SVS PB-13 Ultra vs JTR Captivator 2400 (with amp)

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Sometimes when a sub is said to be particularly musical, that raises a red flag to me. A sub with lots of harmonic distortion may sound like it has more articulation, simply for playing back notes that are not there. Also, any sub that has decent extension can be mistakenly perceived to sound 'slower' due to deeper frequency playback, which by its very nature can increase overhang and sound laggy.

Who knows what anyone truly thinks or means?

Unless you are in their minds, you can only assume what people really mean based on your personal experience.

To me, "more musical" doesn't mean more notes that isn't really there. It means sounding like a real live drum - tight and punchy, not boomy bass. But again, that's just my own communication and expression, which others may interpret differently.

I think it's not much different than when people say some speakers sound "bright" or "forward" or "clinical", while some people say the same speakers sound "neutral" or "accurate".

It's just their interpretations.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So in other words, the owners of that sub believe theirs are better then the opposing. I wonder if anyone has had both and can actually say (unbiased) which one is better in performance, however graphs would help. Hopefully it will be tested and graphed so people interested in the two can look somewhere like Data-Bass for reference.

There are other factors that affect people, although they may not share them. Aesthetic, size/placement issues, cost, etc.

For example, I had 2 great Funk 18.0 TSADv1 subs. IMO, they are second to none. But I sold them for a lost - not because I think there are better subs out there. I think Nathan Funk has stress tested the TSADv1 drivers for hours using up to 4,000 Watts of power. That may fry most drivers due to physical and thermal damages, but not the TSADv1. Can the same be said of other drivers?

But other factors play into the final scheme. It's a matter of suiting your personal need.

So just because someONE has owned both subs (JTR & SVS) and says he thinks one performs better, does not mean you or anyone else will agree.

My POV is that great subs sound great. That does NOT mean they sound the same. But they sound great - if not to everyone, then to someone.

You look at SPL, THD, and power compression. A few differences in data may seem significant on paper, but not as significant in real world application.

 

[PENG]

If reliable data are available, then all subs with the same THD & SPL will sound the same or equally "musical"?

If the much cheaper Chase/Chane sub has more SPL than the other much more expensive subs @ similar THD & compression data, does it mean the Chase sub will sound at least equally as good or even better?

Same frequency response and transient response characteristics too? I think THD is probably the least important one as long as they are below 10%, for me anyway. Having said that, I am willing to pay more for less. I know there are many factors, but I do find the AH sub reviews such as those by Joshua Ricci are the best as one can almost compare the data apple to apple. Without those, I really don't know what to go with, but I know I won't go with just hearsay.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Same frequency response and transient response characteristics too? I think THD is probably the least important one as long as they are below 10%, for me anyway. Having said that, I am willing to pay more for less. I know there are many factors, but I do find the AH sub reviews such as those by Joshua Riccithe are the best as one can almost compare the data apple to apple. Without those, I really don't know what to go with, but I know I won't go with just hearsay.

Yes, I agree the AH/Data-Bass measurements are the best subwoofer measurements. And I agree that 10% THD is inaudible for subs.

I also believe in paying more money for less SPL and power because there are other important factors to me besides SPL & power.

 

[shadyJ]

Once subs are below 20 Hz, even 10% THD could very well be audible. That is because the fundamental is below human perception but the harmonic is not.

 

[PENG]

Even the harmonics frequencies (and they would likely be decreasing in magnitude at higher orders) will be low enough to be undetectable to me, not to golden ears obviously.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Once subs are below 20 Hz, even 10% THD could very well be audible. That is because the fundamental is below human perception but the harmonic is not.

I don't know about the spectrum below 20Hz, but in the 30-40Hz range it is audible, and in my testing annoyingly so. 10% distortion means the first harmonic is in the range of -20db below the fundamental, so a 30Hz tone at 95db will have a 60Hz tone tagging along at -75db, which is a fairly common average listening level. 40Hz at 75db, the first harmonic of 20Hz, is pretty subtle, but I still wouldn't want it. Anyone can try these tests for themselves with downloadable test tones and an OmniMic. I guess I think bass needs to be cleaner than some folks.

 

[Basshead81]

Any clue to where that may have been? I wonder if thats with the Amp built in or passive with different amp.

