The Least Expensive, Truly Full-Range Loudspeakers?

Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Interesting. Thanks for the links.

As soon as you mentioned Casavant Freres, the name jogged my memory.
That same firm recently built a new concert organ in Washington, at the Kennedy Center.

New Rubenstein Organ in the Concert Hall

On that link is a brief video showing construction of the organ.
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
So the much bigger question here, to my mind, is why you would want speakers that can play linearly all the way down to 20Hz or lower in the first place.

I sense that Irishman might have fallen into the same trap of thought and intuition that afflicts so many fans of audio - namely that the "ultimate" goal would be to have each and every speaker playing the entire audible frequency range from one location. Believe me, at one point, I fell into that line of thinking, too, going so far as to make plans for using 5 or 7 subwoofers in addition to 4 dedicated LFE subwoofers so that each individual speaker could have a subwoofer placed beneath it that would act as the bass driver so that every single speaker could be run full range.

But here's the thing: what is it that we're actually trying to accomplish?

To my mind, what I want to be able to do is to sit in any seat in my theater. And from any seat in my theater, I want to be able to play a frequency sweep from below 20Hz all the way up to above 20 kHz. I would, of course, play this sweep at 85 dB SPL so that my hearing would be at its most linear. And what I would want to hear would be as even and uniform a sweep as possible.

In other words, if the signal in the recording is telling a speaker to play any given note at any given loudness, that is what I want to reach my ears. Naturally, as I move from seat to seat, certain speakers in a surround sound setup would be physically closer to me, and thus louder. But from the primary seat, every single speaker ought to sound equally loud, and perfectly even throughout the entire sweep. And then if I move to a different seat, I can expect that physically closer speakers will sound louder, but the sweeps from each indivdual speaker should still play evenly in loudness from the lowest note to the highest. To me, that is simply accuracy. The signal said play whatever given note at whatever loudness. That's what I want to hear. No rollercoaster of louder and quieter during the sweep. And no lack of uniformity from seat to seat.

So what actually happens if each and every speaker plays to below 20 Hz all on its own? You can try this for yourself. Create a bass sweep and play it through only one speaker at a time. You will discover that the bass sweep sounds like a rollercoaster and is not uniform from seat to seat.

The bottom line is that genuinely full range speakers are not the goal! It doesn't matter how they play in a wide open field or in an anechoic chamber. It matters how they sound in a real room. But it is not the speaker's fault! It is playing linearly and accurately. So what went wrong?

It comes down to the fact that bass sound waves are physically very long. 20 Hz, for example, has a wavelength of about 55 feet (that's sound travelling through air, room temperature, sea level air pressure, all that sort of thing. There are small changes that can happen due to temperature, air pressure, etc. But the wavelength of 20 Hz in air is roughly 55 feet).

So let's think about what happens in a room:

The speaker's driver starts to move outward from the speaker causing a change in pressure that propegates outward. Before the speaker driver even reaches its maximum travel outward, that sound wave has already reached a wall and reflected. As the speaker driver starts to move back inward, some of that original outward pressure is already reflecting back in the same direction, having travelled outward, reflected off of a wall, and is now moving back in the opposite direction. With sound travelling at about 1100 feet per second, the sound wave can move past your ear, reflect off the wall behind you, and return as a reflection before the speaker driver itself is even moving back into the cabinet! And this reflection just compounds and compounds as the speaker driver continues to move in and out while the sound waves continue to reflect back and forth and all around the boundaries of your room.

