Switching from 2 to 3 subs

[NorCalRP]

@shadyJ , I read your review on the VTF-2 MK5. Do you think these would be a good match for my VTF-3 MK4, given the step up in performance from MK4 to MK5 in both the 2 and the 3?

 

[shadyJ]

@shadyJ , I read your review on the VTF-2 MK5. Do you think these would be a good match for my VTF-3 MK4, given the step up in performance from MK4 to MK5 in both the 2 and the 3?

Yeah, the VTF-2 mk5 would be a good match. The VTF-3 mk4 would have a bit deeper extension and a bit more extreme deep bass output from maybe 25 to 16 Hz, but otherwise they will be very much alike.

 

[NorCalRP]

Well, well, well... a reconciliation looks to be in the works, which would keep me in the same place. The room my gear is in is about 1700ft³. It's got me thinking about the need for a 3rd sub.

The room is 16'x12'. The screen is on the narrow wall. As you can see, that open area is definitely not ideal. My SVS is under and to the left of the screen, which is barely centered on that wall. The HSU is on the left of the bed, looking towards the window with the driver facing the bed. There's definitely some nulls.

I'm thinking seriously about putting the bed on the wall next to the doors and the TV on the long wall with those little shelves. I think it would improve my imaging from my front sound stage as my center and right currently have no wall behind them. It would also put me closer to what is going to become a 65" OLED or QLED, making movies more immersive.

This all leads to sub placement. I see subs either inside or outside of the fronts. I strongly suspect this would provide me better response than my current setup. Also, I think I'd sell my subs in favor of duals HSU's. If I go with the VTF-2 MK5's my net cost would probably be right around $400 as I'm confident I could get $700 for my existing subs.

Thoughts?

 

[shadyJ]

Acoustically speaking, I think your present setup is about as good as you can hope for in that room however, it looks to be subpar for video. Your plans would improve the video experience, but I am guessing would not improve the audio experience, however if you took care in speaker placement, I don't think it would be a serious degradation of the audio either. As for two VTF-2 mk5s, I don't think that would be a huge improvement over what you have now, at least as a replacement. It would only be a small step up. But the question here is are you really running those subs so hard in such a small room that you need an upgrade? If so, I would be looking at 15" subs.

 

[NorCalRP]

Acoustically speaking, I think your present setup is about as good as you can hope for in that room however, it looks to be subpar for video. Your plans would improve the video experience, but I am guessing would not improve the audio experience, however if you took care in speaker placement, I don't think it would be a serious degradation of the audio either. As for two VTF-2 mk5s, I don't think that would be a huge improvement over what you have now, at least as a replacement. It would only be a small step up. But the question here is are you really running those subs so hard in such a small room that you need an upgrade? If so, I would be looking at 15" subs.

So not a big concern with the front soundstage? I do want to work on sub placement regardless to see how I can improve the imaging (is that the correct term?). I'm a little intimidated by REW, but I feel like I need to go there to really optimize things. Also planning on raising my surrounds- there on stands at ear level producing what I'd call outsized sound. I have 16" cubes I can attach the stands to. I'd love to go omnidirectional wall mounts, but not sure if I'd get the permission (it's just a couple of dang holes)

 

[shadyJ]

So not a big concern with the front soundstage? I do want to work on sub placement regardless to see how I can improve the imaging (is that the correct term?). I'm a little intimidated by REW, but I feel like I need to go there to really optimize things. Also planning on raising my surrounds- there on stands at ear level producing what I'd call outsized sound. I have 16" cubes I can attach the stands to. I'd love to go omnidirectional wall mounts, but not sure if I'd get the permission (it's just a couple of dang holes)

The soundstage will have more to do with your listening position vs your speakers. Subwoofer frequency bands do not have any affect on imaging unless one of the subs is localizing itself and weighing the soundstage in its direction.

One way tho improve your soundstage is to move the speakers away from your walls. You will have strong early reflections since your front right and left speakers are so close to the sidewalls (I actually didn't notice that before). That isn't really a good thing. Try to listen to your speakers in a spot that puts you equidistant from them. Also your room is rather bare with lots of hard surfaces. You might thing about putting more soft things in there, these act as absorptive elements. The bed certainly helps there.

