SVS Prime Tower Sound Profile Question

[RickKurtis]

Good afternoon all,

Long time listener first time caller, and all that.

Current listening room is roughly, 15' x 15' with a slanting ceiling going from about 8' where the HT is up to 25 feet against the opposite wall.
AVR - Marantz 6013

I bought the pair of SVSs 6 years ago now. I went for the towers because I didn't have the knowledge, inclination or space to think about piecing out my listening experience to specialized speakers. As someone that utilized my speakers until relatively recently for general HT work, mostly non-dynamic movie/t.v viewing, I never put much thought into what these speakers really sounded like. Having really expanded the content and platforms I listen to in the last few years, however, I have found that it is difficult for me to listen to certain music on these at an above conversational volume level. At these higher volume levels I noticed that I begin to experience some audible discomfort when instruments like a slide guitar come in. It's difficult to explain, it's not a buzzing or humming, more like the type I get when listening to a mosquito; almost like a pressure discomfort without feeling any pressure. Curious, I decided to measure the frequencies that were occurring and the biggest issues came in a range between 3500 Hz - 4500 Hz.

This lead me to try these songs on other systems to see if it gave me the same sensation; it didn't. I then thought it might be a room issue, as I have moved on since originally buying them. Though the efficacy of it may be questionable, I did then use Crutchfield's speaker comparison tool; I wasn't expecting much. To my surprise, I also experienced the same sensation with their representation of the speaker. Comparing it to others, some less expensive, some much more, I didn't find other speakers giving me the same effect. For example, I compared the SVS to the ELAC UNI-FI Towers, being very happy with the bookshelfs I have in my bedroom, and did not hear the same pronounced volume at these frequencies. Just for potential clarity, my impressions of the SVS vs many of the other speakers I compared to were similar. The SVS sounded very good to me in lower/low-mid/higher frequencies, usually not noticeably any different than more expensive options, but in the mid frequencies they sound different. Not being an expert, I'm going to try my best to describe the sound difference, though please correct me if I'm using the wrong language here. The mid levels sounded brighter, more pronounced, and dare I say, thinner/tinny maybe. There didn't seem to be the same fullness or weight to the instruments and vocals in that range. In much of what I listened to this characteristic was welcome, as it perked up lower end frequencies to me. The ELAC, for example, sound muffled/heavy. Though not appreciated in some songs, it was in this mid range as I didn't get the same irritation as I do from the SVS.

Short story having turned long, I'm curious if others have any insight or experience with these towers? As I now have more time and wherewithal, I am considering other replacement options.

I really appreciate any advice and your forgiveness of my newbie descriptions and question.

 

[Pogre]

Just to be clear you mean the Prime towers and not the Prime Pinnacle towers, yes?

I've never heard the Prime towers outside of a BB Magnolia room and they were shoved in there with a bunch of other speakers and not really set up properly. I do own SVS Ultra towers tho and if anything I find them a touch laid back in the upper-mid frequencies. Not enough to break the deal, but to me they're the opposite of bright or harsh. I think the prime series share the same tweeter and they are voiced to match up well with the Ultras too.

I dunno man. Have you ever listened to the Ultra line? How long ago did you get the Prime towers? SVS is known to work with their customers and I'll bet you could talk them into letting you trade up to the Ultras (or the Pinnacles). I think even the Ultra bookshelves (with subs- didn't see you mentioning having any) will get you to the next level in sound quality pretty nicely.

 

[ryanosaur]

Listening fatigue is something that usually sets in a little lower in he Frequency range, as I understand it. Of course, you could absolutely be sensitive to something happening in that range... just personally haven't ever seen mention of it happening that high.

Acoustics and room set up can be a thing... as well listening volume.

You mention above "conversational volume level." This would be 60 dB, roughly, or -25dB compared to reference level. Not knowing anything more about your setup, I am curious... How loud do you actually listen?
An SPL meter, at your LP, near ear level could give you a solid result. There are phone apps that can get close enough to accurate that you don't need to go buy a special one just because.
Likewise, if you are able to set your AVR to display Relative instead of Absolute volume, as well give us your distance from speaker, that would give us a better understanding of how loud you listen. Here's a link to help explain in case you need it.

What’s the Difference Between Relative and Absolute Volume?

