The Absolute Sound/Hi-Fi+ Guide to High-Performance Loudspeakers

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Most impartantly is...... TO ENJOY THE MUSIC, my friend

Enjoy the music, enjoy the hobby, and don't take it too seriously; there is absolutely no reason to get angry over something we don't agree on; it's a just HOBBY.

We cool.

 

[haraldo]

Enjoy the music, enjoy the hobby, and don't take it too seriously; there is absolutely no reason to get angry over something we don't agree on; it's a just HOBBY.

We cool.

Couldn't agree more

 

[jliedeka]

My philosophy on people who believe they can hear differences between cables and amps is that it is their wallet, not mine.

Jim

 

[Boerd]

My philosophy on people who believe they can hear differences between cables and amps is that it is their wallet, not mine.

Jim

+1 vote here - learned it the hard (costly) way.

 

[haraldo]

My philosophy on people who believe they can hear differences between cables and amps is that it is their wallet, not mine.

Jim

Have you ever tried.....

Don't you think that some amp's may not be able to drive some speakers.......

I have a set of Duntech PCL-15 speakers. very very difficult to drive

When I bought them many years ago I had a Nikko Alpha III power amplifier, and it didn't sound well at all with this amp, with other amps they were brilliant.... If I turned up volume it very quickly sounded bright and harsh.....

The Nikko III worked beautifully with some DIY speakers that I had, that were much more efficient than the Duntechs.

When I switced to a Tandberg TIA 3032A integrated amp, everything was cleaned up to an extent that really surprised me, despite this amplifier should not be more powerful than the Nikko... Difference being so big it would take me half a second to notice difference in a DBT test....

Power rating for the Tandberg TIA 3032A is 2 * 100w in 8 ohms THD < 0.015%
While the Nikko III has a spec of 2 * 80w in 8 ohms THD < ???

 

[3db]

Have you ever tried.....

Don't you think that some amp's may not be able to drive some speakers.......

I have a set of Duntech PCL-15 speakers. very very difficult to drive

When I bought them many years ago I had a Nikko Alpha III power amplifier, and it didn't sound well at all with this amp, with other amps they were brilliant.... If I turned up volume it very quickly sounded bright and harsh.....

The Nikko III worked beautifully with some DIY speakers that I had, that were much more efficient than the Duntechs.

When I switced to a Tandberg TIA 3032A integrated amp, everything was cleaned up to an extent that really surprised me, despite this amplifier should not be more powerful than the Nikko... Difference being so big it would take me half a second to notice difference in a DBT test....

Power rating for the Tandberg TIA 3032A is 2 * 100w in 8 ohms THD < 0.015%
While the Nikko III has a spec of 2 * 80w in 8 ohms THD < ???

If you level match the speakers to the same volume and as long as you are well within the amps' power output range, I don't think you'd be able to tell. Why? I think this because you if you look at the frequency response curves of amplifiers, they are ruler flat well beyond the audio range. If amp A sounded one way an amp B sound another way, then the frequwency response curves would show this with emphasis on the frequencie that give it that sound. Know what I mean? Now as you begin to push an amplifier near the top of its limits, then you will be able to tell differences from one amp to the next depending on how the protection circuits are employed. Just my 2 cents.

 

[haraldo]

If you level match the speakers to the same volume and as long as you are well within the amps' power output range, I don't think you'd be able to tell. Why? I think this because you if you look at the frequency response curves of amplifiers, they are ruler flat well beyond the audio range. If amp A sounded one way an amp B sound another way, then the frequwency response curves would show this with emphasis on the frequencie that give it that sound. Know what I mean? Now as you begin to push an amplifier near the top of its limits, then you will be able to tell differences from one amp to the next depending on how the protection circuits are employed. Just my 2 cents.

No amps are ruler flat at all I believe

The specs published utilizes a resistive load and there are no speakers that present a resistive load, so when you combine the complex load of a speaker, the frequency curve of an amp will not be as flat anymore.... whether it's this that may make differences or actual compression due to the fact that some speakers require the amp to provide quite significent current loads.... I don't know....

There are many other things like TIM and phase response ans others....
I know there's a story about a guy working at Adyton in Norway doing the fine tuning of amplifiers by ear, because the measuring instuments was not fine tuned enough to get it 100% right....

