Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
AKA naiive.
All you see are insolvable problems and any efforts to solve them are just waste of money and time, so better to do nothing at all. When was the spirit that got Americans on the moon replaced with a "no can do" attitude?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
It strikes me as odd that people are telling those of us in the US what we should do about guns when they don't understand that the people carrying out these acts in this country ARE NOT the same as the people in their own/home countries. They can't comprehend having people who do these things living among them, in their neighborhoods, down the street or a short distance away. Criminals travel, often when they're armed. Should we not be able to defend ourselves, or should we just lay down and give up with the possibility of being shot, anyway?

Do we need AR/AK-style weapons and 100 round magazines? I don't think so and if someone does want them, they should be vetted extremely well. If they're banned or made harder to buy, I think that's fine- it's not going well with them but the ones out there aren't going away. Neither are bad people.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
All you see are insolvable problems and any efforts to solve them are just waste of money and time, so better to do nothing at all. When was the spirit that got Americans on the moon replaced with a "no can do" attitude?
Keep reading- I added to that post.

I agree 100% about the spirit, but not about your perception of what I'm saying- the number of bad people is small, compared with the number of good people who do nothing.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Would it surprise you that a 2013 study by the CDC estimated that there were between 500,000 and 3 million defensive uses of firearms in the year 2008 alone? Compare that to around 12,000 homicides using firearms in the same year. Exact figures for defensive uses will always be hard to determine, but on the low end people are defending themselves at around 42 times the rate than they are committing homicide.

I was unable to find statistics on defensive uses of large dogs :D
That sounds more like a guess than a study but you're right- who can know how many times a gun was used defensively, unless the person ALWAYS calls the Police and ALWAYS tells them it was used defensively. CCP trainers tell people that if they do use their gun, the first thing to say when calling 911 is "Defensive Gun Use" and that the gun should be out of the gum owner's hand when the officers arrive. They also say that the incident will likely cost them $100K in legal defense/fees and their insurance rates will go up, too.

WRT dog bites- if hospitals collected data about criminals who were bitten, we might have an idea about the number but I have watched shows on TV where the criminal(s) were chased and they seemed more afraid of the dogs than bullets, especially when Police dogs were involved. It's one of the reasons I think tiny pocket dogs are totally useless- if someone wants a dog, they should get a dog, not a design accessory.
 
M

Midwesthonky

Audioholic General
You're wrong about online and gun show sales if you were stating that checking the buyer isn't needed for all buyers- if a dealer is involved in any way, the application MUST be filled out and submitted. Technically, even personal sales from one state to another are supposed to go through someone with an FFL, whether an actual dealer, collector or gunsmith. Buying from an online dealer definitely requires going through an FFL and if someone selling guns at a show is a dealer, collector or anyone who is required to have an FFL, the application MUST be filled out and submitted. If the person with the FFL is found to have sold guns and didn't do it legally, they stand to lose their FFL, be fined and possibly sent to prison.
A large number of gun show "sellers" go as private individuals so filling out the form is not required. There is also a large amount of gun show "sellers" that are in effect acting as dealers due to the volume of business they do but have not actually obtained an FFL. They travel the gun show circuit and utilize the private seller "loophole" that doesn't require a background check. There are loopholes and they are being exploited. I know of only 1 prosecution in the last few years for a guy that was in effect a gun dealer/broker and making significant money doing so but never got his FFL. He claimed he didn't need an FFL as it was all private sales. But he was prosecuted as the volume he was running clearly showed it was a business. My point is there are loopholes right now that are being exploited.

I would be fine with requiring a federal background check for all gun sales period. With today's wireless technology, it's very feasible to accomplish. It would reduce the instances of people taking advantage of the private seller loophole. It would also allow for a database to be searched making it easier to ID straw buyers. If 'Bob Smith' is buying 10 guns a month for 6 months in a row, that would easily show up in a database search of the background check and raise enough red flags to justify an investigation.

