There's a significant difference in volume output between two closely related Denon AVRs, and I cannot figure out why.

[Eppie]

Is it even reasonable to assume that the volume scales match power output precisely between various models? My X4800H is rated at 125W / channel into 8 ohms while the 2310ci it replaced is rated at 105W / channel into 8 ohms (at similar distortion levels) yet I find that I am higher on the volume scale for general listening than I was with the lower powered receiver. It gives the impression that the new receiver is not putting out as much power at the same volume setting but I know that there are so many other factors, especially given the difference in years in the designs.

If both receivers are distortion free at high volume and functioning normally, then I would not suspect any faults. Even if the dB levels measure differently at the same volume number that is not a sure indication that there is a problem. It could simply be differences in design. A true fault test would require a more detailed analysis of the electronics.

 

[TLS Guy]

Is it even reasonable to assume that the volume scales match power output precisely between various models? My X4800H is rated at 125W / channel into 8 ohms while the 2310ci it replaced is rated at 105W / channel into 8 ohms (at similar distortion levels) yet I find that I am higher on the volume scale for general listening than I was with the lower powered receiver. It gives the impression that the new receiver is not putting out as much power at the same volume setting but I know that there are so many other factors, especially given the difference in years in the designs.

If both receivers are distortion free at high volume and functioning normally, then I would not suspect any faults. Even if the dB levels measure differently at the same volume number that is not a sure indication that there is a problem. It could simply be differences in design. A true fault test would require a more detailed analysis of the electronics.

So we agree.

People just can not understand the db scale is only a relative scale in relationship to something else. That something else can be anything you want. The db scale is not an absolute scale and was never intended to be. The only purpose of the db scale on the receiver or AVP is to let you know how much you have increased or lowered the volume in relationship to power output. The other issue is that it a LOG scale and not a LINEAR one. With the standard of education today that is way beyond the average consumers understanding to the nations eternal shame.

 

[Trebdp83]

It is not completely unreasonable to assume that virtually identical units such as the X1400H and S730H would perform very similarly to each other with similar settings and source devices and signals. Should, or will the volume levels match perfectly when comparing sound at 75db? No. But, a very big difference such as has been claimed here assuming those claims are real and accurate, would raise an eyebrow. All bets are off if one receiver is receiving a two channel signal over an analog connection using Direct mode while the other is receiving a Dolby signal over HDMI and using Dolby Surround.

 

[privateeye]

There was not a word about source device or source material and no information about the audio codec. Was the source device connected to each receiver the same way?

As was mentioned, start with a factory reset and then compare the Default settings of each. Match any settings that aren’t the same after the reset and then test them in Direct mode before adjusting settings.

Use the same device with the same source material outputting the same signal to both receivers using the same connection. Use any meter you have available to you. There are apps. Then, post all of that information. There is no reason for anybody to keep throwing darts at this board while wearing a blindfold.

Virtually everything was the same, every setting on each AVR and source. There was zero discrepancies.

 

[privateeye]

Is it even reasonable to assume that the volume scales match power output precisely between various models? My X4800H is rated at 125W / channel into 8 ohms while the 2310ci it replaced is rated at 105W / channel into 8 ohms (at similar distortion levels) yet I find that I am higher on the volume scale for general listening than I was with the lower powered receiver. It gives the impression that the new receiver is not putting out as much power at the same volume setting but I know that there are so many other factors, especially given the difference in years in the designs.

If both receivers are distortion free at high volume and functioning normally, then I would not suspect any faults. Even if the dB levels measure differently at the same volume number that is not a sure indication that there is a problem. It could simply be differences in design. A true fault test would require a more detailed analysis of the electronics.

Thank you this helps. Are you seeing a significant difference as I am?

 

[Eppie]

Thank you this helps. Are you seeing a significant difference as I am?

I did not take any measurements, so any difference is perceived. I just noted that I was higher up on the dB scale when watching movies with the new AVR. The extra 20W is not really significant given that it takes double the power to achieve a 3dB gain in volume. Performance wise I can still achieve the volume levels that I desire. I don't have a large enough room or speakers to push the AVR to its limit but I want to have some extra headroom any way for dynamic passages.

