SVS SB12-Plus Subwoofer Review

[Nick250]

. It just seems that there could be a more definitive answer (within reason) as to whether or not two are better than one After all, there may be some folks out there that think listening to music out of one speaker in mono is still superior to two in stereo

There is no definitive setup in speakers and subs because the combination of speakers, room acoustics, subs and intended use will be different it each case.

My personal opinion is that most people are better off with just one sub, as suggested by SVS. Two subs require a bigger commitment in time, budget and expertise to get it right.

Nick

 

[Matt34]

There is no definitive setup in speakers and subs because the combination of speakers, room acoustics, subs and intended use will be different it each case.

My personal opinion is that most people are better off with just one sub, as suggested by SVS. Two subs require a bigger commitment in time, budget and expertise to get it right.

Nick

We aren't "most people" though. Most people wouldn't need a HSU VTF-3 in a 13x15' room. Myself on the other hand, thinks I need two of them.

 

[gene]

My personal opinion is that most people are better off with just one sub, as suggested by SVS. Two subs require a bigger commitment in time, budget and expertise to get it right.

I am glad that is just your opinion and NOT a fact In almost all cases you are better off with 2 subs instead of one for better modal control. Its not as hard as you think to setup 2 subs, especially if you place them equidistant from the listening area starting with 1/4 width of the room on the left and right side of the frontwall.

 

[Nick250]

Matt and Gene I may not have explained myself well in the above post. I am in agreement with you. I was targeting my comments towards the average joe who is outside of the of the audio community. He has not learned about how to treat sound in his listening room and how having two subs might well benefit him. I suspect most sub owners fall into that category. They have gone to CC, BB or Bose, picked out a system, taken it home and they are done with it. My view is that he is better off with one sub unless he wants "louder" If he wants to really get into it and learn all about audio and improve the sound he hears, that is different, then he certainly should consider two subs as one of his options to improve the sound quality in his listening room.

Regards, Nick

 

[Audioholics]

I was targeting my comments towards the average joe who is outside of the of the audio community.

It's all good... What we've actually learned is that simply having two subs in a room almost always improves the sound... So we're recommending this for average Joe's as well. Basically 2 x $500 is almost always better than 1 x $1000 given the often deleterious effects of standing waves.

There are CERTAINLY exceptions and we are, of course, talking about getting good performers in the respective price categories.

 

[Tomorrow]

It's all good... What we've actually learned is that simply having two subs in a room almost always improves the sound... So we're recommending this for average Joe's as well. Basically 2 x $500 is almost always better than 1 x $1000 given the often deleterious effects of standing waves.

There are CERTAINLY exceptions and we are, of course, talking about getting good performers in the respective price categories.

Actually, AverageJoe has 3 subs!

 

[AverageJoe]

...I was targeting my comments towards the average joe who is outside of the of the audio community

Living in rural Oregon, I'm outside of almost EVERY community.

 

[Nick250]

It's all good... What we've actually learned is that simply having two subs in a room almost always improves the sound... So we're recommending this for average Joe's as well. Basically 2 x $500 is almost always better than 1 x $1000 given the often deleterious effects of standing waves.

There are CERTAINLY exceptions and we are, of course, talking about getting good performers in the respective price categories.

Thanks for filling in the blanks Clint. I learned something new today.

Nick

 

[The Dukester]

Ohh, baby, looks like I got a good one started Thanks for all the input. While I may not be the Audioholic poster-boy, I will take the time to move my speakers around and do what I consider reasonable to get the most out of my system. Your typical B & M shopper I am not. I thought it interesting that the SVS folks had such a strong opinion about one being better in most cases than two. Gene, and Clint, you might want to talk with the powers that be up there about what their phone boys are recommending.

Although I have not tried two, I believe two will be better than one in most cases. The deal I found on the Plus/2 sure was tempting, though. Matt, hurry and get back safely! That VTF-3 Mkll is lonely! Thanks for your service!!!

 

[gene]

They recommended using the single unit hands down. I asked why and really did not get a good answer. They said that in SOME applications two actually did a better job, but you were almost always better off with one b/c of set up problems using two and that you could save money while getting the same db output by using one larger sub.
I suppose that like nearly all speaker evaluations, it's subjective. It just seems that there could be a more definitive answer (within reason) as to whether or not two are better than one After all, there may be some folks out there that think listening to music out of one speaker in mono is still superior to two in stereo

The only time 1 sub is better than 2 is if the 1 sub can produce more output than the combo of the 2 subs. In most cases, choosing two slightly smaller but competent subs is better and there is NO dispute. Its a fact. The research is well documented by the likes of Harman, THX, HAA and us.

