The best sounding 5.1 AV preprocessor is...?

[fbonzo]

Okay, in trying not to bankrupt myself, I've decided that I can fairly easily live without the (admittedly pleasant) wonders of 7.1 sound. And, once I've admitted that, I find that I can afford a whole panoply of hitherto unapproachably expensive product families that I could previously only drool over: Meridian, Theta, Arcam, and Krell being the top few on my list.

So here are my questions:
1. Which of the following SOUND the best (particularly in two or 2.1 channel)?
2. Which of the following WORK the best, fewest glitches and gotchas; basically do what you expect them to do--and well?
3. Which of the following will LAST the longest (this will be the core of a set of major purchases for me and I like to keep my gear a LONG time)?
4. Are there any special features, for good or ill, that you know personally to be the case for any of these?

Meridian 561/562/565 (whatever) [$800]
Krell HTS 5.1 [$500]
Krell Showcase [$700]
Theta Casablanca (1) [$600]
Theta Casanova [$600]
Arcam AV8 [$900]
Arcam AV700 [$500]

The prices [in brackets] are prices I've seen these items sell for recently (August '09) on ebay or Audiogon and are just there to give you an idea of what kind of price points I'm looking at. Of course, like most folks, I love a bargain and would like to find one of these puppies for $100, but I don't anticipate that happening. Likewise, I'm just not in the market for a $3k unit--no matter how great it is (and even if it is $15k retail). Again, I'm mostly looking for the two-channel sound from these; I expect more-than-adequate home theater from all of these (I hook my vid sources directly to my displays and projectors) and, though all the groovy new audio codecs and protocols are nice (and they are; I'm not being facetious), once again, I can definitely live without them. If you think I'm leaving out any obvious choices, feel free to add them and comment.

BTW, my main speakers are (usually) some kind of Magneplanar. I'm using MG 12s right now, but I've got some others, too. I'm in the process of purchasing a good Maggie center, and I've got all sorts of rear-channel options, from KEF references to small Maggies. I've also got several subs, and several amps (I'll probably end up with a 5-channel used Proceed or Aragon, though--mostly using old Van Alstyne-modded Dynacos and/or Integra receiver amp sections at the moment). Oppo DVD source, and lots of others, too. Oh, and I'd really like to hook up my old record player (a 30-year-old top-of-the-line Denon w/a collection of arms and cartridges--all MM at the moment, but I'm considering getting a low-med output MC again), but that will probably require an outboard processor for this setup.

I look forward to reading your comments and opinions and advice.

Cheers,
fbonzo

P.S. One final btw--if I could have my druthers, I'd love to have a tube-based processor, perhaps designed along the lines of the Audio Research SP1-3a (yeah, I go back that far in this world ). I offer that tidbit in case you're trying to figure what sort of sound coloration I find least objectionable (ALL electronics cause SOME coloration).

 

[bandphan]

Just look for a onkyo 885 and you will get more than your looking for at about the same price.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Okay, in trying not to bankrupt myself, I've decided that I can fairly easily live without the (admittedly pleasant) wonders of 7.1 sound. And, once I've admitted that, I find that I can afford a whole panoply of hitherto unapproachably expensive product families that I could previously only drool over: Meridian, Theta, Arcam, and Krell being the top few on my list.

So here are my questions:
1. Which of the following SOUND the best (particularly in two or 2.1 channel)?
2. Which of the following WORK the best, fewest glitches and gotchas; basically do what you expect them to do--and well?
3. Which of the following will LAST the longest (this will be the core of a set of major purchases for me and I like to keep my gear a LONG time)?
4. Are there any special features, for good or ill, that you know personally to be the case for any of these?

Meridian 561/562/565 (whatever) [$800]
Krell HTS 5.1 [$500]
Krell Showcase [$700]
Theta Casablanca (1) [$600]
Theta Casanova [$600]
Arcam AV8 [$900]
Arcam AV700 [$500]

The prices [in brackets] are prices I've seen these items sell for recently (August '09) on ebay or Audiogon and are just there to give you an idea of what kind of price points I'm looking at. Of course, like most folks, I love a bargain and would like to find one of these puppies for $100, but I don't anticipate that happening. Likewise, I'm just not in the market for a $3k unit--no matter how great it is (and even if it is $15k retail). Again, I'm mostly looking for the two-channel sound from these; I expect more-than-adequate home theater from all of these (I hook my vid sources directly to my displays and projectors) and, though all the groovy new audio codecs and protocols are nice (and they are; I'm not being facetious), once again, I can definitely live without them. If you think I'm leaving out any obvious choices, feel free to add them and comment.

