The Insurance Issues with a Home Sell and Purchase in Florida

[cpp]

I grew up with Florida real estate mostly being a joke (like buying land in a swamp sort of thing for the naive). My maternal grandparents did evenutally retire there, but didn't experience particularly horrible weather events (but their location later did, but they'd passed by then). I couldn't stand the humidity down there myself, nor the limited (or rather simply dangerous) cycling when I did go there. Grandparents loved it, tho. Just not where I'd go in the first place. Sorry to hear how bad climate change is affecting the state....so just what is that doofus deSantis doing for y'all?

Well its been a bipartisan (RARE) move. A few bills were put into place,SB 2-A, SB 4-A , Senate Bill 2D ( May 22) Senate Bill 4D,
2D:

• $2 billion in reinsurance relief through the Reinsurance to Assist Policy (RAP) program to benefit policyholders over the next two years.
  • Requires insurance companies to file a supplemental rate filing once enrolled in the program to provide relief to policyholders.
• $150 million for the My Safe Florida Home Program to provide grants to Florida homeowners for hurricane retrofitting, making homes safer and more resistant to hurricane damage, which can result in premium discounts for those who participate in the program.
• Prohibiting insurance companies from denying coverage solely based on the age of a roof if the roof is less than 15 years old or if the roof is determined to have at least 5 years of useful life remaining.
• Requiring insurance companies to provide policyholders with a reasonable explanation if they deny or partially deny a claim and provides consumers with greater access to information during the claim adjustment process.
• Creating a new standard for application of attorney fee multipliers which have been liberally applied, resulting in increased costs to consumers.
• Limiting the assignment of attorney’s fees in property insurance cases, disincentivizing frivolous claims.

4D

• Requiring inspections for all condominiums and cooperative buildings that are three stories or higher.
  • For buildings within three miles of the coast, Phase 1 inspections must occur 25 years after initial occupancy and every 10 years after.
  • For all other buildings, Phase 1 inspections must occur 30 years after initial occupancy and every 10 years after.
  • If a Phase 1 inspection reveals substantial structural deterioration, a more intensive Phase 2 inspection is required.
• Requiring condominiums and cooperatives to conduct structural integrity reserve studies for buildings three stories or higher to ensure the funding necessary for future structural repairs is available and prohibits waiver of funding for certain structural reserves.
• Increasing transparency by requiring all structural inspections reports and reserve studies to be part of the associations’ official record and must be provided to potential purchasers of a unit.

Like anything in GOVT and with Insurance companies that are NOT headquartered in Fl , but represent homeowners, its going to take some time.

So DeathSantis has stepped up, actually both sides have. We will see if it works, at least its a small start but from what I read, it will be early 2024 before a lot fo these are in full force..

 

[cpp]

Did you enjoy the Noseeums?

I have been to Florida twice- it was Winter the first time and Fall the second, for a boat show and a boat manufacturer's dealer meeting. The second time, it was humid, rained every day but it was nice, although we were on Sanibel, so I guess the humidity was to be expected. Not a fan of stewing in my own juices.

We were in Sanibel, two weeks ago , helping a friend of my daughters find their summer home belongings. Sad, their concrete structure was washed clean through, their building is standing, but their doors and windows and belongings are totally gone. ITs like the home was still under construction or something. FYI:" millions of awesome shells though ( the best time to shell hunt is after a hurricane) . In Fla you learn to live with the humidity, sunscreen and bug stuff if you are on the gulf coast. FYI: I would rather face Noseeums than the black flies in Minnesota. I got eaten alive during a smallmouth fishing trip in the backwaters.

 

[highfigh]

New U.S. sea rise projections are lower but still forecast grim future for Florida

As attention and urgency ramp up around the world over the looming dangers of climate change, a major new federal report released on Tuesday offers a surprising forecast: It actually reduces the amount of sea level rise the world is expected to see as the Earth warms.

wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu

At least updated sea level raises aren't as grim as 5 years ago, but an 11" raise by 2040. Let's say you have a property in the keys or in south Florida, I'd recommend relocation asap, or you are risking not just your mortgage to be underwater but your entire house.