Got a tech question for Sound & Vision? Email us at AskSandV@gmail.com Q I’m confused by the volume display on my AV receiver. There are two settings to choose from, Relative and Absolute. What’s the difference, and what do they mean? —Scott Oakley / via e-mail A The relative volume display on...

www.soundandvision.com

On a slightly different note, you could also try using EQ (if built in to your AVR) to see if adjusting downwards the frequencies in question help... just as an experiment... try -3dB at the two nearest frequencies to your problem area. Also experiment with the area I mentioned around 2000Hz.

Next, do you have the speakers aimed directly at you? Are they perpendicular to the front wall? Changing the angle a little can help, potentially.

Room acoustics can also play a roll in that lots of refection can seemingly promote those higher frequencies. If you stand in a quiet room and clap your hands, do you hear an echo? Possibly damping your room with some absorptive material can help. Carpet or a good area rug on the floor; artwork, knick-knacks, bookshelves with books; comfy furnishings; etc... all of these can help absorb and diffuse the soundwaves that are possibly irritating you.

Beyond that, I have experienced one set of speaker that caused me listening fatigue. It was not fun. Some of the advice I just mentioned was given to me at the time I was discussing it.

Hope this might help!

Cheers

EDIT: A little refresher reading shows some differing FR points for Fatigue, with one going a full 2 Octaves from 2000-8000Hz. Others show ~5500Hz as the upper range. Many comments are also made about SPL as a prime contributing factor.

 

[RickKurtis]

Thank you 2 very much for the responses.

Pogre:

I do mean the regular prime towers.

I hadn't though of using the Crutchfield comparison for these 2; I just tried it. The sound is almost identical to my ears on most tracks, but it does come with a different mid sound in many instances; it sounds cleaner around the vocal range. The prime, to my ears, gets muddled in many instances with vocals and background instrumentation. Often I notice the instrument, especially if it is near the vocal frequency, comes to the fore and overtakes vocal clarity; with the Ultra the vocals weren't competing in the same way. This matches what I hear in my own environment; the vocal range instrumentation becoming overly aggressive, if you will.

It's been 6 years now; though I've never thought about contacting them as them working with me on a trade wouldn't have even crossed my mind. That you mentioned the bookshelf is actually prescient, as that's what lead me to this whole post. I've been curious about switching the floor standers with bookshelfs and adding subs, as I don't have them now. I've no idea if the bookshelfs are suitable for this purpose, however?

Ryanosaur:

I'm definitely not going to claim sophisticated hearing ability; there's a reason my 3rd grade teacher took my recorder away from, and it wasn't for lack of trying haha. The differences in how people perceive the same sound is one of the more motivating factors in my burgeoning interest in home audio; it's a seemingly endless hobby.

LP is 10 feet from both front and right as well as center speakers.

I do have dB meter, so the referred to level is coming from that. As for the dB level, I'm talking 50-60 for conversation; that's my usual listening level unless I have movie or particularly beloved album playing. It's when I get up towards 70 that the Greg Allman's slide playing, for example, turns too much into a high pitched whine sensation on these speakers. On my Uni-Fi bookshelfs, on the other hand, I have no issue with it well above 70; it's a cry to my ears, not a whine, if that makes any sense.

I was thinking of the eq. I believe there is a paid one associated with the Marantz 6013. Do you have experience with it? Having never used an eq, I'm going to read a bit about this audyssey app.

 

[ryanosaur]

I was thinking of the eq. I believe there is a paid one associated with the Marantz 6013. Do you have experience with it? Having never used an eq, I'm going to read a bit about this audyssey app.

My SR 6012 has a graphical EQ built in. Don't have to pay, Audyssey has to be off. Audyssey App is also a good tool. You could start a file and play with a custom curve, reducing slightly the output in those ranges. That App is paid, $20, but very useful. I use it to limit my room correction to below the Schroeder Frequency of my room, for example. Just a thought.

Perhaps, It's just time for new speakers, too. *shrugs
Not trying to encourage that, but that might be your fix.

As I mentioned above, there might be a lot of things you can do in your room that could help address the issue from an acoustic standpoint.

 

[Pogre]

Thank you 2 very much for the responses.

Pogre:

I do mean the regular prime towers.

