Technical M&K speaker question?

[TLS Guy]

Wow, I can't say I'm surprised one bit! So to go from the 750 system to the 850 system only the tweeter is changed from Z11 to Z16 and from the 850 to the 950 is yet another tweeter swap! I'll bet my bank account that the 950 system uses the 750 THX crossover, I mean why pay for another THX certification fee when M&K already has one? I'm 100% sure the new Professional tweeters will do just fine with the one and only THX crossover that the 750, 850 and probably 950 all use!

It seems like a pretty ballsy statement, but with all the evidence collected it's most likely true! I'm not implying that M&K is doing anything wrong, M&K is simply improving on the original line of speaker systems by tweaking the drivers used. Now all we need is for someone with the 950's to remove the crossovers to see if it is indeed a 750 THX crossover! Well I guess I'll be buying a set of five pro tweeters next month for only $350 dollars, I will report back when I do and tell you how they sound!

I would like to thank you Jack and everyone else for contributing in this thread!

Regards,
Techlord.

It can't because you old tweeter (Z 11) is four ohm and the replacement (Z 16) is 8 ohm. So the inductor values need doubling and the capacitor values halving in the high pass filter, to keep the crossover point the same. There likely are other changes also.

Do you also understand, that if you change boxes, the internal volume of the new box has to be identical with the old, and any ports have to identical dimensions?

 

[Techlord]

It can't because you old tweeter (Z 11) is four ohm and the replacement (Z 16) is 8 ohm. So the inductor values need doubling and the capacitor values halving in the high pass filter, to keep the crossover point the same. There likely are other changes also.

Do you also understand, that if you change boxes, the internal volume of the new box has to be identical with the old, and any ports have to identical dimensions?

As for your first paragraph I think you are a little confused, in the 750, 850 and 950 systems the surrounds are 8ohm speakers while the front three are 4ohm speakers. I have looked at the dimensions of both my speaker cabinets and the new 950 speaker cabinets, the measurements are exactlly the same.

When M&K made the 850 system they only change from the Z11 to the Z16 tweeter and kept the crossover or cabinet, this time is no different except for the possibility of a different crossover. There are no ports in M&K speakers and woofers, M&K doesn't believe in porting their speakers in their 30 year history. So M&K took the already known Z16 and improved it's sound signature and quality of high frequency sound, it's just a better tweeter is all.

Regards,
Techlord.

 

[Techlord]

Here's the numbers:

Tweeter - Z16 MK TV 4 OHM
021215 MADE IN DENMARK

Woofer - Qc: 040303 Cat.no: 17012 8ohm
there is a barcode on it with the following #: 5 702548 306433

The board on the crossover is marked "THX 750"

The dimensions are 16" x 6-7/8" x 7-3/8" not including the grill. Not sure about the weight.

Which speaker drivers are we looking at, are you saying both the 4ohm tweeter and 8ohm woofer are from the same speaker?
If so I'll have to check my woofers to see what ohm rating they are, paring a 4ohm tweeter with an 8ohm woofer is strange!

Regards, Techlord.

 

[Jack Hammer]

Which speaker drivers are we looking at, are you saying both the 4ohm tweeter and 8ohm woofer are from the same speaker?
If so I'll have to check my woofers to see what ohm rating they are, paring a 4ohm tweeter with an 8ohm woofer is strange!

Regards, Techlord.

Yes, those are from the same speaker. Both woofers are 8ohm and the tweeter is 4ohm. IIRC, that's how most my M&K speakers are.

The 850's are not THX certified. I spoke to Ken at M&K before I bought them and he told me they were essentially the same speakers but the 850's had the better tweeter. He also said they didn't send them out for THX certification because the time and cost involved wasn't worth it.

Techlord, in case you are not aware the original M&K went bankrupt a few years ago and closed shop. Their inventory was liquedated, which is where most of the surplus and eBay items come from (some of these items were fine, others were QC rejects). The rights to the name and certain product lines were purchased by foreign investors who restarted ~a year later as MKSound. I understand some of the old employees were brought on board in some capacities, but I don't really know/recall the details. I have no idea how related the new speaker lines are to the original speaker lines and if they used the original designs, crossovers, and components or if new/modified ones are used. I also have no idea either way if the QC is held to the same stringent standards Ken Kreisel had.

 

[Techlord]

Yes, those are from the same speaker. Both woofers are 8ohm and the tweeter is 4ohm. IIRC, that's how most my M&K speakers are.