Whether this is fact or fiction, I have no idea, but it's an amusing story

A higher bandwidth will make the phase response more linear within the 20KHz bandwidth, you need very very wide bandwidth to get linear phase response up to 20KHz. Whether this makes a difference or not.... I have no idea

There's much more than frequency response and thd that may make a difference, I think......

 

[haraldo]

Sorry guys there shouldn't be this face on the last post, that's just a typo

 

[3db]

No amps are ruler flat at all I believe

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/anthem_statement_p2/

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/amplifiers/bryston_2bsst/

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/krell_fpb300c/

If you look at the frequency response, there within 0.5 db throughout the audable range which is impercetable to human hearing. For all intense purposes, ruler flat

The specs published utilizes a resistive load and there are no speakers that present a resistive load, so when you combine the complex load of a speaker, the frequency curve of an amp will not be as flat anymore.... whether it's this that may make differences or actual compression due to the fact that some speakers require the amp to provide quite significent current loads.... I don't know....

There are many other things like TIM and phase response ans others....
I know there's a story about a guy working at Adyton in Norway doing the fine tuning of amplifiers by ear, because the measuring instuments was not fine tuned enough to get it 100% right....

Whether this is fact or fiction, I have no idea, but it's an amusing story

A higher bandwidth will make the phase response more linear within the 20KHz bandwidth, you need very very wide bandwidth to get linear phase response up to 20KHz. Whether this makes a difference or not.... I have no idea

There's much more than frequency response and thd that may make a difference, I think......

Only when you begin to push the amp will the reactive loads take a toll on the amp. But if operating well within their powerband, reactive loads such as presented by speakers won't alter the sound from amp A to amp B.

 

[Boerd]

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/anthem_statement_p2/

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/amplifiers/bryston_2bsst/

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/krell_fpb300c/

If you look at the frequency response, there within 0.5 db throughout the audable range which is impercetable to human hearing. For all intense purposes, ruler flat



Only when you begin to push the amp will the reactive loads take a toll on the amp. But if operating well within their powerband, reactive loads such as presented by speakers won't alter the sound from amp A to amp B.

You don't even need to go to the uber expensive ones.
Emotiva makes 4-800$ amps that are fantastic - just look at the measurements - they are ruler flat. And again - under 800$ even as low as 399$ for some models.
Plus they do well under 4ohms whitin the power range - look at the pdf for measurements on their website.

 

[3db]

You don't even need to go to the uber expensive ones.
Emotiva makes 4-800$ amps that are fantastic - just look at the measurements - they are ruler flat. And gain - under 800$ even as low as 399$ for some models.
Plus they do well under 4ohms whitin the power range - look at the pdf for measurements on their website.

This is true....but I thought i go expensive because in the real world I'd never be able to afford one of them and keep the wife at the same time.

Seriously, I chose the high end amps becuase this where most of audiophilia likes to hang out saying one amp sounds better than the other. But looking at the curves, I don't think thats possible.

 

[Boerd]

...
I know there's a story about a guy working at Adyton in Norway doing the fine tuning of amplifiers by ear, because the measuring instuments was not fine tuned enough to get it 100% right.
Whether this is fact or fiction, I have no idea, but it's an amusing story...
...

This sounds like "listening to cables".
I bet that guy was hearing angel voices too.
Sensing 0.5 db SPL difference by a human ear is extreme (don't think is possible but let's call it extreme).
Sensing the difference between 11000 Hz (i.e. 11 Khz) and 11010 Hz (11Khz + 10 Hz) is impossible by humans yet a normal measuring instrument will detect both.
Now let's go to .01 db SPL difference and 11000 Hz (i.e. 11 Khz) vs 11001 Hz (11Khz + 1 Hz) - NOBODY will hear the difference.
Not even people from Norway.
So - this story is just that - a bad story (a lie) and you know it.
Sorry I am not (very) amused by it - hifi has a chance only when we get rid of this BS companies that sell us gear tuned "by ear".
If you can't hear the diference (even if it is measurable) - don't spend the money.
And you CANNOT hear a difference if it can't be measured.
My 2c.

 

[Boerd]

This is true....but I thought i go expensive because in the real world I'd never be able to afford one of them and keep the wife at the same time.