I agree with TLS Guy, though. Even though your models are similar, that does not guarantee that the relative volume settings are identical. Pure Direct mode will give the best comparison as it bypasses digital processing, but what you really need is a way to measure power output given an identical signal level on both inputs. It's not so much a question of what the power output is at a setting of say 65, but what is the maximum power output that the units are capable of. While the AVRs can generate pink noise for speaker testing, there is no way of knowing if the level of pink noise is the same between different models. You can use pink noise to compare different channels on the same AVR, but it is not a fair comparison between different models.

To avoid damaging your speakers you would need a resistive load and a way to measure the maximum output power to see if it is within spec. That is beyond most people's capabilities. While there may be a significant difference in volume at the 55 to 75 range, I would not want to test things at max volume for fear of damaging the speakers. That's best left to a service technician.

 

[mtrycrafts]

What you really need to do if you are so concerned is get a test tone cd with 60Hz and some others, use a true RMS meter and measure 1.0V at the speaker terminal, then match the other receiver to measure 1.0V as well and then see the volume control difference.
Then you can play whatever material through both receivers without touching the volume controls you had at 1.0V for each setup.
Then you have a better comparison.

You also need to make sure there is no EQ of any kind in the receivers for the signal path, zero.

 

[privateeye]

What you really need to do if you are so concerned is get a test tone cd with 60Hz and some others, use a true RMS meter and measure 1.0V at the speaker terminal, then match the other receiver to measure 1.0V as well and then see the volume control difference.
Then you can play whatever material through both receivers without touching the volume controls you had at 1.0V for each setup.
Then you have a better comparison.

You also need to make sure there is no EQ of any kind in the receivers for the signal path, zero.

I reset both units yesterday and then measured pink noise at 75 dB using a phone app. The S730H hit 75 dB at volume 60, and the 1400X at volume 63. So, in this test, everything looks right. Tonight, I will run Audyssey again on the 1400X and see if it gives me better results than last time. Last time I hooked it up, I noticed the volume issue and it just didn't sound right. However, yesterday's volume test looked good, so the mystery continues.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I reset both units yesterday and then measured pink noise at 75 dB using a phone app. The S730H hit 75 dB at volume 60, and the 1400X at volume 63. So, in this test, everything looks right. Tonight, I will run Audyssey again on the 1400X and see if it gives me better results than last time. Last time I hooked it up, I noticed the volume issue and it just didn't sound right. However, yesterday's volume test looked good, so the mystery continues.

As soon as you use any EQ, the game is over, cannot be compared as it is unique.
Also of note is that phone app. Who calibrated it? Little things do add up to not being equals.

 

[lovinthehd]

I reset both units yesterday and then measured pink noise at 75 dB using a phone app. The S730H hit 75 dB at volume 60, and the 1400X at volume 63. So, in this test, everything looks right. Tonight, I will run Audyssey again on the 1400X and see if it gives me better results than last time. Last time I hooked it up, I noticed the volume issue and it just didn't sound right. However, yesterday's volume test looked good, so the mystery continues.

Might share all results of Audyssey/speaker setup with each avr.

ps Keep in mind each of those avrs has a different iteration of Audyssey, the S730 just as MultEQ, the X1400 has MultEQ XT.

 

[privateeye]

Might share all results of Audyssey/speaker setup with each avr.

ps Keep in mind each of those avrs has a different iteration of Audyssey, the S730 just as MultEQ, the X1400 has MultEQ XT.

I've just completed the calibration process, and the 1400x sounds significantly better this time around. I no longer have to crank up the volume, and everything appears to be as it should be. I'm not entirely sure what the issue was previously because the last time I used it and ran Audyssey, it sounded dreadful, and there were volume issues. Despite rerunning Audyssey multiple times, I consistently encountered the same awful results.

However, this time, things seem to be vastly different. In fact, I believe my system sounds better than it ever has before. I haven't taken any actual measurements, so my judgment thus far is solely based on what I am hearing.

One notable change I made was using an atypical microphone setup pattern, as demonstrated in part two of this link https://www.hometheatershack.com/threads/data-supporting-a-single-setup-mic-position-for-audyssey-or-dirac-live.118706/#replies

I also recently tried it on my S730H and achieved great results, and now, similarly, on the 1400x. I highly recommend giving it a try, especially if you have a MLP where your ear is below the seat back.