BTW, my main speakers are (usually) some kind of Magneplanar. I'm using MG 12s right now, but I've got some others, too. I'm in the process of purchasing a good Maggie center, and I've got all sorts of rear-channel options, from KEF references to small Maggies. I've also got several subs, and several amps (I'll probably end up with a 5-channel used Proceed or Aragon, though--mostly using old Van Alstyne-modded Dynacos and/or Integra receiver amp sections at the moment). Oppo DVD source, and lots of others, too. Oh, and I'd really like to hook up my old record player (a 30-year-old top-of-the-line Denon w/a collection of arms and cartridges--all MM at the moment, but I'm considering getting a low-med output MC again), but that will probably require an outboard processor for this setup.

I look forward to reading your comments and opinions and advice.

Cheers,
fbonzo

P.S. One final btw--if I could have my druthers, I'd love to have a tube-based processor, perhaps designed along the lines of the Audio Research SP1-3a (yeah, I go back that far in this world ). I offer that tidbit in case you're trying to figure what sort of sound coloration I find least objectionable (ALL electronics cause SOME coloration).

Well, I can safely say that Krell is having issues with their amps catching fire, so I would wonder about their other products?

But, there is no reason why any of the listed products would be different sonically. As to your other questions, it is too difficult to gather all the right answers unless one has tested them all extensively for some time period to get an idea of longevity, etc
One suggestion is that don't try to keep processors for a long time. Things change all the time, new processing, etc.

 

[Seth=L]

Just look for a onkyo 885 and you will get more than your looking for at about the same price.

It's hard to give Onkyo an A+ for reliability when their preamp/processor runs really hot because of a video processing chip. I would imagine that would set them back in the life expectancy department, which is unfortunate because I otherwise agree with the recommendation.

It will meet the sound requirements and probably exceed that of the older "audesseyless" processors that the OP is looking at.

I could be wrong, it may last a lifetime.

 

[valvesnvinylfan]

Not sure if you've ever looked at Anthem, but they make great processors with all the latest quality features as well. More than capable sonically and fairly easy to use to boot.

 

[Seth=L]

Not sure if you've ever looked at Anthem, but they make great processors with all the latest quality features as well. More than capable sonically and fairly easy to use to boot.

I think OP has a pretty clear budget area that he/she would like to stick with.

 

[fbonzo]

Thanks, but I disagree

Just look for a onkyo 885 and you will get more than your looking for at about the same price.

Thanks a lot for the recommendation, bandphan, but I (perhaps not so humbly) would beg to differ.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think the Onkyo stuff is a KILLER deal for what you get. In fact, I'm listening to an Integra 7.4 system right now and--as I mentioned in the original posting--I might even end up using the power amp section of an Integra receiver as my final amp section (I've got three of them of varying vintages). I'm not an audio snob; I don't have to have any particular brands. However, the Integra (read Onkyo) preamp section just does not at all come up to the level--sonically--of the prepro brands I mentioned in my original post (nor does it equal the Anthem, but I'll respond to that in another note). So, as good a deal as the Onkyo is, my ears can tell a distinct difference--specifically, a slightly harsher, thinner, less realistic reproduction than any of those I mentioned.

OTOH, if I was looking only for a home theater setup, I give double thumbs up to the Onkyo.

Again, thanks for your advice.

 

[fbonzo]

On Fire! Yowzers! Thanks for the reply, but I do have budget constraints.

Well, I can safely say that Krell is having issues with their amps catching fire, so I would wonder about their other products?

But, there is no reason why any of the listed products would be different sonically. As to your other questions, it is too difficult to gather all the right answers unless one has tested them all extensively for some time period to get an idea of longevity, etc
One suggestion is that don't try to keep processors for a long time. Things change all the time, new processing, etc.

Wow...on fire, eh? Wonder if that's a problem with the prepros, too.

Thanks for your note (and warning ), mtrycrafts. However, I'll have to respectfully disagree with you about there being no sonic difference between all these prepros. I'm afraid my brain tells me different . I think I hear differences (kind of like hearing voices, right? ) So, I guess I'm looking for advice from folks as deluded as me .