The 850's are not THX certified. I spoke to Ken at M&K before I bought them and he told me they were essentially the same speakers but the 850's had the better tweeter. He also said they didn't send them out for THX certification because the time and cost involved wasn't worth it.

Techlord, in case you are not aware the original M&K went bankrupt a few years ago and closed shop. Their inventory was liquedated, which is where most of the surplus and eBay items come from (some of these items were fine, others were QC rejects). The rights to the name and certain product lines were purchased by foreign investors who restarted ~a year later as MKSound. I understand some of the old employees were brought on board in some capacities, but I don't really know/recall the details. I have no idea how related the new speaker lines are to the original speaker lines and if they used the original designs, crossovers, and components or if new/modified ones are used. I also have no idea either way if the QC is held to the same stringent standards Ken Kreisel had.

It seems like a tweeter change from the Z11 to the Z16 requires a recertification, MK Sound has yet another tweeter change their THX certification is pending on the 950 Series. That is strange to have two 8ohm 5.25" woofers paired with a 4ohm tweeter, were your 850's specified as a 4ohm for the front 850 LCR's? My front 750 LCR's are 4ohm rated and specified on the back of the cabinets as 4ohms while my surrounds are labeled as 8ohm speakers.

I found out about M&K's downfall a few months ago and went over to another forum and read 72 pages of the death and rebirth of MK Sound, it is a shame that things played out the way they did as I once visited M&K in Culver City for a damaged metal thread insert from wall mounting one of the surrounds. I was impressed by Ken and his staffs fast and friendly customer service, I could tell they wanted my experience to have a lasting impression from which I will never forget!

Regards,
Techlord.

 

[Jack Hammer]

It seems like a tweeter change from the Z11 to the Z16 requires a recertification, MK Sound has yet another tweeter change their THX certification is pending on the 950 Series. That is strange to have two 8ohm 5.25" woofers paired with a 4ohm tweeter, were your 850's specified as a 4ohm for the front 850 LCR's? My front 750 LCR's are 4ohm rated and specified on the back of the cabinets as 4ohms while my surrounds are labeled as 8ohm speakers.

I found out about M&K's downfall a few months ago and went over to another forum and read 72 pages of the death and rebirth of MK Sound, it is a shame that things played out the way they did as I once visited M&K in Culver City for a damaged metal thread insert from wall mounting one of the surrounds. I was impressed by Ken and his staffs fast and friendly customer service, I could tell they wanted my experience to have a lasting impression from which I will never forget!

Regards,
Techlord.

The 850's LCR's are labeled as 4ohm speakers. I was really impressed with the crew at the California factory. I called them several times when I was first buying speakers and later as I upgraded. They always asked a lot of questions and took the time to help me find the right setup for me. They were very passionate about what they made.

 

[Techlord]

The 850's LCR's are labeled as 4ohm speakers. I was really impressed with the crew at the California factory. I called them several times when I was first buying speakers and later as I upgraded. They always asked a lot of questions and took the time to help me find the right setup for me. They were very passionate about what they made.

How does one get a 4ohm rated speaker by only having the tweeter at 4ohms and two 8ohm mid-woofers? Next month I plan on replacing all my Z11 tweeters with the new Professional studio tweeters, it will only cost me $350 or save up six months and buy the front three 950 LCRs if there worth the extra money spent. There would have to be a noticeable significant difference is sound quality! I should have my new SB-1250 amplifier and matching MK woofer middle of next week, UPS list my delivery as 2-11-10 while listing it as rescheduled! Any idea what that means?

Regards,
Techlord.

 

[Jack Hammer]

I really don't know much about speaker building. Just because the board for the crossover in the 850 is the same as the one used in the 750 series speakers doesn't necessarily mean all the capacitors, components on the board are identical. You may want to consider comparing your's before spending money.

 

[Techlord]

I really don't know much about speaker building. Just because the board for the crossover in the 850 is the same as the one used in the 750 series speakers doesn't necessarily mean all the capacitors, components on the board are identical. You may want to consider comparing your's before spending money.

Could you write down the values on your capacitors and components on your crossovers or pictres if you can get close enough with your camera? Thats the only way to be 100% sure.

Regrads, Teclord.

 

[TLS Guy]

Tweeters made by Vifa for Miller & Kreisel (M&K)

Z11 M&K TV 4 OHM, Miller & Kreisel 1" Tweeter - VIFA - Made in Denmark
Condition: New
Mfg: Abergetty
P/N: V82140-2


Z11 M&K TV 4 OHM, Miller & Kreisel 1" Tweeter - VIFA - Made in Denmark.

