The Great Cable Debate, A moot argument?

[Shinerman]

<font color='#000000'>Is the highend vs. lowend cable debate a moot point?

I saw this on another site. &nbsp; Why are highend cables even an issue when the wiring in your speakers and various components is generally generic speaker wire? &nbsp;Let's look at the trail of sound. &nbsp; It begins in your souce and travels along generic wire. &nbsp;It then leaves the source and travels along anywhere from cheap to expensive wire/cable. &nbsp;But, once it reaches the binding posts on the back of your speakers, &nbsp;it then runs along generic wire again to the drivers. &nbsp;

So, if the final run of wire before your drivers is generic, what difference does it make what you have before that? &nbsp;

Granted some components and speakers have custom highend wiring, but for the most part lower end through upper mid level components and speakers have generic wire of various guages in them. &nbsp;Even some high end speakers have generic wire in them. &nbsp;

So again, why does the argument even exist? &nbsp; Is my thinking completely wrong about this? &nbsp;

Shinerman</font>

 

[zipper]

<font color='#000000'>I don't know what to think. I auditioned some Monitor Audio Gold Refs a bit ago &amp; the salesman then showed me some speaker cables that had a large gauge &amp; smaller gauge wire within one cable. He was convinced that they improved the sound of a system vs. a 12-gauge zip. He tried to describe to me how the higher freqs would tend to ride the outside wires &amp; yadda,yadda,yadda. They were in the area of $100 for an 8 ft. cable.
&nbsp;If I could get one of these clowns to let me take a pair of these things home for some comparison I'd love to do it. But isn't it funny that you can get a 30 day return policy for equipment,but crack open that package of cables &amp;...SORRY! You bought 'em buddy!
&nbsp;Quality electronics will almost sell themselves.You don't like it? Bring it back.We know someone else will buy it. Even BOSE!!!! &nbsp;But with cables it's like they're worried you'll blow all the conductive properties out of 'em &amp; they'll be unusable to anyone else. I think the fact that most cables are non-returnable items answers most of my questions about the legitimacy of the &quot;performance improving&quot; claims of these overpriced &quot;oils&quot;.</font>

 

[ED27]

<font color='#000000'>I don't exactly agree on the return policy on cables.  All of the high-end companies package their stuff so that it can be re-package as if it were new (Monster, MIT, Audioquest, Straightwire, DH Labs, Kimber).  Most of the shops that I've dealt with in DC area are just as open to refunding a cable purchase as they do with electronic equipment.  Even online companies that sell cable have return policies for cable (Audio Advisor is one of the most popular).  As long as it's in mint condition, most shops won't mind taking it back.

As far as the cables debate goes.....it will always be there because you have so many passionate people who support both sides of the arguement.  Have you noticed that a lot of equipment manufacturers will not recommend a cable for you to use and defer you to one of their dealers for advice?  In the end, it all comes down to money.  We need people to buy high end wire because it keeps stores profitable and in business.  Some of our favorite places to shop may not be where they are if not for profitable products such as cables.  Where would we go for the real stuff if these dealers went out of business?  One of my favorite places to go does almost $1,000,000 in Monster Cable sales each year across their chain of stores.</font>

 

[zipper]

<font color='#000000'>I'd like to clarify the fact that I was speaking solely about speaker cables. I have returned interconnects before w/o incident. I guess it also depends on what outlet you're dealing with.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>I think this is the equivalent of the abortion debate for AV lovers. I think it's crazy to spend a ridiculous amount of money on speaker wire as well. I don't claim to have a golden ear, but I can't hear a difference. I admit I've never done rigorous A-B tests in my room on my current system I've better things to do like enjoy the music which sounds fine with 12 zip cord 17cents/ft. The A-B blinded tests have been done in a limited fashion. The results showed no discrenable difference between cables. The study was rather limited as it was single blind not double blind and had a very small sample population. However none of the expensive cable makers seem in a hurry to do such testing or at least publish their results. Either they did the tests a didn't like the answer or have chosen not to bother. I'd love to see a few of them get in a Coke vs. Pepsi style test war. It would be very entertaining.</font>

 

[Shinerman]

<font color='#000000'>Hey guys, thanks for the responses so far. &nbsp; I do understand the concept and the financial incentives behind cable but I guess I am trying to understand the &quot;technical&quot; need for them. &nbsp;Apart from sales, hype, looks, etc. &nbsp;

What do you guys think about the argument I made earlier. &nbsp;If you have generic wire/cable at each end of the sound path, then what difference does it make what you have in between? &nbsp;You still end with generic wire/cable.