 

[NorCalRP]

I

If it was me If switch that list around if it was me
1 subs
2 floor standard
3 and
4 surrounds for atmos
5 then the tv
But that's just me Is want bulk of money on the speakers first. But it's not wrong how your going about it if your happy going that route go for it bro well cheer you on the whole way

I've made a TERRIBLE MISTAKE!!! My work took me close to a high end shop. Today was the first day in my 6 weeks down here that I've been able to go in. I wanted to listen to the Paradigm Premier 800F towers. They sounded great... until I asked that the Goldenear Triton 5's be hooked up so I could A/B them. Holy poop. They have pretty much the EXACT sound I've been looking for. I've gotta get em! And I'm going to have to get a center to go with them! It's gonna set me back $3k, and I'm gonna dump another $2k on a TV. I'm gonna roll with my current subs for now, and look at everything else next year. Oh Lord, what a glorious roller coaster of addiction this hobby is!!!

 

[shadyJ]

Keep in mind that those speakers are not going to have the same sound in your room as they do in the demo shop. Your room has dramatically different acoustic conditions.

 

[NorCalRP]

Keep in mind that those speakers are not going to have the same sound in your room as they do in the demo shop. Your room has dramatically different acoustic conditions.

Oh definitely!

 

[NorCalRP]

Keep in mind that those speakers are not going to have the same sound in your room as they do in the demo shop. Your room has dramatically different acoustic conditions.

I've been wanting towers for some time to get more output down to my 80hz crossover point. The mids and highs between the two brands are night and day

 

[shadyJ]

I've been wanting towers for some time to get more output down to my 80hz crossover point. The mids and highs between the two brands are night and day

I don't think I have heard the Triton 5s but I have heard most of the other Triton tower speakers. I have also heard the 800Fs. I think they are all fine speakers. They will have different dispersion patterns that will play differently in different rooms. The Paradigms will probably have a somewhat more narrow dispersion. I remember listening to some Triton 1s and I could tell that the treble was a tad elevated but not annoyingly so.

 

[tmurnin]

That is essentially correct. Bipoles are better at providing an ambient effect. They are from an era when surround effects sounds were just vague effects cues and atmosphere. Today's sound mixes deal with very localized sound from every direction. The surround sound stage is a lot more precise and needs speakers that can image well to reproduce these effects.

I don’t think that’s necessarily the case. Dipoles are definitely not recommended and I think monopoles are best, but bipoles are compatible with Atmos according to Dolby and if you can’t locate your surrounds optimally due to room configuration, bipoles might be the best option you have.

 

[Danzilla31]

Oh definitely!

At the Bjorn's that I shop at all the time I have a great working relationship with my sales guy. The fact I'm in there all the time has nothing to do with it I'm sure it's my charming personality. Lol. But anything I buy I have 30 days to demo at home sometimes he'll give me longer. Make sure they let you demo those at home and have a return policy. Like Shady says how they sound in your home could change and you need to be sure these are the speakers for your home. Otherwise they are amazing spekers and were the runner ups to the SVS Primes and Ultra I went with. Congrats because those triton 5's are nice speakers especially with a sub or 2 or 3 or 4 lol to go with em

 

[snakeeyes]

I don’t think that’s necessarily the case. Dipoles are definitely not recommended and I think monopoles are best, but bipoles are compatible with Atmos according to Dolby and if you can’t locate your surrounds optimally due to room configuration, bipoles might be the best option you have.

So what is the science here? I’m stuck with bipoles for a while. I’m guessing they will be fine short term at least. I’ve always liked Bipoles in 5.1.

 

[Danzilla31]

I

I've made a TERRIBLE MISTAKE!!! My work took me close to a high end shop. Today was the first day in my 6 weeks down here that I've been able to go in. I wanted to listen to the Paradigm Premier 800F towers. They sounded great... until I asked that the Goldenear Triton 5's be hooked up so I could A/B them. Holy poop. They have pretty much the EXACT sound I've been looking for. I've gotta get em! And I'm going to have to get a center to go with them! It's gonna set me back $3k, and I'm gonna dump another $2k on a TV. I'm gonna roll with my current subs for now, and look at everything else next year. Oh Lord, what a glorious roller coaster of addiction this hobby is!!!