Also known as part #'s:

* P811267
* 17251
* Z11 M&K TV 4 OHM


Z11 M&K TV 4 OHM, Miller & Kreisel 1" Tweeter - VIFA - Made in Denmark

Z11MK 4 OHM, Miller & Kreisel (M&K) 1" Tweeter - VIFA - Made in Denmark
Mfg: Vifa - Miller & Kreisel (M&K)
P/N: P813835

Z11MK 4 OHM, Miller & Kreisel (M&K) 1" Tweeter - VIFA - Made in Denmark.

Also known as part #'s:

* P813835
* 17250
* Z11MK 4 OHM


Z11MK 4 OHM, Miller & Kreisel (M&K) 1" Tweeter - VIFA - Made in Denmark


Z16 M&K TV 8 OHM, Miller & Kreisel 1" Tweeter - VIFA - Made in Denmark
Mfg: Miller & Kreisel (M&K) - VIFA
P/N: P814837

Z16 M&K TV 8 OHM, Miller & Kreisel 1" Tweeter - VIFA - Made in Denmark.

Also known as part #'s:

* P811223
* 17390
* Z16 M&K TV 8 OHM


Z16 M&K TV 8 OHM, Miller & Kreisel 1" Tweeter - VIFA - Made in Denmark

That is the selection I can find.

It is not possible for a crossover work the same with units of different impedance.

 

[Jack Hammer]

TLS Guy, I'm glad you're helping out here. As I stated, I know extemely little about speaker/crossover design and what works with what and how. I'm posting the pics hoping someone else will know what to look for.

I'm writing out the marking on the components in case the pics get deleted at some point.
ELYTONE 52uF+/-10% 50V NP
ELYTONE 30uF+/-10% 50V NP 85*C
ELYTONE 24uF+/-10% 50V NP
ELYTONE 12uF+/-10% 50V NP 85*C
5W 1.7ohm JF
5W 2ohm JF
5W 0.5ohm JF
5W 1.2ohm JF


If you look at the other pic I posted of the entire crossover you should be able to see which of these shots is where.

 

[Techlord]

That is the selection I can find.

It is not possible for a crossover work the same with units of different impedance.

Try telling that to MK Sound, you saw the pictures that Jack Hammer posted right? I will confirm this when I get home tomorrow to see what ohm rating my individual speakers are in my 750 LCR's.

TLS Guy, I'm glad you're helping out here. As I stated, I know extemely little about speaker/crossover design and what works with what and how. I'm posting the pics hoping someone else will know what to look for.

If you look at the other pic I posted of the entire crossover you should be able to see which of these shots is where.

Excellent, we shall see once and for all on Monday is they are the same in every regards!

Regards,
Techlord.

 

[Jack Hammer]

Try telling that to MK Sound, you saw the pictures that Jack Hammer posted right? I will confirm this when I get home tomorrow to see what ohm rating my individual speakers are in my 750 LCR's.

Regards,
Techlord.

I believe he may have been refering to swapping an 8ohm tweeter for a 4ohm tweeter. IIRC, two 8ohm woofers would be a 4ohm load. May explain the 4ohm tweeter with 8ohm woofers.

I'm not really in the mood to take one of my S150's apart, but if I recall they use a similar setup.

 

[Jack Hammer]

I accidentally deleted the pics I put up of the tweeter, woofer, and crossover. I'm reposting them here.

 

[abboudc]

Yes, those are from the same speaker. Both woofers are 8ohm and the tweeter is 4ohm. IIRC, that's how most my M&K speakers are.

The 850's are not THX certified. I spoke to Ken at M&K before I bought them and he told me they were essentially the same speakers but the 850's had the better tweeter. He also said they didn't send them out for THX certification because the time and cost involved wasn't worth it.

Techlord, in case you are not aware the original M&K went bankrupt a few years ago and closed shop. Their inventory was liquedated, which is where most of the surplus and eBay items come from (some of these items were fine, others were QC rejects). The rights to the name and certain product lines were purchased by foreign investors who restarted ~a year later as MKSound. I understand some of the old employees were brought on board in some capacities, but I don't really know/recall the details. I have no idea how related the new speaker lines are to the original speaker lines and if they used the original designs, crossovers, and components or if new/modified ones are used. I also have no idea either way if the QC is held to the same stringent standards Ken Kreisel had.

Be careful of parts on ebay and the like as there are TONS of counterfeit M&K parts floating around. I wouldn't buy any except from M&K itself, unless you trust the source 100%.