I hadn't though of using the Crutchfield comparison for these 2; I just tried it. The sound is almost identical to my ears on most tracks, but it does come with a different mid sound in many instances; it sounds cleaner around the vocal range. The prime, to my ears, gets muddled in many instances with vocals and background instrumentation. Often I notice the instrument, especially if it is near the vocal frequency, comes to the fore and overtakes vocal clarity; with the Ultra the vocals weren't competing in the same way. This matches what I hear in my own environment; the vocal range instrumentation becoming overly aggressive, if you will.

It's been 6 years now; though I've never thought about contacting them as them working with me on a trade wouldn't have even crossed my mind. That you mentioned the bookshelf is actually prescient, as that's what lead me to this whole post. I've been curious about switching the floor standers with bookshelfs and adding subs, as I don't have them now. I've no idea if the bookshelfs are suitable for this purpose, however?

Ryanosaur:

I'm definitely not going to claim sophisticated hearing ability; there's a reason my 3rd grade teacher took my recorder away from, and it wasn't for lack of trying haha. The differences in how people perceive the same sound is one of the more motivating factors in my burgeoning interest in home audio; it's a seemingly endless hobby.

LP is 10 feet from both front and right as well as center speakers.

I do have dB meter, so the referred to level is coming from that. As for the dB level, I'm talking 50-60 for conversation; that's my usual listening level unless I have movie or particularly beloved album playing. It's when I get up towards 70 that the Greg Allman's slide playing, for example, turns too much into a high pitched whine sensation on these speakers. On my Uni-Fi bookshelfs, on the other hand, I have no issue with it well above 70; it's a cry to my ears, not a whine, if that makes any sense.

I was thinking of the eq. I believe there is a paid one associated with the Marantz 6013. Do you have experience with it? Having never used an eq, I'm going to read a bit about this audyssey app.

Wait, what? You're using an online audio comparison to "listen" to different speakers? No, no, no... That is a very inaccurate way to judge speakers. You can't know what a speaker will sound like until you hear it. Even then, the best place to demo a speaker is in your home because room acoustics and speaker positioning can drastically alter the way a speaker sounds. Before I type anything else, have you actually listened to the Ultras (or any of the other speakers you've compared) in person?

*Edit: @ryanosaur is hitting on something very critical as well, maximizing what you have now before spending anything. There are a ton of little things that can make big differences with minimal effort and zero dollars!

 

[RickKurtis]

Yea, as I said in the original post, I was just curious about the Crutchfield comparison tool, and not being able to go aware to listen to other options gave it a try. I have little doubt that is not an ideal tool, but it did give me some info and the more prevalent nature of the mids in the tool for the primes was along the lines of what I was experiencing in my room.

I have gone ahead and downloaded the app; $20 vs a potential of $1k is a good trade-off. At worst, it will be a useful tool going forward.

 

[Pogre]

Yea, as I said in the original post, I was just curious about the Crutchfield comparison tool, and not being able to go aware to listen to other options gave it a try. I have little doubt that is not an ideal tool, but it did give me some info and the more prevalent nature of the mids in the tool for the primes was along the lines of what I was experiencing in my room.

I have gone ahead and downloaded the app; $20 vs a potential of $1k is a good trade-off. At worst, it will be a useful tool going forward.

"Not an ideal tool" is an enormous understatement. I would not base any purchasing decisions on something like that. Never. There is absolutely no way you could possibly tell what a speaker sounds like from that. For starters I'll bet they sounded more like the speakers you listened with than any of the ones you might have compared.

Think about it, how can one speaker possibly tell you what another speaker sounds like without making it sound like itself?

 

[RickKurtis]

I'm definitely curious now to play around with the eq. Along the same lines as the listening tool, I'm pretty sure the auto room correction on the AVR is not doing me the best of favors. Hopefully a tweaks can be made to correct what is an annoyance in a really small range of output.

All of this started when I began researching the addition of a sub or 2 so I'm also curious as to what effect those may have on this specific issue.

 

[Pogre]

I'm definitely curious now to play around with the eq. Along the same lines as the listening tool, I'm pretty sure the auto room correction on the AVR is not doing me the best of favors. Hopefully a tweaks can be made to correct what is an annoyance in a really small range of output.

All of this started when I began researching the addition of a sub or 2 so I'm also curious as to what effect those may have on this specific issue.

I think a sub or 2 is always a great idea!

