monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
Have you listened to Adele's live at the Royal Albert Hall?
I have not. I'll have to listen to it!

http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=16007

Is there something wrong with me? :eek: :D
Nope. Truth be told, you're probably just used to it. I can't tell the difference. Generally, I listen to random music on my BS-22 (because they are in the bedroom with the PC) and listen to good recordings on the Phils (in the living room). The Phils are much less forgiving, so I might be able to hear it on them. I bet if we had A/B comparisons of the same song we could hear it. It's probably not that we CAN'T hear it, but that we don't know what to listen for.


So it's not crackling, popping, static, hissing sound? Just not as smooth?
Dynamic Range Compression (In my experience) makes recordings sound "lifeless". The instruments tend not to be as "clear". A good example is the Adele song I was talking about earlier. The Piano sounds OK in the beginning, not like a Krall song, but OK. Once she starts singing, the piano is drowned away (because her voice is so loud in comparison). In a Krall song, the Piano and her voice seem to "play well together".

As for clipping:

I'd imagine amp clipping to sound pretty rough because (depending on how hard you drive the amp past its happy place) a good amount of the waveform could be clipped. That would no doubt be noticeable.

Clipping as far as signal processing goes probably depends on where, and how badly, the track is clipping. If my track has a mid DR and clips during a loud (compared to the rest of the recording) trumpet solo, I'm probably gonna notice something sounds off about that trumpet. That's because part of the trumpet's info is missing and because if the trumpet is loud, the clipping will be worse; more of the waveform will be gone. If my track has a really low DR and clips during that trumpet solo, I'm probably not going to notice the clipping so much as I will the compression. My logic is that when the track is that compressed, the trumpet won't sound very realistic and the clipping will just add to an already bad situation.

This is just an educated guess. :D

monk are you using the DR plugin in foobar2000 for these readings ? just wondering
For Wav and MP3 I use the TT DR Meter 1.4.

For FLAC I use the FooBar plugin. :D
 
Last edited:
monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
Demo CD

Statistics for: 01-Track 1
Number of samples: 7473024
Duration: 2:36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Left Right

Peak Value: 0.00 dB --- 0.00 dB
Avg RMS: -15.64 dB --- -16.51 dB
DR channel: 11.53 dB --- 12.35 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Official DR Value: DR12



Statistics for: 01-Track 2
Number of samples: 9961344
Duration: 3:28
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Left Right

Peak Value: 0.00 dB --- 0.00 dB
Avg RMS: -12.62 dB --- -13.07 dB
DR channel: 9.78 dB --- 9.83 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Official DR Value: DR10



Statistics for: 02-Track 3
Number of samples: 3889152
Duration: 1:21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Left Right

Peak Value: 0.00 dB --- 0.00 dB
Avg RMS: -11.18 dB --- -11.18 dB
DR channel: 8.66 dB --- 8.92 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Official DR Value: DR9



Statistics for: 03-Track 4
Number of samples: 5298048
Duration: 1:50
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Left Right

Peak Value: -0.01 dB --- -0.06 dB
Avg RMS: -25.15 dB --- -23.30 dB
DR channel: 20.71 dB --- 18.77 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Official DR Value: DR20




Statistics for: 04-Track 5
Number of samples: 3211776
Duration: 1:07
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Left Right

Peak Value: -0.30 dB --- -0.27 dB
Avg RMS: -10.80 dB --- -10.99 dB
DR channel: 5.30 dB --- 5.39 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Official DR Value: DR5




Statistics for: 05-Track 6
Number of samples: 7384320
Duration: 2:34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Left Right

Peak Value: 0.00 dB --- 0.00 dB
Avg RMS: -15.44 dB --- -16.13 dB
DR channel: 11.17 dB --- 11.97 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Official DR Value: DR12




Statistics for: 06-Track 7
Number of samples: 4906368
Duration: 1:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Left Right