If Fla was in a dry climate, it might be attractive to me, from a distance. Not moving anywhere that has hurricanes, won't build on low ground, don't like being bitten by insect bastiges that are invisible and from what everyone has told me, some of the worst drivers on the planet.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

.... from what everyone has told me, some of the worst drivers on the planet.

Given the unusually high percentage of retirees in FL, I would imagine there would be some connection to drivers' skill sets.

 

[highfigh]

Well its been a bipartisan (RARE) move. A few bills were put into place,SB 2-A, SB 4-A , Senate Bill 2D ( May 22) Senate Bill 4D,
2D:

• $2 billion in reinsurance relief through the Reinsurance to Assist Policy (RAP) program to benefit policyholders over the next two years.
  • Requires insurance companies to file a supplemental rate filing once enrolled in the program to provide relief to policyholders.
• $150 million for the My Safe Florida Home Program to provide grants to Florida homeowners for hurricane retrofitting, making homes safer and more resistant to hurricane damage, which can result in premium discounts for those who participate in the program.
• Prohibiting insurance companies from denying coverage solely based on the age of a roof if the roof is less than 15 years old or if the roof is determined to have at least 5 years of useful life remaining.
• Requiring insurance companies to provide policyholders with a reasonable explanation if they deny or partially deny a claim and provides consumers with greater access to information during the claim adjustment process.
• Creating a new standard for application of attorney fee multipliers which have been liberally applied, resulting in increased costs to consumers.
• Limiting the assignment of attorney’s fees in property insurance cases, disincentivizing frivolous claims.

4D

• Requiring inspections for all condominiums and cooperative buildings that are three stories or higher.
  • For buildings within three miles of the coast, Phase 1 inspections must occur 25 years after initial occupancy and every 10 years after.
  • For all other buildings, Phase 1 inspections must occur 30 years after initial occupancy and every 10 years after.
  • If a Phase 1 inspection reveals substantial structural deterioration, a more intensive Phase 2 inspection is required.
• Requiring condominiums and cooperatives to conduct structural integrity reserve studies for buildings three stories or higher to ensure the funding necessary for future structural repairs is available and prohibits waiver of funding for certain structural reserves.
• Increasing transparency by requiring all structural inspections reports and reserve studies to be part of the associations’ official record and must be provided to potential purchasers of a unit.

Like anything in GOVT and with Insurance companies that are NOT headquartered in Fl , but represent homeowners, its going to take some time.

So DeathSantis has stepped up, actually both sides have. We will see if it works, at least its a small start but from what I read, it will be early 2024 before a lot fo these are in full force..

I can't see any reason to use Asphalt shingles, with or without fiberglass. Here, we have some strong wind, often over 50MPH. The house next door was re-roofed around 10 years ago and I could see how they were doing it- looked like a decent enough job, but I didn't see how they nailed the cap shingles on the roof hips and the ridge. The SW hip has lost about 5' of cap shingles, missing from the middle, and there's no reason for that unless they used the half without adhesive. Next roof will be metal, without question. It will also not be in MKE or Wisconsin again, without question.

IMO, the insurance industry should have been reigned in long ago- they're now far too powerful with the ability to deny coverage simply because they have changed their mind. I understand why they might not want to insure against certain events like riot, war, etc but they need to make it more clear that policies have changed- not just in the fine print most people won't read. Lawyers write the details and it's often the subtle differences that are missed.

They need to be a bit more reasonable and in places like FL, they need to be more strict about codes.

 

[highfigh]

Given the unusually high percentage of retirees in FL, I would imagine there would be some connection to drivers' skill sets.