I acknowledge your position in AK and AR style weapons. I don't own an AK and don't see a need. I can see the popularity of the AR style rifle platform. It's a modular design that allows a person to easily build it to fit your needs and wants. Want lightweight for carrying? No problem. Want it to shoot prairie dogs at 200 yards on your ranch in Wyoming or South Dakota? No problem. Plinking with your buddies at 300 yards? No problem. The .223 / 5.56 ammo is very reasonably priced making it a favorite for target shooters and those that do rifle competitions. Just like the .308 caliber often seen in the AR10 platform is very popular with long range target shooters. Easy to add a bipod and a scope and you have a gun that can easily take out varmits at 500 yards. The adjustable stocks are greatly loved because the length of pull (distance from trigger to end of shoulder stock) can be adjusted in seconds making it easy to adjust from an adult male, to a female shooter, or to a tween that is learning to shoot but still growing.

Ballistics wise, a .30-06 hunting round and a .308 round out of a AR10 have almost the same performance. But a .30-06 out of a bolt action rifle kicks harder than a .308 out of an AR10. So which would I prefer shooting with? The AR10. If I'm hunting in crap weather conditions, I want the reliability of a bolt-action rifle.

I also understand the appeal of the AR platforms (AR15 & AR10) to people who have served in the military as the gun is very familiar to them after training on it and carrying one for their enlistment period.

I can tell you I wished I had an AR15 (.223 caliber) when my FIL and I were trying to take out that rabid skunk at his place in the countryside in the Dakotas. The .22's just weren't accurate enough at the distance nor powerful enough at the distance to drop it. It moved on away into the corn field, but I'd rather have dropped it since it was rabid.

I wouldn't mind a ban on magazines greater than 30 round capacity. I don't see a need for a 100 round magazine. I've seen them, but don't see a need. That's a lot of ammo to burn through in a short period of time. Even in an unlimited class for a target competition, that's excessive. Same for magazines for pistols. I know some guys love the extra capacity for shooting competitions, but at what point does it get ridiculous? I'm not a fan of 10 rounds magazines for a pistol, but I have never wanted nor needed more than a 20 round magazine for target or competition with pistols.
 
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B

bigkrazy155

Audioholic
A large number of gun show "sellers" go as private individuals so filling out the form is not required. There is also a large amount of gun show "sellers" that are in effect acting as dealers due to the volume of business they do but have not actually obtained an FFL. They travel the gun show circuit and utilize the private seller "loophole" that doesn't require a background check. There are loopholes and they are being exploited. I know of only 1 prosecution in the last few years for a guy that was in effect a gun dealer/broker and making significant money doing so but never got his FFL. He claimed he didn't need an FFL as it was all private sales. But he was prosecuted as the volume he was running clearly showed it was a business. My point is there are loopholes right now that are being exploited.
Most of what you are referring to is not a loophole in the law but a gap in enforcement. If the current laws regulating firearm sales regarding FFL registration were enforced, the background check gap almost completely disappears. Then we can talk about truly private sales (e.g. people just wanted to sell one of their firearms to get rid of it or people liquidating estates).
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I have written that there's one whole question on the application about mental Illness and that it would be possible for someone to lie about it, which would likely result in them being approved unless they're known for their mental illness.

Background checks won't happen until politicians stop basing every comment and bill on what will get them re-elected. Screw the NRA. We need a way to stop mentally ill and those on the edge from getting guns. I have also posted that I don't think AR and AK type weapons are needed, that 'need' and 'want' have been interchanged and that in reality, almost nobody actually needs a gun.

I wrote a fairly long response to your comments about online and gun show sales but it was addressed by bigkrazy155. However, there are other ways for guns to be sold- straw buyers (people who buy guns legally, for the purpose of selling them privately to someone who can't buy legally),thieves who steal guns and sell them privately and this is a big problem because gangs have a network for selling items around US regions and states and the parts market. People can buy the parts to assemble a gun in person or online, but the receiver is the one part that needs a license or application.