What a glorious roller coaster it is!

 

[shadyJ]

So what is the science here? I’m stuck with bipoles for a while. I’m guessing they will be fine short term at least. I’ve always liked Bipoles in 5.1.

Bipoles are made for a more diffuse sound by spraying a lot of sound off axis thereby using acoustic reflections in listening. Good for spacious ambience because so much of the sound is coming from all angles, but bad for localization since, again, so much of the sound is coming from all angles. Surround formats are moving toward very precisely localized surround sound cues- from 7.1 and now to object oriented systems like Atmos and DTS:X. Diffuse surround sound is more of a holdover from the early days of commercial cinema surround sound. I would argue it went obsolete when 7.1 mixes started to become common. Dolby advises Atmos users to use monopoles for all speakers, for good reason: Bipoles can not image nearly as well as monopoles. Better imaging comes from a greater direct sound vs reflected sound ratio.

 

[snakeeyes]

Bipoles are made for a more diffuse sound by spraying a lot of sound off axis thereby using acoustic reflections in listening. Good for spacious ambience because so much of the sound is coming from all angles, but bad for localization since, again, so much of the sound is coming from all angles. Surround formats are moving toward very precisely localized surround sound cues- from 7.1 and now to object oriented systems like Atmos and DTS:X. Diffuse surround sound is more of a holdover from the early days of commercial cinema surround sound. I would argue it went obsolete when 7.1 mixes started to become common. Dolby advises Atmos users to use monopoles for all speakers, for good reason: Bipoles can not image nearly as well as monopoles. Better imaging comes from a greater direct sound vs reflected sound ratio.

Ok makes sense.

 

[snakeeyes]

Bipoles are made for a more diffuse sound by spraying a lot of sound off axis thereby using acoustic reflections in listening. Good for spacious ambience because so much of the sound is coming from all angles, but bad for localization since, again, so much of the sound is coming from all angles. Surround formats are moving toward very precisely localized surround sound cues- from 7.1 and now to object oriented systems like Atmos and DTS:X. Diffuse surround sound is more of a holdover from the early days of commercial cinema surround sound. I would argue it went obsolete when 7.1 mixes started to become common. Dolby advises Atmos users to use monopoles for all speakers, for good reason: Bipoles can not image nearly as well as monopoles. Better imaging comes from a greater direct sound vs reflected sound ratio.

You use are making me want to wire 7.1 up as well as 5.1.4. My Yamaha 2060 supports that actually. I can upgrade to a 7.1.4 AVR later on.

 

[NorCalRP]

I don't think I have heard the Triton 5s but I have heard most of the other Triton tower speakers. I have also heard the 800Fs. I think they are all fine speakers. They will have different dispersion patterns that will play differently in different rooms. The Paradigms will probably have a somewhat more narrow dispersion. I remember listening to some Triton 1s and I could tell that the treble was a tad elevated but not annoyingly so.

Yeah, the Tritons definitely had a wider soundstage. What caught my attention with them was the tone of the Fender Rhodes, as well as the bass guitar sounding more true to the recording. The mids and upper mids were more forward and the highs were crisp, but didn't display sibilance. I think your comment about early reflections is really poignant. I'm going to replace the table in the pics I posted with something more narrow that will enable me to bring the towers in from the wall. I also need to figure out a way to get some acoustic treatments in there without them being readily visible- those pieces of art that are acoustic treatments are a little too pricey for me. This new direction I'm planning on going is really going to compel me to work on proper sub placement. I'm looking forward to all of this as I love learning about it all!

 

[tmurnin]

So what is the science here? I’m stuck with bipoles for a while. I’m guessing they will be fine short term at least. I’ve always liked Bipoles in 5.1.

I like my bipoles quite a bit as well, and haven’t noticed any issue since converting to a 5.1.4 Atmos system. I used this article as my reference on Atmos. https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/surround-speaker-dipole-vs-bipole