I'm also a huge fan of the Ultra series speakers. The bookshelf speakers are very, very capable and with good subwoofage you won't miss the Prime towers. I keep kinda nudging you in that direction because I'm almost positive SVS will let you trade up, and their return policies are such that you can audition them right at home, risk free. The Prime Pinnacle also looks very good and reviewed well here at Audioholics.

SVS Prime Pinnacle Tower Speaker Review

SVS launched their new flagship Prime Pinnacle tower speaker. The Prime Pinnacle is a beefy-looking three-way tower speaker, but is it more than just a new version of the Prime tower? Read on.

www.audioholics.com

Subwoofers tho. Good subwoofers have a way of elevating your whole setup by taking the stress of the bass frequencies away from your speakers and amplifier. My experience was more clarity and headroom as well as (of course) more bass. Properly set up a sub adds a lot more than boom and bang, and does it without making itself the center of attention. Normally we say speakers first, but you have no subwoofage right now? That's an upgrade that'll for sure leave a mark.

 

[RickKurtis]

I'm definitely going to ask them if they're amenable to trade in. My biggest issue with subs at the moment are the room already taken up by the floors. If I can free some of that up, my wife would lose her biggest argument card against.

 

[Pogre]

I'm definitely going to ask them if they're amenable to trade in. My biggest issue with subs at the moment are the room already taken up by the floors. If I can free some of that up, my wife would lose her biggest argument card against.

Doesn't hurt to ask, right? You would have to judge for yourself but I'm very confident the Ultra books can get you into more high quality sound, but you'd be losing some bass for sure. In that case I think the Pinnacles would be a great option.

I would want subs either way tho. I have the Ultra towers and still use two 15" ported subs with them. You can't beat a subwoofer for clean, deep bass. What kind of space are you working with? Subs can be challenging to find a good spot for, but also more flexible than say your main speakers. You can tuck one in a corner, behind furniture, beside the couch covered and used as an end table or... knick knacks..? lol

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

For some reason, I remember early Prime models being criticized for what you’re describing. Harsh mid to top end. Seems like something was shared with the early SVS speakers, that made them grating and caused fatigue even at lower levels. Damned if I can remember for sure, but that sticks in my mind. In any case, I’m not digging on the primes, just pointing out that I recalled that.
I think @Pogre is nudging correctly if in fact your interested in upgrading. I don’t believe the tweeter is the same and think you’ll find the ultras to be considerably better. I also agree that some subwoofage is in order. It takes a real badass tower to be considered “full range” and most of us here don’t qualify to purchase as such. In short, I would consider adding a sub/s as well.

 

[Danzilla31]

For some reason, I remember early Prime models being criticized for what you’re describing. Harsh mid to top end. Seems like something was shared with the early SVS speakers, that made them grating and caused fatigue even at lower levels. Damned if I can remember for sure, but that sticks in my mind. In any case, I’m not digging on the primes, just pointing out that I recalled that.
I think @Pogre is nudging correctly if in fact your interested in upgrading. I don’t believe the tweeter is the same and think you’ll find the ultras to be considerably better. I also agree that some subwoofage is in order. It takes a real badass tower to be considered “full range” and most of us here don’t qualify to purchase as such. In short, I would consider adding a sub/s as well.

I started with the prime towers and what I found is the midrange and upper range did become harsh and strained exactly what he's describing when these speakers are pushed they are not meant for large rooms or open areas or far farther sitting positions

They need to have subs integrated with them and even then the top end will still do this somewhat if there pushed to hard they tend to fall apart a bit at the top end when you turn the dial up a bit some sibilance obvious compression and distortion not horrible but it's audible enough to get to you after awhile like the op observed

Now demoing the Ultra bookshelves I experienced none of that none in my room they sounded superb if I didn't want to go with the 530 JBL to go with my 590s Is have kept them in a heart beat

Subs are critical most towers are just not built these days to be a true full range the ones that can are just pretty expensive and very BIG usually so this needs to be considered if they are going in an open room

You could try the pc 2000 pros from SVS they don't take up as much floor space but are a bit taller then your regular sub

Or as some mentioned tucked in corners as end table as near field use subs can be very flexible in placement

 

[Jon AA]

Curious, I decided to measure the frequencies that were occurring and the biggest issues came in a range between 3500 Hz - 4500 Hz.