The whole cable debate just seems pointless to me, scientifically. &nbsp;


Shinerman</font>

 

[zipper]

<font color='#000000'>Shinerman,

&nbsp;For 6 to 12&quot; runs(like inside the speaker) I don't think there are any issues. But I could see where, when making 20 to 40' runs,there could be concerns about signal degradation or interference. But simply using heavier gauge wire &amp; due caution in placing those runs should eliminate most of those issues.
&nbsp;Look, if I had the money to piss away on a $100,000 system I probably wouldn't bat an eye at the idea of spending another $1000 on cables. But I don't,so I do.</font>

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

<font color='#000000'>Let's get to first principles here:

The design of any audio gear, let alone cables, is purely an engineering problem.

Engineering is based on science.

Science tells us that the only meaningful parameters affecting cable performance at audio frequencies are inductance [l], capacitance [c] and resistance [r]. The length and gauge (thickness) of the wire are the main things that account for differences in those three parameters. Exotic materials like silver conductors and Teflon insulation (dielectric), or the shape of the cable's cross section have no audible effect at audio frequencies.

In practical terms, any reasonably well-made set of RCA interconnects of normal lenghth for domestic use is low enough in l, c, and r to function properly, i.e., to have no audible effect (and minimal measurable effect) on an audio signal. Same for plain ol'  copper zip cord speaker wire from about 16 ga. on up. If you're doing long runs, all you need is fatter wire, like Zipper says.

Skin effect (often cited by vendors) is a real phenomenon but just barely begins to play a role at the very highest audio frequencies, if any. For most of us over 30, those highest frequencies are out of range anyway (I'm 50 and feel lucky that I can still hear up to 15kHz). In any case, even the most acute human hearing is not maximally sensitive at those very high frequencies above 10kHz or so and the small differences (a small fraction of a dB) between cables having reasonably low l, c, and r is unlikely to be audible. Skin effect is only a real consideration in the design of cables that carry radio frequencies (i.e., transmission lines for antennas) and other very high frequency signals.

Everything else is B.S. as far as audio goes. This is not to say that other paramaters affecting cable design do not exist for applications such as RF transmission or high speed data transmission, but just that they are not a concern at audio frequencies.

Some very expensive cables do indeed sound &quot;different&quot; (but not necessarily better) because they are high in l, c, or r and cause frequency response anomalies. In other words, they muck up the sound by functioning as a non-adjustable tone control! Specifically, many of them roll off the high frequencies. Why anyone would want to do so for all program sources, all the time, is beyond me, but you can do the same thing with a  $0.50 or so resistor wired in series at your speaker terminals.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Shineman;

I suggest reviewing some of the cable articles we have written as they should address many of your questions/concerns regarding cables.

Audioholics Cable Articles</font>

 

[Shinerman]

<font color='#000000'>Thanks for the info. &nbsp;I understand the aruguments on each side of the cable debate. &nbsp; I have always felt that cables don't make a difference, at least not an audible difference. &nbsp;Are there differences? &nbsp;Sure. &nbsp;But, can we hear them, I don't think so. &nbsp;

However, what I am really looking for is an answer to whether all those arguments for both sides are even relevant.

Let's assume the cable makers are right. &nbsp;Cables do make a diff. &nbsp;They improve sound. &nbsp;How does all that magic the cables are creating continue to exist once the signal passes the binding post on the back of the speaker and runs through generic wire up to the drivers? &nbsp;To me, the generic wire at the end of the run is a weak link. &nbsp; If cable really did make a difference, would we not see high end cables running from within a component all the way to the connectors on each driver. &nbsp; &nbsp;To me, if they don't then who cares what's in between.

Shinerman</font>

 

[ED27]

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Shinerman : <font color='#000000'>Thanks for the info.  I understand the aruguments on each side of the cable debate.   I have always felt that cables don't make a difference, at least not an audible difference.  Are there differences?  Sure.  But, can we hear them, I don't think so.  

However, what I am really looking for is an answer to whether all those arguments for both sides are even relevant.

Let's assume the cable makers are right.  Cables do make a diff.  They improve sound.  How does all that magic the cables are creating continue to exist once the signal passes the binding post on the back of the speaker and runs through generic wire up to the drivers?  To me, the generic wire at the end of the run is a weak link.   If cable really did make a difference, would we not see high end cables running from within a component all the way to the connectors on each driver.    To me, if they don't then who cares what's in between.

Shinerman</font>

<font color='#000000'>Going with the assumption that cables do make a difference, a cable manufacturer will argue that providing the best signal possible from point A to B is the goal. &nbsp;They will argue that the best cables will not &quot;improve&quot; the sound but will provide the best path possible for music to flow. &nbsp;Therefore, the signal arriving at the speaker, amp, preamp, etc. will be as pure as possible.

It's a vicious cycle.....people who contribute to this forum will always lean toward the scientific side of cable performance so the arguement is a moot point. &nbsp;Other forums will lean toward the psychoacoustic-side and not ackowledge certain scientific truths. &nbsp;As a result, the arguement will always exist.</font>