Ten Reasons Why High Definition DVD Formats Have Already Failed

[Blundaar]

To add to the bonfire check out Blu-ray 1st impressions over at Digital Bits. Thinking about throwing some popcorn in the microwave before I take my front-row seat and watch this meltdown.

 

[Audioholics]

"Blundaar" - that has got to be the coolest forum name I've seen in a while. Brings to mind a klutzy barbarian skit...

 

[Blundaar]

Thank goodness I'm slightly more competent than the name implies. My username is in homage to my favorite cartoon- The Tick.

 

[ned]

I'm in the minority here and don't agree with most it.

1. I have zero problems with my HD DVD. People who have problems tend to post and complain the most. I'm happy with the unit as is.

2 Software is a sotware is a software. Movies or games people will buy different equipment to see the movies. Dual player are in the recent press released this week.

3. No? It is for me. I use an outboard scaler and an upconverter DVD player and there is no comparison to HD. HD is HD.

4. I got my first HD-DVD at $19. Same as SD-DVD.

5. I for one am not counting PS3 to sell blu-ray. So this statement doesn't mean much.

6. Just like buying stocks, history may help but by no means predict the outcome. So this is pure wild guess.

7. I see huge difference between an upconverted 480i DVD with a scaler to HD. More so with a regular 480p DVD player.

8. Actually they are very excited. Check out AVSforum.

9. Media can certainly influence buyer but they certainly don't tell the whole truth.

10. This is no competition here.

Has the new format failed? It's too early to tell unless you have a crystal ball. It has just began give it sometime. But on thing is for sure, it is here to stay!

 

[JAD2]

You don't have to guess; the numbers are well-known. World-wide, about 16 million households have HDTVs. The current market is about 25 BILLION dollars annually. In a couple of years it will be 70 BILLION.

You're not suggesting that there isn't a HUGE market for HDTV content, or that HDTV isn't here to stay, growing bigger and bigger every year, are you??? More content will only make it grow faster still. Don't forget broadcast TV is going digital in a few years.

So YES there are LOTS of HDTVs out there. Before long they will ALL be HDTVs. Some TV manufacturers no longer sell CRT sets at all.

No I did not suggest there isnt a huge market for HDTV.
Thats actually one of the problems.
Like I said forget us very few and concentrate on the masses.
Affording a TV is a huge boundary for the majority of all people. If these people buy them the first thing most are gonna want is better broadcast signals. DVD are a far shot down on there list, but if they decided and reading what media reports are out there, they will settle for a upconverted one or just plain progressive scan ones. This will be a huge jump from what they currently have and they wont risk laying out big dollars for something that hasnt fully stated it would be totally compliant to play older DVD's amongst other obstacles.
What I stated had nothing to do with TV's, but cable, sat etc all at least going fully digital which then the masses that cant afford the DVD players will push for more HD programming.
Clint hit alot of it right on the head and I just expanded it outward because what he wrote keys more on the few like us and not what the average Joe is gonna go through. Now you have the format wars, something that happened years ago, you allready have decent DVD's with upconverting, progressive features and reports something better is allready in the works, that knowing technology trends of recent years would agree with. DO you jump on either side or even if it settles fast which it wont, still do you??

 

[ned]

you allready have decent DVD's with upconverting, progressive features and reports something better is allready in the works, that knowing technology trends of recent years would agree with. DO you jump on either side or even if it settles fast which it wont, still do you??

When you make comments like that , have you criticaly did an A/B comparison between upconverted sd vs HD-DVD? What do you mean by reports of somehting better in the works.?

 

[ned]

One of the points of the editorial was that the Blu-ray and HD-DVD discs aren't significantly different looking (physically) than DVDs. I think part of the success of the iPod and other MP3 players is due to the novelty of a completely new way of transporting your music. People don't go to a store to check out the latest DVD player (and I don't think they'll go to check out something that looks and feels just like one as well). They do go to check out something totally different like an iPod. Just my opinion.

DVD is DVD it's about the content not a novelty. You're comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Tom Andry]

DVD is DVD it's about the content not a novelty. You're comparing apples to oranges.

To you and me maybe. To Joe Consumer? My mother still doesn't understand why a dvd won't just play the sound track to a movie when she sticks it in her CD player. I think a lot of people are going to look at a disc that looks like a DVD and say, "Huh? So what's the big deal? I've already got a DVD player."