And THIS is why it is said that bass is "omnidirectional". Bass isn't really omnidirectional. If you were to suspend yourself and your speakers more than 55 feet above the ground, with no ceiling above you, and no walls around you at all, and all of the speakers at least 55 feet away from you, then even 20 Hz bass would be directional, and you really would want genuinely full range speakers at every position so that the bass would come from the correct direction! But NO ONE has that setup :p

So in any room, we are never hearing direct sound when it comes to bass. The wavelengths are too long, and we are only ever hearing reflected sound. That is why it seems to be omnidirectional - or directionless. But more importantly, that is why we do not actually want full range speakers! It is totally intuitive to want them: the signal is saying to play a given bass note from a given speaker - doesn't it make perfect sense to then have that speaker play that bass note? Make perfect intuitive sense. But the end goal is not about having the bass COME from the location called for in the recording, the end goal is about HEARING the bass that is called for in the recording. And your room won't let you do that.

So it doesn't matter how low your speakers can actually play themselves - at some point, due to the positioning of your speakers, your seats, and the dimensions of your room, the wavelength of a given bass frequency - and all frequencies below it - will exceed at least one of the dimensions of your room, or the distance between you and the speaker. And at that point, you will cease to hear direct sound and only hear reflected sound. And once you start hearing only reflected sound, it will sound like a rollercoaster, and it will sound different from seat to seat.

The solution is subwoofers. Multiple subwoofers. The goal is not to eliminate subwoofers from your system. Subwoofers just take a 2-way speaker and turn it into a 4-way speaker, or a 3-way speaker into a 4-way speaker, and so on. There is absolutely nothing less "pure" about having subwoofers play the lower frequencies. By that logic, the only type of speaker anyone should ever use would be a single driver. Otherwise, the sound is less "pure" because the tweeter is only playing a certain range of the audible frequencies while the mid-range and mid-bass drivers play other select ranges. We don't go around disconnecting our mid-bass drivers in our speakers just to make the mid-range and treble more "pure". So why do some of us have it in our heads that disconnecting our subwoofers should be some sort of lofty goal?

No, the solution is to use multiple subwoofers positioned carefully around the room so that those long bass wavelengths have so many interactions amongst themselves that they just even out and become uniform throughout the room. Bass sound waves emminating from any one location will always produce bass modes and peaks and dips that are non-uniform from seat to seat. But multiple subwoofers can create so much sound wave interference that it all just evens out and becomes uniform.

For all frequencies above the point where they become uneven at even one seating location, we want the individual speakers playing those. So some level of bass extension in the speakers is certainly necessary. But not full range.

I get it. I get the intuition. I get the appeal of the idea of having each speaker play the entire audible frequency range from its one location. If you super duper want to do that, why worry about having it all built into one cabinet? Put a subwoofer beneath each and every speaker and use whatever crossover you like best. It's no different than the crossover between your tweeter and the mid-range driver or the mid-range driver and the mid-bass driver(s). You can take any 2-way speaker and turn it into a 3-way by putting a subwoofer with a crossover underneath it. Simple. cost-effective. But it still should not be your goal. It doesn't work. Go ahead and play a bass sweep to hear it for yourself :)

- Rob H.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
And THIS is why it is said that bass is "omnidirectional". Bass isn't really omnidirectional. If you were to suspend yourself and your speakers more than 55 feet above the ground, with no ceiling above you, and no walls around you at all, and all of the speakers at least 55 feet away from you, then even 20 Hz bass would be directional, and you really would want genuinely full range speakers at every position so that the bass would come from the correct direction! But NO ONE has that setup :p
Hi Rob,

A couple notes. Bass is omnidirectional inasmuch as low frequencies literally radiate in all directions. You can see that in measurements like that of the PA-150 here (Extended Charts > Orientation Comparison):
Data-Bass
As Josh turns the subwoofer around relative to the mic, you see fluctuation of output as the distance of the acoustic transmitter to the mic changes, but you still see substantial output as the sound waves wrap around the cabinet to head back towards the microphone. You won't see that if you place a conventional speaker backwards relative to the mic and try to measure at 20kHz.