Peak Value: -0.15 dB --- -0.13 dB
Avg RMS: -20.96 dB --- -20.79 dB
DR channel: 17.31 dB --- 16.17 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Official DR Value: DR17




Statistics for: 07-Track 8
Number of samples: 2088576
Duration: 0:44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Left Right

Peak Value: -3.87 dB --- -3.96 dB
Avg RMS: -17.62 dB --- -17.08 dB
DR channel: 11.94 dB --- 10.98 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Official DR Value: DR11



Statistics for: 08-Track 9
Number of samples: 4272768
Duration: 1:29
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Left Right

Peak Value: 0.00 dB --- 0.00 dB
Avg RMS: -13.85 dB --- -14.00 dB
DR channel: 11.47 dB --- 11.64 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Official DR Value: DR12




Statistics for: 09-Track 10
Number of samples: 5958144
Duration: 2:04
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Left Right

Peak Value: -0.74 dB --- -1.56 dB
Avg RMS: -19.06 dB --- -19.19 dB
DR channel: 14.40 dB --- 13.53 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Official DR Value: DR14




Statistics for: 10-Track 11
Number of samples: 2221056
Duration: 0:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Left Right

Peak Value: -0.10 dB --- 0.00 dB
Avg RMS: -17.75 dB --- -16.18 dB
DR channel: 11.81 dB --- 10.53 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Official DR Value: DR11




Statistics for: 11-Track 12
Number of samples: 5654016
Duration: 1:58
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Left Right

Peak Value: 0.00 dB --- 0.00 dB
Avg RMS: -17.68 dB --- -18.32 dB
DR channel: 14.50 dB --- 14.70 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Official DR Value: DR15




Statistics for: 12-Track 13
Number of samples: 5378688
Duration: 1:52
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Left Right

Peak Value: 0.00 dB --- 0.00 dB
Avg RMS: -12.04 dB --- -12.12 dB
DR channel: 9.82 dB --- 9.67 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Official DR Value: DR10




Statistics for: 13-Track 14
Number of samples: 5012352
Duration: 1:44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Left Right

Peak Value: -0.78 dB --- -0.88 dB
Avg RMS: -18.95 dB --- -18.99 dB
DR channel: 14.93 dB --- 14.83 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Official DR Value: DR15




Statistics for: 14-Track 15
Number of samples: 7749504
Duration: 2:41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Left Right

Peak Value: 0.00 dB --- -0.08 dB
Avg RMS: -15.51 dB --- -15.88 dB
DR channel: 11.13 dB --- 11.27 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Official DR Value: DR11




Statistics for: 15-Track 16
Number of samples: 16665984
Duration: 5:47
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Left Right

Peak Value: -0.12 dB --- 0.00 dB
Avg RMS: -12.46 dB --- -11.55 dB
DR channel: 9.97 dB --- 9.30 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Official DR Value: DR10




Statistics for: 16-Track 17
Number of samples: 7962624
Duration: 2:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Left Right

Peak Value: 0.00 dB --- 0.00 dB
Avg RMS: -13.53 dB --- -14.66 dB
DR channel: 11.62 dB --- 12.73 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Official DR Value: DR12
 
monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
This was using the FooBar Plugin. "-0.00" could be clipping or it could be truly -0.00. Either way, the people who made TT DR Meter recommend the track have at least .30 or "lower" (bigger number) peak.

I used the tracks ADTG sent me long ago when my Phil 2's were still being made. Hopefully he still has the track list. : )
 
monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
I did some deep googling and found someone mentioned that she had trouble with her vocal cord but now I wonder if the distortion in fact had something to do with the mastering/recording techniques as I initial thought.
Statistics for: 16-Someone Like You
Number of samples: 12992256
Duration: 4:55
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Left Right

Peak Value: -0.36 dB --- -0.33 dB
Avg RMS: -11.90 dB --- -11.54 dB
DR channel: 9.01 dB --- 8.94 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Official DR Value: DR9

This was from her "Live..." Album.
 
monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
So most of those tracks have a DR10 or higher, which means a lot of DRC and therefore not as "good" as the track that has a DR5?
Oh I see where you have confusion now.