Over at AVS...one of the DIY gurus mentioned it. Check out the ULF Thread as well.

Your Home Theater ULF Score - AVS Forum

 

[PENG]

I don't know about the spectrum below 20Hz, but in the 30-40Hz range it is audible, and in my testing annoyingly so. 10% distortion means the first harmonic is in the range of -20db below the fundamental, so a 30Hz tone at 95db will have a 60Hz tone tagging along at -75db, which is a fairly common average listening level. 40Hz at 75db, the first harmonic of 20Hz, is pretty subtle, but I still wouldn't want it. Anyone can try these tests for themselves with downloadable test tones and an OmniMic. I guess I think bass needs to be cleaner than some folks.

A few weeks ago when shopping for subwoofers I did search the topic on bass distortions and been to a website with test tones. I do find test tones typically annoying (not surprising) regardless. Buying without auditioning I eneded up with SVS base on specs, measurements and unfortunately, cost too. Again, I would pay more for less whether I can hear 10% or not.

On the other hand, people on forums do seem to claim that SVS sealed boxes are more musical than their ported siblings, despite the relatively higher THD, so I think Shady has a point about people may actually like or not mind those HDs. If I could afford it, the JLA would still be my choice, again base on their relatively lower distortions, probably nothing below 10K beats them in that department except for someone's DIYs. Bottom line for me is, get the best specs I can afford but that's just me and is not wise or logical, a bit ocd I guess..

 

[shadyJ]

If I could afford it, the JLA would still be my choice, again base on their relatively lower distortions, probably nothing below 10K beats them in that department except for someone's DIYs.

Look at the Funk 18.0 THD measurement at data-bass.com. No way JL Audio is coming close to that. One of the few that tops it is the TC Sounds LMS Ultra, but not by much.

 

[PENG]

Look at the Funk 18.0 THD measurement at data-bass.com. No way JL Audio is coming close to that. One of the few that tops it is the TC Sounds LMS Ultra, but not by much.

JL SPL Plot.jpg Full Screen Image | Audioholics

A FUNK AUDIO FW18.0 240V CEA-2010 chart.png Full Screen Image | Audioholics

From 16 to 63 Hz, the range I need for my subs, the JL's THD+N is hard to beat in the sealed category. I am sure there are better ones and perhaps on the passive side, just I am not aware of many.

 

[Irvrobinson]

On the other hand, people on forums do seem to claim that SVS sealed boxes are more musical than their ported siblings, despite the relatively higher THD, so I think Shady has a point about people may actually like or not mind those HDs.

For well-designed large subwoofers, those flat to 25Hz or so, I've never understood the notion that sealed subs are more musical. Yeah, some ported subs are under-damped and some sealed subs aren't, but that's a design choice, not a refection on the overall strategy. For smaller subs, that really are more like woofers than subwoofers, the shallower roll-off of a sealed design might be what attracts these people.

In my own case, I'm doing what the audiofools advise against, mixing a sealed sub with ported mains. The combination actually sounds awesome and realistic.

 

[its phillip]

JL SPL Plot.jpg Full Screen Image | Audioholics

A FUNK AUDIO FW18.0 240V CEA-2010 chart.png Full Screen Image | Audioholics

From 16 to 63 Hz, the range I need for my subs, the JL's THD+N is hard to beat in the sealed category. I am sure there are better ones and perhaps on the passive side, just I am not aware of many.

Those measurements for the JL are in-room. It makes a difficult comparison. I would guess that if you turned the Funk down to the match the SPL of the JL product, the Funk's distortion would drop significantly.

Also, here's an old review of the F113 done by Ilkka when he was the only one doing a lot of CEA-2010 testing:
JL Audio Fathom f113 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

And here is AH's review of the E110 & E112 if you didn't see those:
JL Audio E-Sub e110 and e112 Subwoofers Measurements & Analysis | Audioholics

 

[PENG]

Those measurements for the JL are in-room. It makes a difficult comparison. I would guess that if you turned the Funk down to the match the SPL of the JL product, the Funk's distortion would drop significantly.