Absolutely, but I don't think they're the only problem and have thought for a long time that remedial driver training should start at 50. I'm 65- I see young drivers who are barely out of driver's ed who really should know that what they do is illegal and dangerous, but that doesn't stop them. OTOH, MKE's driver's ed no longer requires a road test. DOH!

 

[highfigh]

We were in Sanibel, two weeks ago , helping a friend of my daughters find their summer home belongings. Sad, their concrete structure was washed clean through, their building is standing, but their doors and windows and belongings are totally gone. ITs like the home was still under construction or something. FYI:" millions of awesome shells though ( the best time to shell hunt is after a hurricane) . In Fla you learn to live with the humidity, sunscreen and bug stuff if you are on the gulf coast. FYI: I would rather face Noseeums than the black flies in Minnesota. I got eaten alive during a smallmouth fishing trip in the backwaters.

I'm fortunate to live less than a mile from the Milwaukee River, which is now clean enough that it supports Salmon, Trout, Walleye, Sturgeon, lots of Smallies and other species- I even caught an 18" Muskie a few years ago. The water is clear and odor-free, unless we have had a storm and then, all kinds of stuff washes into the water but it clears after a short time. When I was a kid, nobody really wanted to go into the water because it was so polluted.

I thought the Mosquito was Minnesota's state bird.

 

[cpp]

Given the unusually high percentage of retirees in FL, I would imagine there would be some connection to drivers' skill sets.

The actually or close to native Floridians have been trying to get those over 70 re-tested, but the state legislature, killed that, nothing its infringing on their rights.

But !, 21.78 million people actually own property here, but people need to understand fla has had an avg of 94.7 million tourists that visited Florida before covid. Its not our fault everyone above our state line wanted to move here and drive here.. And then you have the tourist, oh yes the people that don't care about anything but coming and leaving and spending that money.. Just in Orlando in 2021, produces annual visitor statistics and they estimated there were 59.3 million visitors to Orlando. The current metro area population of Orlando in 2023 is 2,071,000, a 1.62% increase from 2022, guess where all of these people are going. FYI, the people buying our home are from Pleasantville NY., why, hey are a young couple and love our home and love the beach. Come on down.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

The actually or close to native Floridians have been trying to get those over 70 re-tested, but the state legislature, killed that, nothing its infringing on their rights.

Well, you get what you picked...

As far as tourists, I'm not going to say a crazy thing such as tourists don't drive, after all each time I visited FL in past I did rent a car Tourists vs permanent residents - who are worse drivers? Can't say. I know what despite being the butt of many jokes, I think my state - NJ drivers are vastly better than NYC drivers (there are exceptions of course).

 

[highfigh]

The actually or close to native Floridians have been trying to get those over 70 re-tested, but the state legislature, killed that, nothing its infringing on their rights.

So, letting the elderly drive without a clue or attention span isn't an infringement on the rights of others, to live?

Were these legislators older than 70?

 

[cpp]

Well, you get what you picked...

As far as tourists, I'm not going to say a crazy thing such as tourists don't drive, after all each time I visited FL in past I did rent a car Tourists vs permanent residents - who are worse drivers? Can't say. I know what despite being the butt of many jokes, I think my state - NJ drivers are vastly better than NYC drivers (there are exceptions of course).

Well hate to tell ya "
There are relatively few states that have retesting requirements for license renewal that are aimed strictly at drivers in older age groups. Only two states, Illinois and New Hampshire require a road test (at age 75). A road test may be administered at age 75 in the District of Columbia, but it is not mandatory. Although 10 states require only drivers who have reached a certain age to have a vision test before license renewal, there is little consistency with respect to the age threshold at which the requirement applies. Two states begin vision testing at age 40, one at age 50, and the others at anywhere from age 64 to age 80.

Other types of age-based conditions involve states that either prohibit mail renewal by elderly drivers (five states) or make older drivers renew their licenses at more frequent intervals than other drivers (15 states).

But four states, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, and Nevada, have laws explicitly stating that age alone may not be considered justification for reexamination."