As I posted, a lot of people have lost respect for life, laws and for other people. Until this changes for the better, we won't see an improvement.
Well, you are a perfect example of what I am talking about (and that is a good thing, IMHO).
Obviously, you are not pro gun control; yet you see thing that could be changedd that would be a positive step in intelligent handling of the gun buying process.

I am with the protesters that say "do something!" It doesn't have to be the perfect panacea or all-encompassing, but repeatedly the obvious things that even pro-gun constituents agree on as being reasonable are being blocked in congress. I don't know how much of it is direct payments to congressmen vs. the threat of heavy $upport for an opponent vs convincing their most loyal followers that any concession is a major step on the "slippery slope" of giving the government the right to confiscate anyone's firearms on a whim!

But it would be reassuring to see even the single most obvious and uncontested law enacted just to know that NRA doesn't hold total sway over congress.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Well, you are a perfect example of what I am talking about (and that is a good thing, IMHO).
Obviously, you are not pro gun control; yet you see thing that could be changedd that would be a positive step in intelligent handling of the gun buying process.

I am with the protesters that say "do something!" It doesn't have to be the perfect panacea or all-encompassing, but repeatedly the obvious things that even pro-gun constituents agree on as being reasonable are being blocked in congress. I don't know how much of it is direct payments to congressmen vs. the threat of heavy $upport for an opponent vs convincing their most loyal followers that any concession is a major step on the "slippery slope" of giving the government the right to confiscate anyone's firearms on a whim!

But it would be reassuring to see even the single most obvious and uncontested law enacted just to know that NRA doesn't hold total sway over congress.
I think we need some controls on guns, just as we need controls for who drives, flies and is involved in activities that can be dangerous to others if they can't control whatever they're using, including their mind. Doing something without looking at the core of the problem will do more harm than good and this is a perfect example of emotions taking over when logic should be used.

We have a problem. What is the first step in solving a problem? DEFINE THE PROBLEM. The problem isn't "people are being killed", that's the result of the problem. The problem is "people are killing other people for reasons that are generally insignificant". Are they trying to make a statement because they feel inferior? I don't want people like that owning guns, especially anything with a large magazine. They just happen to be using guns that are easy to acquire. I don't have a problem if 'Gun Control' means getting guns out of the hands of criminals and crazy people but I don't like any talk of confiscation, mandatory buy-back (how would the country afford to buy 350 million guns without adding a lot of debt without making people pay for it?) and making it impossible for law-abiding people to defend themselves. If we find the reasons and find solutions, we'll be/have a better society. The idea that 'an armed society is a polite society' assumes a certain level of logic- people who don't care if the rest are armed are the problem. It's similar, in a way, to the idea that 'Locks are for honest people'- if someone really wants to get in, they'll find a way.

That doesn't mean I want people to be able to walk into a gun store and leave with a cart full of guns five minutes later- think of it this way- a kid meets someone at school and says they want to go to that kid's house after school. What will a good parent do? Start asking questions- Who is this?, Who are their parents?, where do they live?.....". The more we know about applicants, the safer we'll be. The question usually asked when someone doesn't want to answer questions is "What are you hiding?".

To your point about the NRA controlling Congress- we need to make Congress work for us and if that means recalling them and no longer voting for them, so be it. We shouldn't give a rat's ass about the members of Congress when they complain about ANYTHING in their lives, including the loss of their seat unless it's some kind of human tragedy that would apply to anyone else. Oh, they lost their Senate or House seat? Wahhh!

I want ANYONE who has a gun to be trained in how to use it. Period. I don't want people spraying lead all over because I don't want to be hit when someone lost it over a parking space or something equally stupid, like a family argument, losing a bet, looked at the shooter in a way that they felt was too aggressive ('mean-mugging'). None of that needs to result in a shooting and people who resort to gunfire over something so trivial shouldn't have guns.