Both Audioholics: https://www.audioholics.com/tower-s...er-and-center-loudspeaker-review/measurements

and Soundstage: https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

measurements show that speaker to have quite an upper-midrange hump from ~2-3K to ~6-7K, not just on axis, but especially off axis as its dispersion widens significantly in that area (so even if it was flat on axis, you'd be energizing the room with a lot more energy in that frequency range, including first reflections).

Definitely run Audyssey through the app, upload and re-evaluate. The default curve with DEQ "On" may be enough to take care of the problem for you and save you a bunch of money. If not, you can try some different curves (we can help you there) to see if it's possible to get acceptable sound from these speakers. It may be possible, it may not be (there are things about speakers EQ simply can't fix). But if you give that a try, you'll feel less guilty about buying some new speakers, knowing you tried everything to make these work.

 

[RickKurtis]

I really appreciate the feedback and factual links. I'm honestly more than a bit surprised that the measurements show that my non-talented ears aren't just imaging things. It's certainly worth messing around with this audyssey eq for a while to see if it can cut that little bit of annoyance down. I also appreciate the offer for help on this; I'm sure I'll be back with questions.

I'd much prefer to just keep these speakers and focus my attention on the sub section. A related but oft asked question (my apologies but you all are already here): having planned on spending anywhere up to $1k - $1.5k on the sub, would you all recommend going for 2 moderately priced ones off the bat, or 1 higher priced one with idea that a 2nd could be filled in at an unspecified later date? There seems to be quite a lot of disagreement in my research on this. In my car audio days, I tended to find more smaller ones preferable to 1 larger, but this is not quite the same situation.

 

[CajunLB]

Look at HSU’s 12” subwoofer. You could get a pair on your budget and they would be great in your size room.

 

[CajunLB]

A pair of 12” Monolith subs can be had for 1600 and they would rock your room.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I really appreciate the feedback and factual links. I'm honestly more than a bit surprised that the measurements show that my non-talented ears aren't just imaging things. It's certainly worth messing around with this audyssey eq for a while to see if it can cut that little bit of annoyance down. I also appreciate the offer for help on this; I'm sure I'll be back with questions.

I'd much prefer to just keep these speakers and focus my attention on the sub section. A related but oft asked question (my apologies but you all are already here): having planned on spending anywhere up to $1k - $1.5k on the sub, would you all recommend going for 2 moderately priced ones off the bat, or 1 higher priced one with idea that a 2nd could be filled in at an unspecified later date? There seems to be quite a lot of disagreement in my research on this. In my car audio days, I tended to find more smaller ones preferable to 1 larger, but this is not quite the same situation.

Well your definitely right about different answers. My opinion is to get the biggest baddest one you can afford and immediately save for the second. It’s kind of a tricky question though in that everyone’s budget/expectations/waf/long term goals are different. I don’t like the idea of a bunch of mediocre subs in a room with middling linearity and extension, but everyone is different. I like extension even below 20hz, but others are fine with 25 or 30hz extension. It seems like you don’t ask for a lot of volume so the aforementioned 12’s from HSU or monolith might be perfect(although I’d push for the 15’s. If you’re watching big block busters at reference thane I’d recommend something ported in the 15-18” size.

Food for thought.

Bundles

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Bundles

Discover HSU Research’s award-winning subwoofers—engineered for powerful, accurate bass at budget-friendly prices. Explore our top-rated budget subwoofers and speakers by Dr. Hsu to elevate your home theater and music experience today.

www.hsuresearch.com

 

[Danzilla31]

I really appreciate the feedback and factual links. I'm honestly more than a bit surprised that the measurements show that my non-talented ears aren't just imaging things. It's certainly worth messing around with this audyssey eq for a while to see if it can cut that little bit of annoyance down. I also appreciate the offer for help on this; I'm sure I'll be back with questions.

I'd much prefer to just keep these speakers and focus my attention on the sub section. A related but oft asked question (my apologies but you all are already here): having planned on spending anywhere up to $1k - $1.5k on the sub, would you all recommend going for 2 moderately priced ones off the bat, or 1 higher priced one with idea that a 2nd could be filled in at an unspecified later date? There seems to be quite a lot of disagreement in my research on this. In my car audio days, I tended to find more smaller ones preferable to 1 larger, but this is not quite the same situation.

Get the best one you want them get a second one later if you buy mediocre starting off you just have to get rid of them and buy more later