It looks like its not a thing in any state, but this is side tracking my original thread and that is
The Insurance Issues with a Home Sell and Purchase in Florida

I would like to stick to topic, maybe a new thread on DL regs in state for older drivers or lack of.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Well hate to tell ya "
There are relatively few states that have retesting requirements for license renewal that are aimed strictly at drivers in older age groups. Only two states, Illinois and New Hampshire require a road test (at age 75). A road test may be administered at age 75 in the District of Columbia, but it is not mandatory. Although 10 states require only drivers who have reached a certain age to have a vision test before license renewal, there is little consistency with respect to the age threshold at which the requirement applies. Two states begin vision testing at age 40, one at age 50, and the others at anywhere from age 64 to age 80.

Other types of age-based conditions involve states that either prohibit mail renewal by elderly drivers (five states) or make older drivers renew their licenses at more frequent intervals than other drivers (15 states).

But four states, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, and Nevada, have laws explicitly stating that age alone may not be considered justification for reexamination."



It looks like its not a thing in any state.

I wasn't suggesting re-examination, I merely suggested a correlation between FL's "worst" drivers and higher than other states' percent of retirees. Political pokes aside, How to address this? I have no suggestions, not that anyone in their right mind would ever listen to me

 

[Mr._Clark]

This house in Mexico Beach FL got quite a bit of media attention after it survived hurricane Michael in 2018. It did have some damage, but nothing compared to the other houses in the area.

>>>State code in the wake of Hurricane Andrew in 1992 required that houses have to be built to withstand 120 mph winds. However, the Sand Palace was built to withstand about 240 to 250 mph winds, Lackey said.

The walls are made of poured concrete on top of 40-foot pilings. Rebar is all through the walls. Steel cables go from the girders above the pilings through the roof and continue down the other side of the back wall, they said. And there’s more.<<<

This home on Mexico Beach survived Hurricane Michael. That's no coincidence. | CNN

Mexico Beach, Florida, was flattened by Hurricane Michael last week. But amid the incredible destruction, one home stood high on stilts above the wreckage, appearing largely untouched and gleaming in the sun.

www.cnn.com

Here's an article with more details about the construction. The increased cost was actually not outrageous.

>>>If we might ask, how much more did the design changes cost and what impact was there on schedule?

Lackey/King: The cost premium turned out to be 15% to 20% on a per square foot basis over the cost of an equivalent, existing building in the same area. We evaluated many options and, if the extra cost was reasonable and we thought it represented an upgrade, we went with it, while always keeping an eye on the overall cost. We actually found that some elements, such as the ICF walls, did not cost that much more at all because the extra material costs are offset by lower labor costs. The ICF also had the side benefit of better insulation and resulted in lower insurance costs. We calculated that the on-going cost savings would offset the original extra costs in six to eight years. There was no noticeable impact on the project schedule. The cost of the lot is also the same regardless of what is built.<<<

STRUCTURE magazine | The Story of a Survivor

www.structuremag.org

 

[TLS Guy]

This house in Mexico Beach FL got quite a bit of media attention after it survived hurricane Michael in 2018. It did have some damage, but nothing compared to the other houses in the area.

>>>State code in the wake of Hurricane Andrew in 1992 required that houses have to be built to withstand 120 mph winds. However, the Sand Palace was built to withstand about 240 to 250 mph winds, Lackey said.

The walls are made of poured concrete on top of 40-foot pilings. Rebar is all through the walls. Steel cables go from the girders above the pilings through the roof and continue down the other side of the back wall, they said. And there’s more.<<<

This home on Mexico Beach survived Hurricane Michael. That's no coincidence. | CNN

Mexico Beach, Florida, was flattened by Hurricane Michael last week. But amid the incredible destruction, one home stood high on stilts above the wreckage, appearing largely untouched and gleaming in the sun.

www.cnn.com

Here's an article with more details about the construction. The increased cost was actually not outrageous.

>>>If we might ask, how much more did the design changes cost and what impact was there on schedule?