 

[ned]

To you and me maybe. To Joe Consumer? My mother still doesn't understand why a dvd won't just play the sound track to a movie when she sticks it in her CD player. I think a lot of people are going to look at a disc that looks like a DVD and say, "Huh? So what's the big deal? I've already got a DVD player."

Hey, I'm that Joe consumer you're referring to!

You're assuming people will pre-judge the new technology negatively. I think it will be more like "It looks like a DVD disc, what's the difference?"

I don't understand the negativity in the editorial staff to the new technology. Give it some time. Don't rush into judgement. Nobody knows what's going to happen.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

To add to the bonfire check out Blu-ray 1st impressions over at Digital Bits. Thinking about throwing some popcorn in the microwave before I take my front-row seat and watch this meltdown.

Just finished reading it. I'll save you some time and post some quotes from an unknown author (I don't see his name).

The Digital Bits
My Two Cents 6/21/06

... You know how I keep saying that these formats are being rushed to market about a year before they're ready? And you recall how hard I was on the HD-DVD camp for their klutzy launch and buggy hardware? And you know how I said that Blu-ray Disc looked like the superior format, at least on paper? Well... unfortunately, the Blu-ray camp has dropped a dud with their big launch too. Every bit as klutzy as HD-DVD...

You fire the BD-P1000 up and the first thing you notice is a sexy blue glow from the various openings on the player. Nice... except I have yet to find a dimmer. And it's just a little too bright, you know? Anyway... the player fires up very quickly. You get a welcome screen within about 5 seconds of power-on. BIG improvement over the Tosh HD-DVD player. You can load a disc after less then 30 seconds, also an improvement over the Tosh...

There are some problems I'm seeing right away with all of the Blu-ray Disc titles on the BD-P1000. First, when I switch to 1080i, I'm noticing some very obvious scaling issues that I don't see when the player is set to 720p. I also don't see anything like this on the Toshiba HD-A1 at any resolution, so this is specific to THIS player, which may be why Samsung ships it with 720p set by default. Second, I'm noticing a very slight "studdering" problem. About once a second, or maybe once every few seconds, the video seems to hesitate for just a instant - a tiny fraction of a second. You notice it most when the images on screen are moving quickly, or when the camera is panning. It may be that this issue is related to the first. Still trying to figure out what I'm seeing here.. Again, it's not something I've seen on any HD-DVD titles thus far...

I think I may end up giving Round One of this format war to HD-DVD, and that surprises the hell out of me. Sure, that Tosh HD-DVD player was a lemon until the firmware upgrade, but it's worked like a charm since. And the first 25 or so HD-DVD discs I've viewed just look better overall than the first 4 Blu-ray Discs I've seen. The HD-DVDs also have a LOT more extra features than the Blu-ray Discs (even if you consider that most of the extras are recycled from standard DVD)... I keep hearing these comments (both official and unofficial) from Blu-ray execs saying that they're leaving off the extras so they can give all the extra disc space over to the best video quality possible. Which tells me that Blu-ray is having major disc space problems. I've heard from more than a few industry sources that Blu-ray is having trouble getting the dual-layered BD media to work, which means that discs with lots of extras and good video quality aren't an option now. It also means that longer movies aren't an option now either. Both are problems for this format that don't seem to be troubling HD-DVD at the moment - at least not at first glance, based on the initial title offering...

What all of this goes to prove, of course, is just what I've been saying all along: These formats are being rushed to market before they're ready. And it also proves that the best option for the vast majority of you out there is just to save your money. Don't even bother with Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD for at least a year, because there are significant bugs to be worked out yet. Wait until better hardware and software is available at a better price, and the early adopter types have dealt with the problems and getting the manufacturers and studios to fix them...

But so far, I'm less than impressed.

 

[JAD2]

When you make comments like that , have you criticaly did an A/B comparison between upconverted sd vs HD-DVD? What do you mean by reports of somehting better in the works.?