As for Ken's QC standards...i doubt anyone would be willing to do what M&K did when he was involved. Every single speaker was tested off the line, which is very expensive to do.

 

[Techlord]

I believe he may have been refering to swapping an 8ohm tweeter for a 4ohm tweeter. IIRC, two 8ohm woofers would be a 4ohm load. May explain the 4ohm tweeter with 8ohm woofers.

I'm not really in the mood to take one of my S150's apart, but if I recall they use a similar setup.

I would never change speakers with different ohm ratings, I would think to 8ohm speakers paired together would be 16ohms. Perhaps I will learn something today after all.

Regards,
Techlord.

 

[Techlord]

Be careful of parts on ebay and the like as there are TONS of counterfeit M&K parts floating around. I wouldn't buy any except from M&K itself, unless you trust the source 100%.

As for Ken's QC standards...i doubt anyone would be willing to do what M&K did when he was involved. Every single speaker was tested off the line, which is very expensive to do.

I did have the option of buying my SB-1250 MK Sound 250W sub amplifier from two other sources for $139.99, but chose to buy it from MK Sound directly for $222.50 to avoid all of the counterfeit M&K crap out there! I also went ahead and bought the matching MK 4ohm woofer even though my 9 year old woofer worked just fine, I bought my Cherry M&K cabinet (dimensions 18" x 15 1/2 x 17 1/4) at Deep Surplus and was able to walk around and see the crates of M&K product still sitting there!

I just happened to walk by a box filled with 750 THX crossovers, it was like being in a candy store. If Dave at Deep Surplus hadn't allowed me a walkthrough I would not have bought the piano gloss black SUR55T (or 95T) surround speaker cabinets for $30 dollars factory sealed for the last 9 years. Do you guys think everything Deep Surplus has is the real mccoy?

Regards,
Techlord.

 

[TLS Guy]

I would never change speakers with different ohm ratings, I would think to 8ohm speakers paired together would be 16ohms. Perhaps I will learn something today after all.

Regards,
Techlord.

Two 8 ohm speakers in parallel is 4 ohms. Two 8 ohm speakers in series is 16 ohms. It is better to avoid series working. So likely the impedance is four ohms.

The impedance of an inductor halves as you halve the inductance and the reverse for a cap. So obviously to keep cross over frequency constant when changing the impedance of a driver, you have to make appropriate changes to the component values. If M & K tell you anything different, they are just plain wrong.

 

[Techlord]

TLS Guy, I'm glad you're helping out here. As I stated, I know extemely little about speaker/crossover design and what works with what and how. I'm posting the pics hoping someone else will know what to look for.

I'm writing out the marking on the components in case the pics get deleted at some point.
ELYTONE 52uF+/-10% 50V NP
ELYTONE 30uF+/-10% 50V NP 85*C[/COLOR]
ELYTONE 24uF+/-10% 50V NP
ELYTONE 12uF+/-10% 50V NP 85*C
5W 1.7ohm JF
5W 2ohm JF
5W 0.5ohm JF
5W 1.2ohm JF


If you look at the other pic I posted of the entire crossover you should be able to see which of these shots is where.

There is a difference in the values, it does seem every time there's a driver change (the tweeter) there's also a value change, note red letters indicates a change in values between Jack Hammer crossovers and mine! How this changes the sound is another story, perhaps the newer tweeters will stay with-in a certain frequency range similar to my older Z11 tweeters? Lets say I try using two of the new tweeters for my L/R speakers to give them a test run, will I notice distortion or will I not hear the difference in sound quality?

ELYTONE 44uF+/-10% 50V NP
ELYTONE 36uF+/-10% 50V NP 85*C
ELYTONE 24uF+/-10% 50V NP
ELYTONE 12uF+/-10% 50V NP 85*C
5W 1.2ohm JB
5W 2 ohm JB
5W 1 ohm JF
5W 1.2ohm JB

 

[Techlord]

Here's some pictures of my 750 speakers, notice the woofers round plastic mount instead of the usual metal mounting system! Notice the plastic mounting ring and how flush the 8ohm woofers are to the speaker cabinet, nice and clean look to them! If I ever blow a woofer there's NO replacement woofer that would fit since the speaker mounting is recessed, unlike any MK Sound speaker we know of! If I ever blew a woofer I would be forced to buy an entire 750 LCR speaker to have a complete system again, if it came to that I would just buy the new 950 LCR system up front while I would convert my piano gloss black cabinets that can house the 950 95T Tripoles speakers!

Regards,
Techlord.