Lackey/King: The cost premium turned out to be 15% to 20% on a per square foot basis over the cost of an equivalent, existing building in the same area. We evaluated many options and, if the extra cost was reasonable and we thought it represented an upgrade, we went with it, while always keeping an eye on the overall cost. We actually found that some elements, such as the ICF walls, did not cost that much more at all because the extra material costs are offset by lower labor costs. The ICF also had the side benefit of better insulation and resulted in lower insurance costs. We calculated that the on-going cost savings would offset the original extra costs in six to eight years. There was no noticeable impact on the project schedule. The cost of the lot is also the same regardless of what is built.<<<

STRUCTURE magazine | The Story of a Survivor

www.structuremag.org

Absolutely correct. ICF is very comparable to frame construction in cost, but it makes a far better home. It gives you 6" steel reinforced concrete walls, better sound insulation and R factor. What is not to like about that. Builders are reluctant, as frame is all they know. I have words unfit for print about home builders though.
That Florida home has a more robust roof installation than ours though.

Wherever you live now it is time to stop building flimsy wood frame houses, which data shows can splinter in winds as low as 80 MPH if sustained. They are no longer fit for purpose.

 

[cpp]

Absolutely correct. ICF is very comparable to frame construction in cost, but it makes a far better home. It gives you 6" steel reinforced concrete walls, better sound insulation and R factor. What is not to like about that. Builders are reluctant, as frame is all they know. I have words unfit for print about home builders though.
That Florida home has a more robust roof installation than ours though.

Wherever you live now it is time to stop building flimsy wood frame houses, which data shows can splinter in winds as low as 80 MPH if sustained. They are no longer fit for purpose.

""Wherever you live now it is time to stop building flimsy wood frame houses, " That's true BUT !. the average homeowner cannot afford the cost to build a concrete poured block home with a tile roof. Not to mention the millions or 10's of millions plus of wood frame homes throughout the US that already exist, Its a huge dilemma in the country of what to do with older homes built before codes were established to address high winds. You can't just force a homeowner to tear his home down and rebuild it to just obtain insurance

 

[TLS Guy]

""Wherever you live now it is time to stop building flimsy wood frame houses, " That's true BUT !. the average homeowner cannot afford the cost to build a concrete poured block home with a tile roof. Not to mention the millions or 10's of millions plus of wood frame homes throughout the US that already exist, Its a huge dilemma in the country of what to do with older homes built before codes were established to address high winds. You can't just force a homeowner to tear his home down and rebuild it to just obtain insurance

I never said to tear down their homes, although the continually rising wind speeds, will demolish increasing numbers for them. The other question is what line the insurance companies will take, and rating policies might have an impact.

I think the one thing that will lead to a lot of tear downs is the move to electric vehicles. This will make homes without off street parking a very bad proposition, and will put them at a huge disadvantage. This is already an issue in London, as the ULEZ zone spreads to the whole greater London area.

 

[highfigh]

Absolutely correct. ICF is very comparable to frame construction in cost, but it makes a far better home. It gives you 6" steel reinforced concrete walls, better sound insulation and R factor. What is not to like about that. Builders are reluctant, as frame is all they know. I have words unfit for print about home builders though.
That Florida home has a more robust roof installation than ours though.

Wherever you live now it is time to stop building flimsy wood frame houses, which data shows can splinter in winds as low as 80 MPH if sustained. They are no longer fit for purpose.

Care to show the ICF panels you're referring to? I haven't seen steel reinforced ICF.

WRT home builders- where else can Schmendrick get a job that requires almost no prior experience?

I have probably mentioned it beforebut in '05, I was working for an AV integration contractor and we had to go to a house in a very nice area that needed equipment installed for the showing that started later in the evening. It wasn't the builder per se, but since it was one of their subs, it applies because they were the ones who would have signed off when the subs were working and when they finished working their magic. The AV was just a mess. Some of it wasn't done to code, some of it was just stupid and as i t turned out, it was the security company who ran all of the AV cables. Then, we were working alongside the painters and they missed parts of the crown moulding, didn't cover the stairs when they painted the balusters and generally made a mess in a house that was almost finished. Drywall taping where the trayed ceiling met the walls....it was far less than impressive.