Speaking of being able to hit the target- in case you haven't heard, two of the shooting victims in Dayton were shot by errant Police bullets.

When I was growing up in the '60s, we didn't have the crimes that are currently plaguing the nation. It was nice- we could leave the house and garage unlocked, we could go anywhere in the city without worrying about being mugged or killed, we could leave things in our yard and if they were found somewhere else, one of our neighbors would return them. We had an older couple who had house keys for half of the block- if we came home from school and the house was locked, we could get the key (if we were old enough) or hang out at their house and they ALWAYS had milk & cookies for us and coffee for the adults who came to pick up their kids. As kids, we could go anywhere without our parents assuming the worst- we could explore our 'world' which, typically, was about one square mile, but it was full of different places to see. As teenagers, we could hitch hike and actually get to our destination.

People were better, back then.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
A large number of gun show "sellers" go as private individuals so filling out the form is not required. There is also a large amount of gun show "sellers" that are in effect acting as dealers due to the volume of business they do but have not actually obtained an FFL. They travel the gun show circuit and utilize the private seller "loophole" that doesn't require a background check. There are loopholes and they are being exploited. I know of only 1 prosecution in the last few years for a guy that was in effect a gun dealer/broker and making significant money doing so but never got his FFL. He claimed he didn't need an FFL as it was all private sales. But he was prosecuted as the volume he was running clearly showed it was a business. My point is there are loopholes right now that are being exploited.

I would be fine with requiring a federal background check for all gun sales period. With today's wireless technology, it's very feasible to accomplish. It would reduce the instances of people taking advantage of the private seller loophole. It would also allow for a database to be searched making it easier to ID straw buyers. If 'Bob Smith' is buying 10 guns a month for 6 months in a row, that would easily show up in a database search of the background check and raise enough red flags to justify an investigation.

I acknowledge your position in AK and AR style weapons. I don't own an AK and don't see a need. I can see the popularity of the AR style rifle platform. It's a modular design that allows a person to easily build it to fit your needs and wants. Want lightweight for carrying? No problem. Want it to shoot prairie dogs at 200 yards on your ranch in Wyoming or South Dakota? No problem. Plinking with your buddies at 300 yards? No problem. The .223 / 5.56 ammo is very reasonably priced making it a favorite for target shooters and those that do rifle competitions. Just like the .308 caliber often seen in the AR10 platform is very popular with long range target shooters. Easy to add a bipod and a scope and you have a gun that can easily take out varmits at 500 yards. The adjustable stocks are greatly loved because the length of pull (distance from trigger to end of shoulder stock) can be adjusted in seconds making it easy to adjust from an adult male, to a female shooter, or to a tween that is learning to shoot but still growing.

Ballistics wise, a .30-06 hunting round and a .308 round out of a AR10 have almost the same performance. But a .30-06 out of a bolt action rifle kicks harder than a .308 out of an AR10. So which would I prefer shooting with? The AR10. If I'm hunting in crap weather conditions, I want the reliability of a bolt-action rifle.

I also understand the appeal of the AR platforms (AR15 & AR10) to people who have served in the military as the gun is very familiar to them after training on it and carrying one for their enlistment period.

I can tell you I wished I had an AR15 (.223 caliber) when my FIL and I were trying to take out that rabid skunk at his place in the countryside in the Dakotas. The .22's just weren't accurate enough at the distance nor powerful enough at the distance to drop it. It moved on away into the corn field, but I'd rather have dropped it since it was rabid.

I wouldn't mind a ban on magazines greater than 30 round capacity. I don't see a need for a 100 round magazine. I've seen them, but don't see a need. That's a lot of ammo to burn through in a short period of time. Even in an unlimited class for a target competition, that's excessive. Same for magazines for pistols. I know some guys love the extra capacity for shooting competitions, but at what point does it get ridiculous? I'm not a fan of 10 rounds magazines for a pistol, but I have never wanted nor needed more than a 20 round magazine for target or competition with pistols.
I doubt that it's legal for someone with an FFL to sell at a gun show as a private individual. The organizers would/should be required to check out their vendors and an easy way to make that happen is by requiring FFL only. Sure, we have people who claim to be sovereign citizens- good for them. They should stop making it easy to kill people and many of the sovereign citizens are involved with some far-right organization, often not recognizing the legitimacy of any government.