Yes I have heard people who prefer mono to stereo, all I can say about that is ....

 

[gene]

Thanks for the review and the measurements. I'm a bit disapointed that the Room Gain Control was neither mentioned nor measured, but other then that two thumbs up from me!

Mark asked me to respond to this thread while he awaits power restoration from the latest snowstorm up in Buffalo.

The Room Gain Control (RGC) as implemented in the SB12-Plus
functions essentially as a variable slope, highpass filter.
It can be set to either Small, Medium, Large or Bypass
(Off). "Small, Medium, Large" refer to the size of the room,
of course. The website suggests 1400ft^3 as being
"Small", up to 2400ft^3 as "Medium" and anything
over 2400ft^3 as being "Large". Its a nice feature
and some endusers will no doubt find it useful in
tweaking the sub's performance in their listening
space.

The LMS graph shows the effect in dBr of the 3 settings.
Measurements were done and the resulting "Small, Medium,
Large" amplitude response plots were then normalized to the
curve taken with the RGC bypassed. Here's the graph key:

1. Dark Blue: Reference Plot
2. Purple: Large
3. Green: Medium
4. Mustard: Small

<<< See the attached graph >>>

By normalizing the response plots its easy to see exactly
how and where each setting rolls off the lowest portion
of the sub's acoustical output.

As I say, this is a nice feature that some will certainly find
useful, though in practice I think it will be used very
conservatively, if at all.

 

[freddorn]

sounds like a great little sub for an enclosed cabinet,
I may have to get one or two, but it seemed like part of the review was missing . Was there a problem with the post?

 

[theranman]

Yes, just buy more, and moRE, and MORE subs!

The following exerpt is from (June '98 Audio Magazine) Tom Nousaine, who along with Toole, is considered one of the world's top bass experts;

" There is a potential solution, however. Recall that the problem at low frequencies is one of low modal activity. Thus, putting a subwoofer in one corner of the room is a good solution. It will energize the maximum number of modes and significantly smooth bass response in many rooms. Output still will not be ideal at all locations, but it will be as smooth as possible (Fig.3).

MULTIPLE SUBWOOFERS

Is the use of multiple subwoofers to differentially excite modes and thereby smooth bass response an answer? Occasionally yes, but usually no. Modal patterns are a function of a rooms dimensions. Corner placement excites the maximum number of room modes. Any alternative placement of one or more subwoofers can only fail to energize or possibly cancel certain modes.

If the problem is insufficient density of a rooms' standing waves, cancelling or attenuating some of them seldom produces the intended result. Indeed, my research shows that placing five subwoofers at optimal speaker locations in a surround system produces significantly WORSE results than a single subwoofer in a corner (Fig.4).

Another alternative is giving each listening position its own subwoofer. Putting the listener in the direct field of the subwoofer can work well. Bear in mind, however, that modal patterns are a function of the room, so if you give yourself the subwoofer, you will make things worse at other listening positions---unless, of course, you are sitting in the corner.

Floyd Toole and other researchers have found that careful placement of two subwoofers can in some cases produce optimal results for a given listening position. However, your chances of getting optimal results without test equipment are poor. The combinations and permutations for placing two or more subwoofers in a room are virtually endless. Trial and error may take a long, long time."

The word from the master, and I agree with him. The only caveat I would put on this is that there are more and more room equalization tools coming onto the marketplace that will make the job easier as time passes. My Velodyne DD-12's have a certain amount of capability, but it's rather rudimentary. The new Audyssey Pro Room EQ system ($2500) is a LOT more sophisticated and involved.

Personally, I wouldn't go the two sub route unless I had the proper tools, time, and experience, no matter what anybody says. Sure, sub manufacturers would LOVE to sell you more subs, but it's definitely NOT a simple plop-'n-drop exercise. Take it from the experts.

And as for being able to hear stereo bass, I won't even touch that one other to say "no way".
As Lexicon's David Greisinger has aptly demonstrated, you CAN get more SPACIOUS sounding bass by placing two subs directly to your sides (90° to listening position), but you're not hearing "stereo" bass in the first and second octaves (20-80hz). In MY opinion, those who put two subs next to their two front speakers are wasting their money, but then again, it's theirs to waste.