I really appreciate all of the help and advice everyone gave me.

 

[lovinthehd]

I've just completed the calibration process, and the 1400x sounds significantly better this time around. I no longer have to crank up the volume, and everything appears to be as it should be. I'm not entirely sure what the issue was previously because the last time I used it and ran Audyssey, it sounded dreadful, and there were volume issues. Despite rerunning Audyssey multiple times, I consistently encountered the same awful results.

However, this time, things seem to be vastly different. In fact, I believe my system sounds better than it ever has before. I haven't taken any actual measurements, so my judgment thus far is solely based on what I am hearing.

One notable change I made was using an atypical microphone setup pattern, as demonstrated in part two of this link https://www.hometheatershack.com/threads/data-supporting-a-single-setup-mic-position-for-audyssey-or-dirac-live.118706/#replies

I also recently tried it on my S730H and achieved great results, and now, similarly, on the 1400x. I highly recommend giving it a try, especially if you have a MLP where your ear is below the seat back.

I really appreciate all of the help and advice everyone gave me.

Personally I use a mic at my main seat for first position, then a circle around that about 1.5ft in radius for remaining 7 positions....and have the mic above the seat back (using a mic boom). Different Audyssey runs can make a difference....

 

[privateeye]

Personally I use a mic at my main seat for first position, then a circle around that about 1.5ft in radius for remaining 7 positions....and have the mic above the seat back (using a mic boom). Different Audyssey runs can make a difference....

I've literally run Audyssey at least 100 times over the years and have never been fully satisfied with the results until I started using this microphone pattern. Really seems to work well for this particular seating situation.

 

[lovinthehd]

I've literally run Audyssey at least 100 times over the years and have never been fully satisfied with the results until I started using this microphone pattern. Really seems to work well for this particular seating situation.

Have you heard of OCA's Audyssey One ? I haven't tried it yet but many are posting they like the results....

 

[privateeye]

Have you heard of OCA's Audyssey One ? I haven't tried it yet but many are posting they like the results....

This is the first I'm hearing of it. I found a video about it and I will watch it, thank you for the advice!

 

[PENG]

Is it even reasonable to assume that the volume scales match power output precisely between various models? My X4800H is rated at 125W / channel into 8 ohms while the 2310ci it replaced is rated at 105W / channel into 8 ohms (at similar distortion levels) yet I find that I am higher on the volume scale for general listening than I was with the lower powered receiver. It gives the impression that the new receiver is not putting out as much power at the same volume setting but I know that there are so many other factors, especially given the difference in years in the designs.

If both receivers are distortion free at high volume and functioning normally, then I would not suspect any faults. Even if the dB levels measure differently at the same volume number that is not a sure indication that there is a problem. It could simply be differences in design. A true fault test would require a more detailed analysis of the electronics.

If the units being compared are operated within their output limit, then at the same volume setting, they would output the same voltage if:

a) the gain for both AVRs are the same, for Denon, Marantz and Yamaha, that's typically about 29 dB.
b) the volume scale are the same, for D,M, it is -80 to +18, for Yamaha, it seems to be -80 to +16.5.

c) if a) and b) are not the same, but the models have Audyssey such as XT32, then if you run auto setup following instructions to the letter, then the units will be calibrated to output the same voltage at the same volume settings.

For example, after calibration, at volume setting = 0, you should get roughly 75 dB (could be a couple dB lower) at your mmp, and that would be the case whether you have the AVR-X3800H, SR8015, or AVR-X8500H.

So, unless you listen very loud, sitting far, and/or have low sensitivity speakers, at lower volume such as -20 to even -10, any such Denon or Marantz AVR will give you the same output at the same volume, using the same input signal and under the same conditions and settings.

For the AVR-2310CI specifically, it's a 15 year old model, so it is possible that what I stated above may not apply, but it may, depending on the internal gain structure of the specific model. Also, to get the same output you have ensure the settings between the units being compared are the same, if not sure, then reset both the factory default being comparing.