For pistols, some politicians have said it's unnecessary to have more than five bullets. OK, what if the other guy has six, or one misfires? What if there's more than one attacker/home invader? Competition isn't a factor when they design guns with 17+1 rounds- that's for protection; 30-100 is for assault or military/police. The whole reason the Police have AR-style weapons is because they were so badly out-gunned during the Norco, CA shootout after a bank robbery.
 
B

bigkrazy155

Audioholic
I wrote a fairly long response to your comments about online and gun show sales but it was addressed by bigkrazy155. However, there are other ways for guns to be sold- straw buyers (people who buy guns legally, for the purpose of selling them privately to someone who can't buy legally)
Quick point of clarification. This also is already illegal.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I doubt that it's legal for someone with an FFL to sell at a gun show as a private individual. The organizers would/should be required to check out their vendors and an easy way to make that happen is by requiring FFL only. Sure, we have people who claim to be sovereign citizens- good for them. They should stop making it easy to kill people and many of the sovereign citizens are involved with some far-right organization, often not recognizing the legitimacy of any government.

For pistols, some politicians have said it's unnecessary to have more than five bullets. OK, what if the other guy has six, or one misfires? What if there's more than one attacker/home invader? Competition isn't a factor when they design guns with 17+1 rounds- that's for protection; 30-100 is for assault or military/police. The whole reason the Police have AR-style weapons is because they were so badly out-gunned during the Norco, CA shootout after a bank robbery.
I find the whole "sovereign citizen" movement absolutely bonkers. There are actually some up here in Canada, but they don't seem to be quite as brazen as people like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff
If that had happened here, they'd all be in jail, all firearms confiscated and banned from owning any for the rest of their lives.

As for magazine capacity, you could what-if that to absurd extremes.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
All you see are insolvable problems and any efforts to solve them are just waste of money and time, so better to do nothing at all. When was the spirit that got Americans on the moon replaced with a "no can do" attitude?
When liberal/socialist/democrats in congress impede every attempt to move forward simply to spite the resident.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
When liberal/socialist/democrats in congress impede every attempt to move forward simply to spite the resident.
The GOP did the same thing to Obama. I really don't know how your government manages to do anything.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I find the whole "sovereign citizen" movement absolutely bonkers. There are actually some up here in Canada, but they don't seem to be quite as brazen as people like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff
If that had happened here, they'd all be in jail, all firearms confiscated and banned from owning any for the rest of their lives.

As for magazine capacity, you could what-if that to absurd extremes.
I don't ever want to be so paranoid that I think everyone is out to get me.

Maybe the Police should carry a box of Burger King crowns to give people when they act all high & mighty.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Quick point of clarification. This also is already illegal.
And people still do it, which reinforces my point that telling everyone to turn in their guns won't work.

It's like telling a fire to stop burning.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
The GOP did the same thing to Obama. I really don't know how your government manages to do anything.
Obama got his foot in the door when he began his campaign by saying "I want to fix Health Care and Social Security", then added "...through wealth redistribution" about two weeks later. When I heard his initial comments, I was all ears and when he added the rest, he lost me and a lot of others. He f&cked health care and the American people and he was far from being a unifier.

WRT your last comment- Congress and the House used to be a lot more congenial/respectful of each other and now, it's like a couple who are in the middle of a divorce, arguing about who gets what.
 
B

bigkrazy155

Audioholic
And people still do it, which reinforces my point that telling everyone to turn in their guns won't work.
Agreed! The laws on the books are by and large adequate, but not properly enforced.
 

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