Seriously, I chose the high end amps becuase this where most of audiophilia likes to hang out saying one amp sounds better than the other. But looking at the curves, I don't think thats possible.

Well - I once sold a 499$ integrated Marantz to buy a 1499$ Primare (my previous system).
Yet while playing music I couldn't hear the difference (if anything Marantz was better).
Believe it or not I kept the Primare - sooo cool looking (don't you dare make fun of me)
I'll never EVER do that again.

 

[haraldo]

Well I would actually very much like to test out Emotiva amps, they look like incredible bargains, but unfortunately expensive shipping to Norway

 

[3db]

Well - I once sold a 499$ integrated Marantz to buy a 1499$ Primare (my previous system).
Yet while playing music I couldn't hear the difference (if anything Marantz was better).
Believe it or not I kept the Primare - sooo cool looking (don't you dare make fun of me)
I'll never EVER do that again.

Hey, if you have the cash and love the aethetics, more power to you.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
If we tell the average person that ultra-expensive speakers may sound WORSE than a high quality pr of < $10K speakers, they would have a hard time believing us.

And I can certainly understand that too. One only has to look at the population at large and facts about any consumer market area. Much easier to accept myths, less work and equally satisfying to them.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...You would think that if their products were really (not imaginative) sonically superior to others, that the onus would fall on them and be to their benefit, to perform or have independently performed (maybe even free by a higher learning institution, etc.) a controlled, blind test that eliminated the imagination, gain, etc., etc., etc. from being the reason. Then they could legitimately claim and advertise based on real evidence, not anecdote, that their products were indeed superior...and therefore possibly worth the exorbitant prices.
But of course, they won't. Hmmm......
...AJ

Oh, but many like anecdotes just fine Facts never seems to get in their way.

 

[PENG]

If you can't hear the diference (even if it is measurable) - don't spend the money.
And you CANNOT hear a difference if it can't be measured.
My 2c.

Don't you find it funny scientific knowledge, data, measurement instruments get us to the moon and back years ago yet people could not accept specs that can be displayed on accurate measurement instruments? Engineers who design, build, test and measure amps must be laughing eveyday at work.

Seriously when I spent big (by my standard) money on my Bryston, Denon universal, Chesky SACDs, I expected to get audible improvements but now I would concentrate on identifying high quality recordings (CD, SACD or BR regardless) by reading a lot of reviews and focus on saving up for speaker upgrade because I now know for sure that's the way to get the best sound quality improvements for the money. I have long given up on McIntosh but I still love their look.

 

[just listening]

Well I would actually very much like to test out Emotiva amps, they look like incredible bargains, but unfortunately expensive shipping to Norway

If you haven't already, take a listen to Hegel gear, impressive stuff with very nice resolution level.

 

[TLS Guy]

If you level match the speakers to the same volume and as long as you are well within the amps' power output range, I don't think you'd be able to tell. Why? I think this because you if you look at the frequency response curves of amplifiers, they are ruler flat well beyond the audio range. If amp A sounded one way an amp B sound another way, then the frequwency response curves would show this with emphasis on the frequencie that give it that sound. Know what I mean? Now as you begin to push an amplifier near the top of its limits, then you will be able to tell differences from one amp to the next depending on how the protection circuits are employed. Just my 2 cents.

The problem is amps are measured with resistive loads and they are nothing like speaker loads. The amp speaker interface is a not well understood area, and then you have the issue of a huge number of speaker designs all over the map.

This is an area that the late Peter Walker did a lot of work on. He told me it was a nightmare investigation and hard to get really useful information. All he could really do was make his output stages, especially his later amps, perform optimally under the widest range of conditions possible and be stable. His amps were guaranteed unconditionally stable into all loads. I can't think of another amp manufacturer that dared to state that.

Then there is his infamous double blind study for the golden ears, over the tube solid state debate.

The speakers were his Quad ESL 64s, so Unfortunately not your typical speaker load, but not an easy one either.

The amps were his famous Quad II tube amps, his first solid state amp the Quad 303 and one of his current dumping amps a Quad 405-2. There was also an "experimental" amp included in the test. This was an amp to which Peter had naughtily added 2% THD.

The result was that the golden ears could not make a statistically significant different choice in their amps, and could not reliably identify any of them.

The golden eared crowd never forgave him!