Also, the point of my post is that I'm perfectly happy with good HT decoding of several years ago--with a simple 5.1 system. Sure, I can hear the difference between a 9.1 Blu-Ray HTS system and a Dolby IIx 5.1 system--there're more sound sources. But that's not what flips my lid. I like listening to music and--to me--the quality of the sound from the front channels can, in the best cases, sometimes come close to fooling me into thinking that I'm actually listening to a live performance. And that's why I'm looking for uber-quality audio and not all the latest codecs.

And, just one more point. I drive a 26-year-old car. I've been married once to the same person for 31 years. I don't see any reason to change unless I've got a really good reason. (I am a little worried about the lack of airbags in my MB, I have to admit). Just the kind of guy I am. (Oh, yeah, and I don't have pockets deep enough to support any thing like changing out gear everytime there's a new protocol.)

Again, thanks for you post.

 

[fbonzo]

Thanks--Onkyo's are good, but I'll have to disagree about how good

It's hard to give Onkyo an A+ for reliability when their preamp/processor runs really hot because of a video processing chip. I would imagine that would set them back in the life expectancy department, which is unfortunate because I otherwise agree with the recommendation.

It will meet the sound requirements and probably exceed that of the older "audesseyless" processors that the OP is looking at.

I could be wrong, it may last a lifetime.

Thanks, Seth-L, for your thoughts.

As I've mentioned in my reply to bandphan, I've got three Integras (I've actually had about 5 Onkyos & Integras) and I think they're a great line. However--again, as I've noted elsewhere--I'd have to respectfully disagree about their sonic quality, particularly in the front-end. When comparing them to top (and right next to top) level gear.

Also, sadly, I'd have to point out that my personal experience is a bit spotty regarding their long-term reliability. Now, I admit that when I say "long-term" I mean LONG-term. I'm still using some electronics that I bought in the mid 70's that I've had NO trouble with and that STILL matches the quality of anything I've heard today (up to the $5k+ range). And I also have some speakers from the 70's (KEFs, Advents, EPIs, and Magnepans) that will give any current gear even remotely in their (inflation-adjusted) price ranges a run for their money. But I've had two different Integra/Onkyo units crap out on me within two years of purchase. Not good, I'd have to say.

And, regarding the audessey feature, it's a nifty one for surround sound effects, but--as I guess I didn't make clear enough in my original post--I'm really interested in getting the best two-channel (or 2.1) reproduction that I can possibly afford.

Again, thanks much for your comment.

 

[fbonzo]

Good Point, but I've found Anthems to be too expensive

Not sure if you've ever looked at Anthem, but they make great processors with all the latest quality features as well. More than capable sonically and fairly easy to use to boot.

Thanks for the suggestion, valvesvinylfan.

I would definitely have added Anthem to my list, except they seem to be holding their value too well and are therefore out of my price range. Which of their 5.1 prepro systems do you recommend in the sub-$600 used price range? I've heard the Statement and it's excellent, but I've not seen it in this range yet.

Cheers.

 

[jostenmeat]

Thanks a lot for the recommendation, bandphan, but I (perhaps not so humbly) would beg to differ.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think the Onkyo stuff is a KILLER deal for what you get. In fact, I'm listening to an Integra 7.4 system right now and--as I mentioned in the original posting--I might even end up using the power amp section of an Integra receiver as my final amp section (I've got three of them of varying vintages). I'm not an audio snob; I don't have to have any particular brands. However, the Integra (read Onkyo) preamp section just does not at all come up to the level--sonically--of the prepro brands I mentioned in my original post (nor does it equal the Anthem, but I'll respond to that in another note). So, as good a deal as the Onkyo is, my ears can tell a distinct difference--specifically, a slightly harsher, thinner, less realistic reproduction than any of those I mentioned.

OTOH, if I was looking only for a home theater setup, I give double thumbs up to the Onkyo.

Again, thanks for your advice.

hello fbonzo. Firstly, I'd like to address a particular terminology: 2 channel. When you say 2 ch, you really mean analog section, right? For you can still playback 2ch with digital connections.

interestingly, some extremely picky audiophiles have found the Integras to sound very good with the digital inputs, but slightly lacking comparatively with the analog connections. Others just think they sound great both ways.

anyhoo. One thing I'd like to bring up as another possibility to mull over is the 2ch prepro with HT bypass (that works when off, so as not to imbue its own signature), with unity gain. Just add it in-line with HT pre/receiver of choice?