A store here had the HD unit from Toshiba and a Sony that accepts 1080P signals and displays them as such. Next to it we set up a Samsung 960 to a Sony Bravia cause I wanted to see the difference. The salesguy goes and gets 2 movie dvd's, same titles, one HD and one regular. Dont know the name of the movie since its not something I would watch but we had them in tandem pausing one till the other caught up. Set the 960 to 720P and both through a Polk system. Stood there and looked as closely as I could, yeah some difference but so subtle at times you woudnt know its there. Now it could be the movie, that I'll give it, but even so using both the same movie it didnt impress me!!

Now Toms post-To you and me maybe. To Joe Consumer? My mother still doesn't understand why a dvd won't just play the sound track to a movie when she sticks it in her CD player. I think a lot of people are going to look at a disc that looks like a DVD and say, "Huh? So what's the big deal? I've already got a DVD player." To me that says it all, FORGET US, there are more out there that have this attitude by a HUGE margin it isnt funny.

I got 48 people at work, 2 and one is myself have HD sets. Maybe one more has a home theater setup on his old TV. The other with a HD set is a transplant/adopted Laotian and his wife Japanese. VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY Sony pro and a gamer. Got so pissed at the delayed launch of the PS3, he bought a X-box and according to him his Asian friends are all doing the same thing and turning their noses up to Sony, PS3 and Blue Ray players. We've talked a few times over this mess and he showed me on the net some Chinese company that has a foot up on a new format DVD type system that will hold more info and adopt older DVD's to it. Now if people remember computers and discs holding more data, more consumers have them than any other HD type stuff, who's gonna win out, HD-DVD or Blueray or this other format in testing which maybe done by the time the format war is over and kill it!!!

I mean really, my last 24 years I've seen technical improvements BLAST onto the seen. If you aint got it right and have all these issues, yet someoneelse is out there not making that mistake, who wins????

 

[bobgpsr]

I have been very much enjoying hi def DVD in the form of a Toshiba HD DVD player for the past two months. In the context of one who very much cares about the quality of audio and video playback -- I think it is a winner. Maybe not for the general public yet --- that needs much lower entry cost. But if one has a decent display (I have a 1080p 37" LCD) and a decent sound system (a 100w per chan 5.1 system with a very well powered DIY 15" + two 18" PR sub) then going high def DVD playback now very much helps to complete the experience.

A limited answer to the editorial points:

1. 1080i60 out of the Tos works very well (all pixels recovered) with a 1080p display that does proper reverse 3:2 pullup. 1080p60 is not required as a transport for 1080p24 film source. The 70 sec power on delay is very bearable. Audio will soon get better with the impending firmware update to get 5.1 Dolby TrueHD. 30+ software titles now along with upcoming things like King Kong and Batman Begins is enough software for me (all my wallet can stand).

2. The competition gave us a $500 price from Toshiba for a >$1k value (high quality build and parts).

3. 6x more pixels. I think that is a leap.

4. Well at least Warner and Universal have released things that I have enjoyed very much. Phantom of the Opera and Serenity.

5. I don't care!

6. A Laserdisc type success is good enough for me.

.... gotta run...called to supper...

Bob

 

[ned]

A store here had the HD unit from Toshiba and a Sony that accepts 1080P signals and displays them as such. Next to it we set up a Samsung 960 to a Sony Bravia cause I wanted to see the difference. The salesguy goes and gets 2 movie dvd's, same titles, one HD and one regular. Dont know the name of the movie since its not something I would watch but we had them in tandem pausing one till the other caught up. Set the 960 to 720P and both through a Polk system. Stood there and looked as closely as I could, yeah some difference but so subtle at times you woudnt know its there. Now it could be the movie, that I'll give it, but even so using both the same movie it didnt impress me!!

Now Toms post-To you and me maybe. To Joe Consumer? My mother still doesn't understand why a dvd won't just play the sound track to a movie when she sticks it in her CD player. I think a lot of people are going to look at a disc that looks like a DVD and say, "Huh? So what's the big deal? I've already got a DVD player." To me that says it all, FORGET US, there are more out there that have this attitude by a HUGE margin it isnt funny.

I got 48 people at work, 2 and one is myself have HD sets. Maybe one more has a home theater setup on his old TV. The other with a HD set is a transplant/adopted Laotian and his wife Japanese. VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY Sony pro and a gamer. Got so pissed at the delayed launch of the PS3, he bought a X-box and according to him his Asian friends are all doing the same thing and turning their noses up to Sony, PS3 and Blue Ray players. We've talked a few times over this mess and he showed me on the net some Chinese company that has a foot up on a new format DVD type system that will hold more info and adopt older DVD's to it. Now if people remember computers and discs holding more data, more consumers have them than any other HD type stuff, who's gonna win out, HD-DVD or Blueray or this other format in testing which maybe done by the time the format war is over and kill it!!!