My 2¢

 

[ggunnell]

Well, I guess I'm just lucky -- I haven't found co-located subs to have better SQ than splitting them up for years.

If you believe that reduced cone excursion reduced distortion, or that running a sub at reduced output allows greater headroom for transients, then you will want multiple cones.

Unless you want very heavy enclosures, or have room for bass horns, or both, you may very well end up with multiple subs for practical reasons over a single large sub.

Yes, you do have to use at least a Radio Shack meter and test tones to map your room and tune your set up for best results. Here it is 2006, not 1976, and we still don't have PEQ bands in out receivers or an RTA diplay output to out TV screens. Here's your receiver, and a decent set of tone controls will run you an extra $2500 gee thanks...

 

[ggunnell]

Funny you should say this. I was looking into a deal on a used Plus/2 with the new drivers. I called SVS and was asking them questions about it as well as the possibility of using two of the SB12s. They recommended using the single unit hands down. I asked why and really did not get a good answer. They said that in SOME applications two actually did a better job, but you were almost always better off with one b/c of set up problems using two and that you could save money while getting the same db output by using one larger sub.

When comparing a single sub with duals, you have to stay comparable.

I'd take the PB12-Plus/2 over two SB12s in a heartbeat if the cabinet size/weight of the /2 was not an issue

Although you have the same cone radiating area from the front of the cones,
the SB12s have zero radiating output from the back of their cones, whereas the /2 uses a ported enclosure to make use of the backwave to extend the subs response.

A closer comparison would be two single driver Plus enclosures compared to one two driver /2 enclosure -- this particular comparison would be biased in favor of the two single enclosures since it is a known fact with these particular enclosures that two single enclosures produce (correct me if I'm wrong Tom V. ) at least a couple dB more output than the double driver enclosure...

And SVS is correct about the value. Multiple SB12's just don't match up, output wise, with the same money spent on larger vented enclosure SVSs.
The SB12 is designed, as SVS states in their product description, for folks who need a small enclosure.

 

[gene]

" There is a potential solution, however. Recall that the problem at low frequencies is one of low modal activity. Thus, putting a subwoofer in one corner of the room is a good solution. It will energize the maximum number of modes and significantly smooth bass response in many rooms. Output still will not be ideal at all locations, but it will be as smooth as possible (Fig.3).

MULTIPLE SUBWOOFERS

Is the use of multiple subwoofers to differentially excite modes and thereby smooth bass response an answer? Occasionally yes, but usually no. Modal patterns are a function of a rooms dimensions. Corner placement excites the maximum number of room modes. Any alternative placement of one or more subwoofers can only fail to energize or possibly cancel certain modes.

If the problem is insufficient density of a rooms' standing waves, cancelling or attenuating some of them seldom produces the intended result. Indeed, my research shows that placing five subwoofers at optimal speaker locations in a surround system produces significantly WORSE results than a single subwoofer in a corner (Fig.4).

Another alternative is giving each listening position its own subwoofer. Putting the listener in the direct field of the subwoofer can work well. Bear in mind, however, that modal patterns are a function of the room, so if you give yourself the subwoofer, you will make things worse at other listening positions---unless, of course, you are sitting in the corner.

Floyd Toole and other researchers have found that careful placement of two subwoofers can in some cases produce optimal results for a given listening position. However, your chances of getting optimal results without test equipment are poor. The combinations and permutations for placing two or more subwoofers in a room are virtually endless. Trial and error may take a long, long time."

The word from the master, and I agree with him. The only caveat I would put on this is that there are more and more room equalization tools coming onto the marketplace that will make the job easier as time passes. My Velodyne DD-12's have a certain amount of capability, but it's rather rudimentary. The new Audyssey Pro Room EQ system ($2500) is a LOT more sophisticated and involved.

Personally, I wouldn't go the two sub route unless I had the proper tools, time, and experience, no matter what anybody says. Sure, sub manufacturers would LOVE to sell you more subs, but it's definitely NOT a simple plop-'n-drop exercise. Take it from the experts.