 

[jostenmeat]

Pre/pro's with HT bypass

Ok, I just found this, read that it's $600 as msrp.
http://www.parasound.com/nc/2100.php

another option, with tubes, is the Rogue Perseus, roughly 1k on used market I think.
http://www.rogueaudio.com/Products_Perseus.htm

another, mccormack, for roughly same price
http://www.mccormackaudio.com/map1.html

ok, I found this list to peruse, although I'm sure many are way past budget

# Abrahamsen Audio PA-1
# Abrahamsen Audio V3.0 Abrahamsen Audio v3.0
# Adcom GFP 750 Adcom GFP 750
# Advantage S2 Advantage S2
# Arcam Alpha 9C Arcam Alpha 9C
# Arcam FMJ C30 Arcam FMJ C30
# Arcam FMJ C31 Arcam FMJ c31
# Atoll PR300 Atoll PR300
# Audio Analogue Bellini Audio Analogue Bellini
# Audio Analogue Maestro Stereo Line Preamplifier Audio Analogue Maestro Stereo Line Preamplifier
# Audio Research SP16L Audio Research SP16L
# Ayre K-5xe Ayre K-5xe
# bel canto PRe1 bel canto PRe1
# Cambridge Audio Azur 840E Cambridge Audio Azur 840E
# Cary Audio cpa 1 Cary Audio CPA 1
# Cary Audio SLP-2002 Cary Audio SLP-2002
# Cary Audio SLP-5 Cary Audio SLP-5
# Chapter Audio Preface Chapter Audio Preface
# Classè CP65 Class CP65
# Classè CP-500 Class CP-500
# Classè CP-700 Class CP-700
# Conrad Johnson CT5 Conrad Johnson CT5
# Conrad Johnson CT6 Conrad Johnson CT6
# Conrad Johnson Premier 18LS Conrad Johnson Premier 18LS
# Conrad Johnson PV14L Conrad Johnson PV14L
# Conrad Johnson PV15 Conrad Johnson PV15
# Densen B-200 Dense B-200
# Densen B-230 Dense B-230
# Densen B-250 Dense B-250
# GamuT D3 Gamut D3
# GamuT D3i Gamut D3i
# Jeff Rowland Capri Preamplifier Jeff Rowland Capri Preamplifier
# Jeff Rowland Coherence II Jeff Rowland Coherence II
# Jeff Rowland Concerto Preamplifier Jeff Rowland Concerto Preamplifier
# Jeff Rowland Synergy IIi Jeff Rowland Synergy IIi
# Krell KCT Krell KCT
# Krell Evolution two Krell Evolution two
# Krell Evolution 202 Krell Evolution 202
# Krell Evolution 222 Krell Evolution 222
# Krell KAV-250p Krell Kav-250p
# Krell KPS-25SC (inkl. CD-spiller) Krell KPS-25SC (includes CD-player)
# Krell KRC 3 Krell KRC 3
# Krell KRC-HR Krell KRC-HR
# Linn Klimax Kontrol Linn climax control
# Linn Kolektor Linn Kolektor
# Mark Levinson N° 32 Mark Levinson N ° 32
# Mark Levinson N° 320 Mark Levinson N ° 320
# Mark Levinson N° 320S Mark Levinson N ° 320s
# Mark Levinson N° 326S Mark Levinson N ° 326S
# Mark Levinson N° 38 Mark Levinson N ° 38
# Mark Levinson N° 380 Mark Levinson N ° 380
# Mark Levinson N° 380S Mark Levinson N ° 380S
# McCormack RLD-1 McCormack RLD-1
# Micromega PA-20 Micro Mega PA-20
# Musical Fiodelity A1 FBP Musical Fiodelity A1 FBP
# Musical Fidelity A5cr Premplifier Musical Fidelity A5cr Premplifier
# Musical Fidelity kW Tube (6112) Line Preamplifier Musical Fidelity kW Tube (6112) Line Preamplifier
# Naim NAC 112x Naim NAC 112x
# Naim NAC 122x Naim NAC 122x
# Naim NAC 202 Naim NAC 202
# Naim NAC 252 Naim NAC 252
# Naim NAC 282 Naim NAC 282
# Naim NAC 552 Naim NAC 552
# Parasound Halo P7 Para Sound Halo P7
# Parasound NewClassic Model 2100 (Æresmedlem) Para Sound NewClassic Model 2100 (honorary member)
# Primare PRE30 PreAmplifier Primare PRE30 PreAmplifier
# PS Audio PCA-2 PS Audio PCA-2
# Rouge Audio Perseus Rouge Audio Perseus
# Sim Audio MOON P-3 Sim Audio MOON P-3
# Sim Audio MOON P-5 Sim Audio MOON P-5
# Sim Audio MOON P-7 Sim Audio MOON P-7
# Sim Audio MOON P-8 Sim Audio MOON P-8
# Supratek Chardonnay Supratek Chardonnay
# VTL TL-2.5 VTL TL-2.5
# VTL TL-5.5 VTL TL-5.5
# VTL TL-6.5 VTL TL-6.5
# VTL TL-7.5 VTL TL-7.5
# Yba Passion 400 PRE Yba Passion 400 PRE
# Yba Passion 600 PRE Yba Passion 600 PRE
# Yba Passion 1000 PRE Yba Passion 1000 PRE