I mean really, my last 24 years I've seen technical improvements BLAST onto the seen. If you aint got it right and have all these issues, yet someoneelse is out there not making that mistake, who wins????

Store is not a place to do critical viewing, IMHO.

I'm not sure what do you mean by a mess. I don't see any mess. I for one am glad to see the HD in its full glory.

 

[Audioholics]

Hey, I'm that Joe consumer you're referring to!

Well, not really. From your posts your either an early adopter or someone who has already made up their mind that the new HD-DVD format is for them. And that's OK, but you are clearly not in line with Joey and Susie American who aren't into this technology up to their necks.

 

[ned]

Well, not really. From your posts your either an early adopter or someone who has already made up their mind that the new HD-DVD format is for them. And that's OK, but you are clearly not in line with Joey and Susie American who aren't into this technology up to their necks.

Clint,

I have high regards for your insight and comments. It has always been a pleasure to read your article. I maybe an early adopter but I just don't think that is what's going on with HD (DVD). You maybe disappointed with how bluray turned out or the initial glitch of HD DVD and I can certainly understand your view or how the MPAA and their DRM forces themselves down our throat.

But with all due respect, please give it sometime to play it out in the market. I'm not in favor of a particular format. I hope both co-exist, dual players become reasonably available or a merger of format of some sort. This is the future and we must face it.

The sad part is that a lot of post come from people who have not seen it, have not seen it with the right setup, have not owned the equipment and is only going along the crowd.

Am I disappointed with your editorial? Very much so. Because I believe your reasoning does not reflect the nature of technology at this time. Not because I refuse to see it but that I've experienced it first hand and it is not what you've described in your editorial.

I'm not an insider, engineer or anything that you may consider part of the industry. I'm just an informed consumer.

 

[Wayde Robson]

Wow there are a lot of replies to this and I'm sure nobody wants to read anymore but I think...

The editorial didn't (IMHO) make any bold market assertions about next gen disks.

I thought Clint says "failed" as a general idea, the formats have failed him and therefore failed consumers at large.

As for someone who has rushed out and bought one or the other. Hey, that's fair - you're an early adopter. You already knew that. You just paid the most money for the least features, least reliable technologically inferior example of the given technology.

But you already knew that and the value of a dollar is a subjective matter.

If you're happy with your Toshi HD-A1, more power to you. By all reports it has the best picture quality so far. Enjoy. But I don't think that takes anything away from this editorial.

Hell, if I had an extra $500 burning a hole in my pocket I might buy an HD-A1too (or not simply on principle). It wouldn't stop me from recognizing (bit**ing) about it's shortcomings - lack of native 1080P, HDMI 1.3, slow tray and loud fan.

 

[JAD2]

Clint,


The sad part is that a lot of post come from people who have not seen it, have not seen it with the right setup, have not owned the equipment and is only going along the crowd.

I'm just an informed consumer.

Informed or not, your one sided swayed.
Your not and average Joe, not even close.
Setup right or wrong, it doesnt matter, if it cannot work properly right, from the get go it wont sell cause it didnt awe me like what Ive allready done and that took alot of cost justification to do.
I just dropped in the last year $1000's of dollars to upgrade outdated stuff.
2 LCD's
2 Home Computers
2 DVD players
One main surround setup

I know that I'm a rarity-minor percentage of the public that just went and did all this because thats how I am. As I get older I like to keep up to date, not be and old geezer, informed-educated consumer that likes toys!!! We are a rarity, not and average Joe and average Joe out populates us by over 90%. They dont have surrounds, dont want them , still have console TV's and go to movies for this awe. They are not gonna make this mainstream because they allready are coming upon the time there gonna have to dump well more than what they would like when that 25 year old console pukes out and have to buy a HDTV. There gonna have to get new antenneas, cable, sat, hookups and so fourth, HD DVD's are not even a though even if it wasnt buggy, didnt have problems nor a war in place.
I'm on the rare end of willing to defend this stuff, but I know its time is limited, there will be better in the works by the time the bugs are out, prices are affordable and war is settled. Its too much, too fast at the wrong time and if people like me that dont have the next level of this addiction dont buy into it, the smaller percentage of higher addicts isnt going to afford to pay all this R&D and price drop it etc to the point maybe more will jump on board.
Right now lets just settle this digital transition and get it over it, along with more HD broadcasts, that will sell and go fourth. You got to have a taste of it to get the thirst and thats what average Joe needs to push him along.