The next morning, the director of the company came into the office and asked what I thought of the house- I told him and then, he said that it had sold for $1.4 Million, only a couple of hours after the showing began. I swear, some people have more money than brains.

 

[cpp]

I never said to tear down their homes, although the continually rising wind speeds, will demolish increasing numbers for them. The other question is what line the insurance companies will take, and rating policies might have an impact.

I think the one thing that will lead to a lot of tear downs is the move to electric vehicles. This will make homes without off street parking a very bad proposition, and will put them at a huge disadvantage. This is already an issue in London, as the ULEZ zone spreads to the whole greater London area.

A home damaged by wind, will require a Tear Down, if the insurance companies demand it. But wind is not the only issue, its the flooding and that occurs inland as well, and throughout this country, the mid west for example. Also with tear downs, if it ever comes to that, comes expense for someone, be it rebuild subsidization by the goverment, which means taxes, or, people just leave their homes for someone else to deal with it, like the city or county or state or Fed Govt..
Until the state and federal goverment rains in the insurance companies, each rates home areas differently and the homes differently. I just witnessed that last week. .

 

[cpp]

Care to show the ICF panels you're referring to? I haven't seen steel reinforced ICF.

WRT home builders- where else can Schmendrick get a job that requires almost no prior experience?

I have probably mentioned it beforebut in '05, I was working for an AV integration contractor and we had to go to a house in a very nice area that needed equipment installed for the showing that started later in the evening. It wasn't the builder per se, but since it was one of their subs, it applies because they were the ones who would have signed off when the subs were working and when they finished working their magic. The AV was just a mess. Some of it wasn't done to code, some of it was just stupid and as i t turned out, it was the security company who ran all of the AV cables. Then, we were working alongside the painters and they missed parts of the crown moulding, didn't cover the stairs when they painted the balusters and generally made a mess in a house that was almost finished. Drywall taping where the trayed ceiling met the walls....it was far less than impressive.

The next morning, the director of the company came into the office and asked what I thought of the house- I told him and then, he said that it had sold for $1.4 Million, only a couple of hours after the showing began. I swear, some people have more money than brains.

Look up Helix Micro Rebar reinforcement as an example. is a tiny one-inch (25-mm) twisted steel rod that's mixed with concrete prior to being poured into its final destination . Another source https://www.icfmag.com/2010/10/understanding-steel-schedules/

 

[Swerd]

Concrete building materials and masonry construction in general came about in Europe because lumber and trees were scarce. In the most of the USA and Canada that's not the case. Trees are still abundant in many locations. Florida, as well as the rest of the Gulf coast, are the exceptions, because of frequent hurricane exposure.

In the USA, the home construction industries and home construction finance, all play an outsized role in our overall economic performance. It has long shaped the US federal tax laws (until Trump's ham-handed effort to line his own pockets). These groups clearly have enough money and political clout to maintain their status as it is now. Home insurance probably plays a role in this as well, but I know little about insurance. Suffice to say that insurance companies also have enough money to employ armies of lawyers & political lobbyists.

Because of past hurricane damage, Florida has led the nation in developing building standards & codes that result in roofs resisting high wind damage. Despite that, Florida has long been politically owned by the real estate development industry. There are abundant examples of overdeveloped coastlines with high rise condos throughout the state. As an extreme example of future problems, remind yourself of the 2021 collapse of the Champlain Towers in North Miami Beach. Again, I'm not sure how much the insurance industry has played a role in this, but the post by @cpp is eye opening. It's an unregulated mess, and I feel sympathy with anyone who is trying to sell property in Florida that's anywhere near a coastline.