes at around 3/4s volume(68 - 71ish) on the volume control. The amp has 3-4" of top clearance and good flow front to back. Is it safe to add cooling like a fan and if so any good ideas? Or is adding cooling likely to cause damage or a waste of time.

Thank you in advance.
Bill
Read the manual- IIRC, it shows that their AVRs need about 8" above, front to back doesn't matter unless you use a fan to blow air in that direction. Hot air rises-it doesn't go sideways and closing the bottom path won't cause the hot air to be pulled in from the side- not enough 'lift'.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Read the manual- IIRC, it shows that their AVRs need about 8" above, front to back doesn't matter unless you use a fan to blow air in that direction. Hot air rises-it doesn't go sideways and closing the bottom path won't cause the hot air to be pulled in from the side- not enough 'lift'.
I agree with that. Good advice.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I think you probably knew I shared your feeling about TLSGuy's post style, but over the years I realized he's an extremely helpful member if those looking for help could ignore his style. In this case, I don't doubt the OP's ML speakers could perform very well depending on room acoustic/placement, use of subwoofers and room correction etc., but what TLSGuy's observations of the measured performance does in fact show there are better alternatives in the same price range.

He posted the FR and impedance curves, so we can all see that those speakers can be considered truly 4 ohm nominal, with dips to around 2 ohms. Your big B&Ws do have low dips and high phase angles too, but the ML speakers showed below 5 ohms over almost the whole main part of the audio band that music contents frequent full time! So, I have to agree TLSGuy's receiver buster seems almost appropriate, again, as long as we can ignore his brunt (or honest, undiplomatic;))approach, and the rest of his rhetoric, choice of words like "malpractice", incompetently designed etc., that are also highly subjective by nature..

One thing I would like to emphasized, as I typically had in the past, is the importance of the user's listening habit and distance. In this case, the OP mentioned volume of 71 ish, that's -9 for us who are more familiar with the relative scale. At such high volume level, using an entry level AVR (unlike your previous 3000 series that are consider midrange in the days) is really not the best for those big ML 60XTi that has ML recommended 20-400 W, and again rated impedance is 4 ohms.

Surely that means the X2700H can do 20 W into 4 ohms but...

By the way, when the speaker company rated their speakers 4 ohms and recommended 20-400 W, it may be reasonable to assume they meant 20-400 W into 4 ohms. If true (and I am not sure, someone should ask them), then if we even take the mid point, i.e. 200 W. I highly doubt even the flagship Denon AVRs can be rated 200 W 8ohms without caveat, though they can certainly drive 4 ohm speakers all day long if used with music, and not test tones.:)

Lastly, I think speakers and amplifiers manufacturers could put people like you, I, TLSGuy out of business on such forums if they would get their act together and do a better job in their specifications, such that their potential buyers would have a much better understanding of the "power need", instead of the vague 20-400 W, with no caveats at all. But thank goodness they are not going to do anything that they think may hurt sales, so we can continue to have fun on forums.:D
PENG I agree with every word of what you wrote. Those damned ignorant marketers without a technical bone in their bodies just "rule the roost" to the detriment of all.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Your problem is that you make no sense. Always talking about your garage speakers and ancient amps that nobody even cares about.

The OP asks for possible simple fix to his Denon AVR shutting down. I gave him the same example of what happened to my Denon shutting down and the quick fix. It didn’t require anything else other than some $20 fans from Amazon.

Others also offered the advice of keeping the volume safe.

What do you do? Talk about how crappy his speakers are and how everything is going to blow up.

Make fun of all the other speakers because your delusional brain thinks your garage DIY speakers are just worlds better than all the other speakers.

It is extremely simple. See if your brain understands this. He doesn’t want to spend thousands on new speakers or amps.

So just do what the REST OF US are saying - keep the volume safe and put some $20 fans atop his AVR.

No need to talk about your life story, your garage speakers that we don’t care about or ancient amps or Peter.
Read what PENG had to say below. I don't think there is any daylight between us. You know as well as I do, the people get carried away in the moment and turn up the volume. So, yes lowering the volume and increasing ventilation are all positive things to do. But volume restriction is not an ideal solution in my view, because of compliance.

And my speakers are not garage speakers as you call them. I researched and designed them with enormous care. The only speakers built in my workshop, which was not in the garage are my side surrounds. The others were all built in a commercial shop under my close supervision. The speakers for the inwall system were built with huge precision in a CNC shop. The rear TLS had rebuilt lines at the time the front three were designed, to take account of George Augspurger's TL model published in 2000 in the AES journal. George Augspurger was one of the great pioneers of audio and made huge contributions. He did me the great honor of asking me to preserve his TL model for all with his design software. I have and it has been downloaded by many.

My TLs sound excellent and deliver a natural deep bass quality not achievable with other alignments. I have had a passion for speaker design for over 70 years now. One thing I am certain of is that those ML speakers are an incompetent design, and my speaker are not incompetent designs. Measurement show it. I would NEVER put into use a speaker with the impedance curve of those MLs. Never!

Now let's move on to those ancient amps, which all sell on eBay far above their original price. In this you have insulted one of the greatest audio designers in the history of audio. Namely Peter Walker, who made massive contributions to audio, and someone I am proud to have called a dear friend. We both shared a profound distaste of marketers. He NEVER employed a single one!

In the early days of solid state amps they were blowing up wholesale, and taking speakers out with them. Then came to market the Quad 303, unconditionally stable under ALL loads. The BBC bought them by the truck load. They are so stable you can even parallel the speaker outputs without modification!
I would bet that most of those amps are still functioning and in regular use.

Then came the 405 and then the 405 II in a lot of iterations, as there were steady improvements over the years. The 606 and then the 909 were very powerful stable and extremely long lived amps. They may be old now relatively but can see off in audio quality most amps made today. The 909s are particularly sought after, and fetch very high prices on the used market. I feel really fortunate to own 11 of them.

Lastly Peter moved the goal posts in 1957 when he launched the QUAD ESL speaker at the London Audio fair. That was a landmark and the first really accurate speaker. His Quad ESL 63 launched in 1981 was a masterpiece and still a point of reference in reproduced sound. Lastly really good design is timeless.

You have a lot to learn.
 

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