 

[Audioholics]

Well, just to smooth things out a bit - the main thing to note is that I'm not disappointed per se in the quality of Blu-ray or HD-DVD (though Blu-ray coming out with MPEG-2 masters instead of using the newer/better CODECs was indeed a disappointment). I am predicting the demise of these formats in terms of mass consumer adoption (like DVD or CD).

This isn't about the formats or how great they are - DVD-Audio, SACD, DAT, and minidisc are all great formats - but they share one thing in common: Your Mom, Dad, and uncles probably don't know what they are. I think this will be the same road for HD-DVD and BD due to the reasons I cited.

It's not a wish - it's an observation (and of course, just my opinion).

They deleted this thread at AVS Forum BTW... so manufacturers really don't want to hear this either.

 

[ned]

Well, just to smooth things out a bit - the main thing to note is that I'm not disappointed per se in the quality of Blu-ray or HD-DVD (though Blu-ray coming out with MPEG-2 masters instead of using the newer/better CODECs was indeed a disappointment). I am predicting the demise of these formats in terms of mass consumer adoption (like DVD or CD).

This isn't about the formats or how great they are - DVD-Audio, SACD, DAT, and minidisc are all great formats - but they share one thing in common: Your Mom, Dad, and uncles probably don't know what they are. I think this will be the same road for HD-DVD and BD due to the reasons I cited.

It's not a wish - it's an observation (and of course, just my opinion).

They deleted this thread at AVS Forum BTW... so manufacturers really don't want to hear this either.

Clint,

Thanks for clarifying. I understand your intent but I still don't get your reasoning as we go thru stages in the adoption of new technology be it like VHS/DVD or not. This is not DVD-A/SACD or Minidisc. This is more like computer is too complicated nobody will buy it. It's just no comparison.

Anyway, I appreciate the discussion .

Thanks.

Ned

Ned

 

[JAD2]

Making it make more sense to you is siding with you and you just will not accept it average Joe ideal.

You got enough people allready buying TV's they dont understand and are disappointed when they get them hooked up.
Didnt use DVI/HDMI/component cables- Have to go back out and spend more money, time and headaches to get that right. and after all that finding out it still doesnt work HDMI/DVI and spent dam good money on Monster cables since BB, CC, Radio Shack, you know average Joe stores only sell that CRAP!
Then finally get it running, gfot all them expensive cables only turn it on to find out SD looks like crap and it doesnt look anywhere near as good in the store. Ooops time to spend more, antenna, cable sat connection time.
After now all that and more headaches and money, they dont broadcast more than 20% HD on HD Channels so now you have to take it as is or pester your local channels,cable and sat connection to make it better.
Now you got dead pixel/s, blown projector bulb and more you didnt fully understand, urg is becoming a factor fast.
That plasma/ projector TV in the sun room wont even show itself unless its dark, but looked darn good in the stores.
So much confusion, problems, misinformation, headaches, dollar spent and so fourth.

Thats only on average Joe that might be willing then like Clint said, Moms and Pops whom dont even know that this exists and the ones that do, have allready heard these horror stories. You got salespeople who know nothing, sat and cable installers who dont know much more about all this stuff and so on.

On top of that, us few who internet, have money, addiction and other problems that who are into this stuff arent pleased, thrilled, disappointed by whats going on and argue and debate it, answer daily hookup problems and so fourth.

Too much, too fast,yhe public is not ready for this ontop of whats allready happening. And for those companies promoting it as the end to all dreams and giving disapointments to it , it can not afford to make it a reality!!!!!

They would have had much better chances if they let the ashes settle on whats allready happening for HDTV etc. Got it right, complete as advertised, fully supportive of all formats, they might have a Gold Mine as it stands, odds say Flop no matter how it ends up.