And as for being able to hear stereo bass, I won't even touch that one other to say "no way".
As Lexicon's David Greisinger has aptly demonstrated, you CAN get more SPACIOUS sounding bass by placing two subs directly to your sides (90° to listening position), but you're not hearing "stereo" bass in the first and second octaves (20-80hz). In MY opinion, those who put two subs next to their two front speakers are wasting their money, but then again, it's theirs to waste.

This article is grossly outdated (6 years actually) and I can assure you this is NOT how Dr. Toole thinks now about multiple subs. Harman has extensive research, one link is even provided earlier in this thread to demonstrate otherwise.

See: http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

Also see: http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/setup/loudspeakers/SubwooferplacementP1.php

As well as: http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/setup/loudspeakers/subwooferplacementguide.php

There are those from the flat earth camp whom don't progress in addressing acoustic issues with better bass management, multiple subwoofer integration, etc. However, I and other professionals have had too much success with multiple subwoofers to NOT make them a mainstay recommendation to our readers, especially those looking for consistantly good bass across the entire listening area and NOT just one seat.

 

[The Dukester]

When comparing a single sub with duals, you have to stay comparable.

I'd take the PB12-Plus/2 over two SB12s in a heartbeat if the cabinet size/weight of the /2 was not an issue

Although you have the same cone radiating area from the front of the cones,
the SB12s have zero radiating output from the back of their cones, whereas the /2 uses a ported enclosure to make use of the backwave to extend the subs response.

A closer comparison would be two single driver Plus enclosures compared to one two driver /2 enclosure -- this particular comparison would be biased in favor of the two single enclosures since it is a known fact with these particular enclosures that two single enclosures produce (correct me if I'm wrong Tom V. ) at least a couple dB more output than the double driver enclosure...

And SVS is correct about the value. Multiple SB12's just don't match up, output wise, with the same money spent on larger vented enclosure SVSs.
The SB12 is designed, as SVS states in their product description, for folks who need a small enclosure.

That's more or less what they said, but stated that they would even prefer one /2 to two of the PB12s.
Great discussion! Thanks for the info, Gene.

Duke

 

[Sheep]

I'm using dual subs right now (don't even match!) and it still gives a wider sweet spot.

With something like the SMS-1 and the MIC-5, you can make any single sub solution for for a whole theater. It's just easier and possibly less expensive to have dual or quad sub setups.

SheepStar

 

[MarkS]

Fit & Finish

Hello Adam

The unit provided me by SVSound for review was, in fact, a
prototype. The folks at SVSound were careful to point this
out, further mentioning the finish was not identical to what
the production version would feature. Frankly, I didn't find
whatever flaws/shortcomings the Maple-finished prototype
might have had in terms of fit & finish. If you go here:

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-sb12plus.cfm#

and click on the blue "Maple' link and have a look at the
enlarged image, that's pretty much what it looked like.

I would describe the wood finish as smooth to the touch
and semi-gloss/velvet in appearance.

You can see the seams between the top, bottom & sides
on the actual unit, as well as in the photo referred to
earlier. Given how they did it, though, I didn't see this
as detracting from the unit's appearence.

The faceplate is as clean as it gets, with nothing visible
but the wood finish and the driver. The grillcover mountpoints
were conspicuous by their absence. I was surprised to see
how, visually speaking, a faceplate free of said mountpoints
was much more attractive than the usual alternative.

The grillcover itself was instead held on by a bunch of
magnets buried in the inner side of the faceplate. Get
the grillcloth close enough to the faceplate and the
magnets'll grab it out of your hands and affix it tightly
to the faceplate.

On the back, the processor control panel is mounted
flush. On the bottom 4 synthetic rubber cones help
keep the sub parked permanently where you've
chosen to position it.

Mark,

Sorry if I missed it in your review, but would you please comment on the fit and finish of the exterior wood veneer? The pictures from SVS sure look nice, but I'd appreciate your opinion because you've seen one in person.

Thanks.

Adam

 

[Adam]

Mark,

Thank you for the response! Sounds like a very nice unit. I wish I was in your shoes and got a unit to demo. Well, I guess I could for 30 days.

And thanks to all of those participating in the one sub versus multiple subs discussion. I'm getting the impression that two subs can be better than one if you know what you're doing and take the time to set them up (although the debate still continues on that), but one sub is easier to place "properly" and easier for the average person to set up.

I can't wait for room EQ equipment to get better and cheaper. The Easy Button, if you will. For most people (in my opinion), room treatments and optimal speaker locations just don't figure into the picture.

Adam