 

[mtrycrafts]

Thanks for your note (and warning ), mtrycrafts. However, I'll have to respectfully disagree with you about there being no sonic difference between all these prepros. I'm afraid my brain tells me different . I think I hear differences (kind of like hearing voices, right? ) So, I guess I'm looking for advice from folks as deluded as me .

Yes, your brain will tell you that there is a difference even when the same component is presented twice in an A/B comparison and under blind conditions. That is the real problem. Your brain can and will mislead you about real audible differences. This is well known in human psychology and in audio.
But, when components are compared, levels matched, blind protocol not exceeding design limits of components, modern, well designed audio just cannot be differentiated audibly, period.
You don't need to believe me. It is what the evidence points to and 30 years of research and 100 years of psycoacoutics.

...And that's why I'm looking for uber-quality audio and not all the latest codecs.

Yes, you may be looking for this and your brain will convince you but reality is different. Your choice, of course.

 

[walter duque]

How about a B&K Ref 50 S2 used around $600.--

 

[Seth=L]

The best thing you can do for yourself is to put your "ears" to the test, not your brain. I suggest doing a level matched DBT sometime too see if it changes your perspective.

 

[fbonzo]

Ears beat brain, but time, space, & $ countervale

The best thing you can do for yourself is to put your "ears" to the test, not your brain. I suggest doing a level matched DBT sometime too see if it changes your perspective.

I totally agree, Seth=L, but the nature of this question is that I'm talking about a wide variety of used gear that simply isn't available for all-at-once DBTing, so I'm depending on the opinions (read "ears") of my fellow audiopholk. I'm just trying to narrow down the # of "passes" through ebay/Audiogon (and I thouht this same information might be of interest and use to others who share my preferences).

 

[mtrycrafts]

I totally agree, Seth=L, but the nature of this question is that I'm talking about a wide variety of used gear that simply isn't available for all-at-once DBTing, so I'm depending on the opinions (read "ears") of my fellow audiopholk. I'm just trying to narrow down the # of "passes" through ebay/Audiogon (and I thouht this same information might be of interest and use to others who share my preferences).

The components you listed are not the real esoterica that may indeed be designed to be euphonic. So, the probability that any will sound different under the gold standard protocol is extremely small at best.

And, you just cannot bypass the brain, hence the need for proper controls, if one is after reality, not illusions The latter can be had with anything at any cost.

 

[adwilk]

Thanks a lot for the recommendation, bandphan, but I (perhaps not so humbly) would beg to differ.

Then why are you even asking for advice? I can't tell you what you can and can't HEAR, but I wouldn't buy a processor based on being able to HEAR a difference anyways. They SHOULD all be sonically transparent. The recommended Onkyo is a fantastic piece of equipment and presents a much greater value than the stuff you're looking at IMO.

 

[walter duque]

IMO you can get the best Pre-Pro but you're still using mediocre speakers and poweramps. The speakers and amps your using are middle of the road. Good, but nothing great. Aragon is maybe a notch above Onkyo and that's a maybe. Maggies I owned 25 years ago and as I recall not for that long, I think I replaced them with Fourier speakers.

 

[bandphan]

I posted without enough thought and or research, sorry.

Its not the draft just per pros


Anyhoo. The benefits of the 885 over the listed gear is far greater then the "ears" argument. I've installed enough high dollar gear to know in the home theater environment that perception is nice but its not reality. If it were truly a matter of 2ch play back and analog, I wouldn't be looking to any ht pre pro.