As far as being able to locate the sub, that has little to do with the room itself and everything to do with the way our ears work:
Sound localization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For frequencies below 800 Hz, the dimensions of the head (ear distance 21.5 cm, corresponding to an interaural time delay of 625 µs), are smaller than the half wavelength of the sound waves. So the auditory system can determine phase delays between both ears without confusion. Interaural level differences are very low in this frequency range, especially below about 200 Hz, so a precise evaluation of the input direction is nearly impossible on the basis of level differences alone. As the frequency drops below 80 Hz it becomes difficult or impossible to use either time difference or level difference to determine a sound's lateral source, because the phase difference between the ears becomes too small for a directional evaluation.
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Hi, Steve!

Thank you very kindly for the corrections and clarification! That is very good info.

You would agree that it only further eliminates the notion of "all audible frequencies must come from the same box and from each and every speaker location individually", yes?

:)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Well, he may choose to "compromise" the "best in-room bass and sound" for a pair of "full range" towers.

Even if the "best" means placing 5 subs around the room or doing a "crawl test" and placing 1 sub smack in the middle of the room between the front center and sofa, 1 sub behind the sofa, and 1 sub between the front L & R speakers, he may not be willing to do that. :D

It it all comes down to what you are willing to "compromise" - some bass response or the aesthetic. :D
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
True enough. And if you really do have genuinely full range towers, putting two subwoofers at the back of the room - essentially mirroring the Towers at the front of the room - can be extremely effective :)

What I see so often, though, is just a pair of Towers, or a pair of subwoofers, but with both subs at the front of the room. While that might look nice and symmetrical aesthetically, it just doesn't produce linear, uniform bass response at the seats.

So long as someone is aware of that, and they really are doing it for looks more than sound, and they're willing to sacrifice on the sound quality, then yeah, I'm always fine with people spending their own money however they'd like and getting the combination of looks and sound that pleases them most. But I made the inference that Irishman might be chasing after full range Towers because he's possibly under the impression that those would be the "ultimate" goal. As I say, I totally get that from an intuitive point of view. But it's exactly because intuition and reality don't line up in the case of deep bass coming from speakers within a room that I wrote out my whole reply :)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
A lot of variables for sure. In-room vs anechoic bass response? Aesthetically pleasing or ugly? 100lbs or 200lbs? :D
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
True enough. And if you really do have genuinely full range towers, putting two subwoofers at the back of the room - essentially mirroring the Towers at the front of the room - can be extremely effective :)

What I see so often, though, is just a pair of Towers, or a pair of subwoofers, but with both subs at the front of the room. While that might look nice and symmetrical aesthetically, it just doesn't produce linear, uniform bass response at the seats.

So long as someone is aware of that, and they really are doing it for looks more than sound, and they're willing to sacrifice on the sound quality, then yeah, I'm always fine with people spending their own money however they'd like and getting the combination of looks and sound that pleases them most. But I made the inference that Irishman might be chasing after full range Towers because he's possibly under the impression that those would be the "ultimate" goal. As I say, I totally get that from an intuitive point of view. But it's exactly because intuition and reality don't line up in the case of deep bass coming from speakers within a room that I wrote out my whole reply :)
This is a generalization that isn't always the case. As someone who has measured several rooms and systems now, I can say confidently that *it depends*. I have measured very smooth and extended bass response from just two full-range speakers in an advantageous room, but in my own room my pair of full-range speakers measures abysmally below 125Hz at my listening seat, and they sound like they measure. One carefully placed sub with equalization and running the towers full range smoothed the bass response nicely, and the sub is in the front of the room. I tried the sub in various locations, and I assumed I'd be ordering a second sub, but much to my surprise I measured great results with only one sub in the front, albeit in a non-obvious location.

I think generalizations and tuning systems by ear are poor strategies. I've become a big measurement fan. I think a bigger challenge a lot of people have is that they really don't have much flexibility in the placement of the mains or the subs. I declined to help a few friends who tell me they are inflexible about placements. Why measure if you can't tune?
 