So the meter show's three things. It shows the Dynamic Range of the recording, the peak, and the RMS volume of the recording.

The DR is the difference between the loudest and quietest point.

The Peak shows the loudest point

The RMS is the average volume.

The higher the Dynamic Range, the "better". At the same time, a higher peak is "better". The program recommends .30 or higher for the peak. If the number is any smaller than .30, the track doesn't have enough headroom and is close to clipping.

The LOWER the Dynamic Range, the MORE Dynamic Range Compression there is. DRC is just making the dynamic range smaller. So an Adele song with 5DR has a lot more DRC than a Krall song with 16DR. :D

Heck, every song on this demo disc sound sounds great to me.
LOOOL
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
So only 5 of the Demo tracks are considered GOOD, with a DR of at least 13 or more.

12 of the demo tracks have a DR of 12 or worse, which is NOT good.
 
monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
So only 5 of the Demo tracks are considered GOOD, with a DR of at least 13 or more.

12 of the demo tracks have a DR of 12 or worse, which is NOT good.
You could say that. I don't have a number I consider "good", it really depends on the song/genre. For Jazz I'd say 12 is probably low. For Scremo that's going to be consistently super loud anyway; that's just the nature of the genre. As long as it isn't clipping i'd probably be ok with a DR of like 8 for Scremo.

Using DR to indicate quality is difficult and probably not the best way to gauge quality. It's really an indicator of whether the recording has the potential to be good. Think about it this way:

In the 80's DRC wasn't very big. The loudness war was nonexistent or just starting, yet every recording did not sound amazing. Little DR is just another way of screwing up a track; a lot of DR does not guarantee a good track.
 
monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
This is the waveform of "Save Me":



This is the same waveform with clipping being showed:



This is the waveform of "Fly Me To the Moon" using the same scale:

 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Statistics for: 16-Someone Like You
Number of samples: 12992256
Duration: 4:55
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Left Right

Peak Value: -0.36 dB --- -0.33 dB
Avg RMS: -11.90 dB --- -11.54 dB
DR channel: 9.01 dB --- 8.94 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Official DR Value: DR9

This was from her "Live..." Album.
I just played that track and can confirm that my VU meters showed similar DR and peaks. Then I played some Krall ones randomly and they did have much better DR. So far I have only observed one SACD quickly but will do more this weekend.
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
***Regardless, obviously the phase plug itself does not move but the woofer moves, so in relative sense you will see the tangerine waveguide moving. It's like driving through heavy snow fall, one could think one's car is moving on its own when it is not. This does not happen so much with other speaker and I think it is the color of the waveguide and the woofer cone that might have amplified such effect, and that is a major distraction to me.
Thanks for the clarification. And interesting thoughts about the IMO poorly-chosen cone color and lack of grill causing the issue. Likely spot-on, too.

Does the R-Series have the same effect on you with the grill off? I've not seen it on the Q100's, but honestly I see far enough away that my highly power-assisted eyes wouldn't likely pick up on such a thing anyway.

That's because it uses the second most sophisticated UniQ. It's UniQ is second only to the Blade itself.
Jack Oclee-Brown, who designed the Blade, described the differences between the Q100/X300A, R100, and LS50 drivers in a diyaudio thread. To paraphrase (because I'm too lazy to look up the thread)
Q100/X300D: starting block
R100: different cone (material, ridges), copper caps on mid and tweeter.
LS50: R100 but with different surround for slightly improved upper mids compared and different voicecoil. Also, some changes to the tweeter magnet IIRC.

That said, the one in the R300 and up is actually much closer to the Blade one. Remember that the Q100/X300D, R100, and LS50 all use a midwoofer. The Blade and the bigger R's have a dedicated midrange.


Impressive.

Interesting how the Muon, Blade, and Reference are made in England, yet the LS50 is made in China.

I figured the flagship speakers get to be made in England. :D

So the LS is about 5 times cheaper than the $6,000 201/2, is made in China, yet it has a better UniQ than even the $20,000 207/2. :D

Will the LS50 measure better than the 201/2 and 207/2 and sound better too? :D
KEF's marketing placement of these speakers is odd, but not unheard of for them.

Back in the day when they had the Reference line with bandpass woofers, they had a separate "signature" line or something like that above the reference line, with a big speaker I don't remember...and their latest iteration of the LS3/5a. It cost, IIRC, less than the smallest Reference (Reference One) but was priced lower than it.

The References, while excellent in every respect, are growing a bit long in the tooth. They don't fit KEF's current aesthetic, and their midrange Uni-Q hasn't been updated with their modern phase plug. I wonder what KEF will do with the line.

As for manufacture, keep in mind that the References are really just assembled in the UK. All of KEF's drivers are made in China, and I suspect the crossover parts are, too.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
As for manufacture, keep in mind that the References are really just assembled in the UK. All of KEF's drivers are made in China, and I suspect the crossover parts are, too.
there is so much manufactured in China these days, from the internal components, to the screws, nuts, wire, cable, rubber components and who knows what else. Stuff made in China is becoming the norm. As long as something sounds good, good build quality, has a good warranty and the price is right I really don't care.
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
there is so much manufactured in China these days, from the internal components, to the screws, nuts, wire, cable, rubber components and who knows what else. Stuff made in China is becoming the norm. As long as something sounds good, good build quality, has a good warranty and the price is right I really don't care.
Oh, me either. I think Ricardo was right. :)

Just pointing out that the only major difference here between "Made in England" and "Made in China" is the cabinet.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Oh, me either. I think Ricardo was right. :)

Just pointing out that the only major difference here between "Made in England" and "Made in China" is the cabinet.
Man, you just sadden me for about 15 minutes there. :D

I knew my TADs were made in China about 100%, but I thought my KEF 201/2s were completely made in England - drivers, XO, cabinets, well, I don't care about the nuts and wires. :D

Well, at least they were put together in England using English wood. :D
 
monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
:D This is my 10 characters.

Hi Pallas,

The drivers from the Q series, R series and LS50 all share a common lineage. The Q were the first to be developed in around 2010 as a concerted effort to get some of the features of the Concept Blade drivers into affordable loudspeakers. Over the years following the launch of the current Q range we have refined and tweaked the drivers resulting in those used in the R and LS50 drivers.

A quick summary:

There are 5.25, 6.5 and 8inch Uni-Q driver in the Q range. This discussion is focused on the 5.25inch which is used on the Q100 and Q500.

The driver in the R100 is based on the Q100 driver but has a different cone (which you can identify the driver by from the font) and some tweaks to the tweeter and midrange magnet systems to reduce the distortion (addition of shorting rings and a copper cap).

The LS50 driver is a special edition of the R100 driver with a different voice coil spec (to give a slightly different bass response in the system). The surround is also different and gives a slightly tidier upper MF response. We slightly adjusted the geometry around the tweeter magnet OD, also to improve the MF response.

All the best, Jack.
 
monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
What do you guys think of Steve Guttenberg from Cnet and Stereophile?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Got my new 12" Wood Technology stands for TAD









Amazing thing is, rasing the speakers by 4" and placing them on stands (instead of foams) increased the loudness by 1.0dB.

The Channel Level Trim of the TAD is now identical to the B&W 802D2.
 
Last edited:
monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
You officially have too many speakers in one room.

I forbid you from buying another speaker until you get at least 4 more rooms! :cool: :D :p ;)

The Orion, Phil, and Salon 2 should be in their own large rooms!! :D :D
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top