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R

Ricardojoa

Audioholic
This is a generalization that isn't always the case. As someone who has measured several rooms and systems now, I can say confidently that *it depends*. I have measured very smooth and extended bass response from just two full-range speakers in an advantageous room, but in my own room my pair of full-range speakers measures abysmally below 125Hz at my listening seat, and they sound like they measure. One carefully placed sub with equalization and running the towers full range smoothed the bass response nicely, and the sub is in the front of the room. I tried the sub in various locations, and I assumed I'd be ordering a second sub, but much to my surprise I measured great results with only one sub in the front, albeit in a non-obvious location.

I think generalizations and tuning systems by ear are poor strategies. I've become a big measurement fan. I think a bigger challenge a lot of people have is that they really don't have much flexibility in the placement of the mains or the subs. I declined to help a few friends who tell me they are inflexible about placements. Why measure if you can't tune?
As fas as i understand firstreflect points is that bass should be even across differemt position and not just at seating.
Regarless, having multiple subs makes integration complex and it will never be cheapa, it requires proper equipments for sub main integration.

A simple full range speaker is a plug and play, forget about measurement and enjoy music.
But with a proper multi sub configuration, someone may find hard to go back to full range speakers alone.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
First, the OP wants nothing to do with subwoofers. He has his reasons.

So the question is, without dedicated subwoofers, how can he accomplish the best bass response from just 2 towers.

The key for me is Bass EQ. I don't like room EQ or EQ of the entire 20Hz-20kHz.

If the 2 towers are designed so that you could actively and independently Auto-EQ just the bass, I think you wouldn't even need a sub because you would have 2 real subwoofers (albeit smaller than many dedicated ID subs), one on each side of the room. It also allows for easy level-tuning of the bass; if you want more bass, just turn up the bass. If the bass seems too much, you turn it down.

Some music and movies are recorded too hot, while some are too anemic. Independently controlling the bass of the towers makes it easier.

IOW, a tower like the RBH SX-8300 is really just a big monitor atop a subwoofer (trio of 8" woofers). It is not a typical tower. It is literally a big monitor atop a subwoofer in disguise as a big tower. :D

So it is not just "like" having 2 subwoofers. No, it is literally having 2 real subwoofers. Again, the trio of 8" subwoofers occupy a smaller volume than a Rythmik, SVS, PSA, HSU, etc. But it is still quite potent (F3 25Hz anechoic passive). I say "passive", because when you add an external amp to actively bi-amp the built-in sub, the F3 could be closer to 20-22Hz.

Well, at least that's my understanding after briefly talking to chief speaker engineer/designer Shane Rich. :D
 
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Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
I just had an experience this week of why I built my speakers.

The concert of the Montreal Symphony Orchestra's concert to inaugurate the new four million dollar pipe organ is now running on Medici TV.
http://www.medici.tv/#!/kent-nagano-orchestre-symphonique-montreal-olivier-latry-bach-liszt-saint-saens
This organ is superb and unusual. From the console high in the organ, it is a mechanical tracker, that is to say the player operates the pipes entirely by mechanical action. There is also a movable console on stage that operates by electric action.



The organ was built by the renowned Canadian organ builder Casavant Freres.

Although this is streamed, the picture and audio are superb. This is the finest bass definition I have heard. I do hope this concert makes its way onto BD.

The performance of the Saint Saens organ symphony is the best I have heard. The opening work the famous J.S. Bach D minor toccata and Fugue really showed the precise articulation of this instrument.

There is no boom on this instrument, the bass is clean deep and highly defined. I could feel frequencies I could not hear. My body cavities vibrated frequently. The recording by the Canadian engineers is top rate.

You can rent this concert from Medici without a membership. This is an ultimate test of the bass definition of a speaker system. I just can't imagine any other speaker system pulling this off like I heard here this week.
Hi,
I had the opportunity to hear it at one of the inauguration concerts. As you said, it is an amazing instrument.

It is very powerful and I wouldn't be surprised that it could overcast the full symphony orchestra sound should a work require it.
 
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