Also, here's an old review of the F113 done by Ilkka when he was the only one doing a lot of CEA-2010 testing:
JL Audio Fathom f113 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

And here is AH's review of the E110 & E112 if you didn't see those:
JL Audio E-Sub e110 and e112 Subwoofers Measurements & Analysis | Audioholics

I read all those I was interested in. That included Funk, SVS, JLA, Rythmik. People tend to say the JL Audio's are musical, whatever they meant, but I did audition the 10 and 10" and know they sound good and look good. Just a little expensive for me though.

 

[shadyJ]

Those measurements for the JL are in-room. It makes a difficult comparison. I would guess that if you turned the Funk down to the match the SPL of the JL product, the Funk's distortion would drop significantly.

Also, here's an old review of the F113 done by Ilkka when he was the only one doing a lot of CEA-2010 testing:
JL Audio Fathom f113 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

And here is AH's review of the E110 & E112 if you didn't see those:
JL Audio E-Sub e110 and e112 Subwoofers Measurements & Analysis | Audioholics

+1, the charts you really want to use are THD charts, either from Ricci or Ilkka. Now look at the chart for the Funk 18.0 in the 120 volt line. Compare that to any other sealed sub THD measurement out there. Keep in mind the 240 volt version gains you only a single dB in burst output and maybe 2 dB in long term output, so it doesn't offer any real advantage and only pushes the woofer into distortion with that extra power. The Funk 18.0 is multiple times cleaner than the F113 or E112. The only driver that I see on data bass.com with superior THD measurements is the LMS Ultra, and only then by a hair. The Funk TSAD is an amazing driver, and looks to be one of the very best out there.

 

[jasonr93]

Over at AVS...one of the DIY gurus mentioned it. Check out the ULF Thread as well.

Your Home Theater ULF Score - AVS Forum

Thanks, i will be sure to look over this.

 

[jasonr93]

I also believe the JTR will have significantly more output than the SVS.

I'd love to see them tested on data-bass of course.

I wonder if there is a way to suggest testing this sub on data-bass.

 

[billy p]

I wonder if there is a way to suggest testing this sub on data-bass.

Its pretty easy IMO...Jeff sends Ricci the sub and he tests it. I'd say the same goes for the SubM....at least it shouldn't be...if you ask me. Send it and he'll will test it....when time permits...its that simple!

 

[jasonr93]

Just curious. How big is your room?

Currently in the process of moving, was thinking about either the JTR or SVS with price and performance. However shadyJ mentioned that someone did state that the JTR easily replaced 2 PC-13 Ultras, so for the price difference in performance sounds good.

 

[PENG]

+1, the charts you really want to use are THD charts, either from Ricci or Ilkka. Now look at the chart for the Funk 18.0 in the 120 volt line. Compare that to any other sealed sub THD measurement out there. Keep in mind the 240 volt version gains you only a single dB in burst output and maybe 2 dB in long term output, so it doesn't offer any real advantage and only pushes the woofer into distortion with that extra power. The Funk 18.0 is multiple times cleaner than the F113 or E112. The only driver that I see on data bass.com with superior THD measurements is the LMS Ultra, and only then by a hair. The Funk TSAD is an amazing driver, and looks to be one of the very best out there.

I don't see any THD+N comparison charts for the f113 to the 18.0 Can you provide if you don't mind? Comparing outputs surely the 18.0 would win, by whatever that multiple may be, 1.1, 1.5, 2, 3X etc., I have no idea. I suppose you would have to compare them within a certain range. Anyway I do have great respect for the Funk and almost order one a few weeks ago. At under 100 lbs, their passive models are really enticing. I am just not sure about the JTR as I learnt not to trust specs on paper alone.

Yes I see that the test only showed a 1dB gain on 240V. It is just not good practice to connect load rated for 2400W to a 120V outlet though. Again, 120V outlets are rated to deliver around (+/-) 1450W (1800W only for resistive loads) continuous. I fully understand music will not draw continuous power, but even during the peaks the voltage drop could be excessive if those peaks go any where near 2400W on a 120V line vs a 240V line. For the same wattage, doubling the voltage means halving the current, hence half the voltage drop. If there is only a gain of 1 dB at doubling the voltage, that tells me the amp may be current limiting. We all know you can have two amps rated the same wattage, yet one could have much more headroom. Also, like it or not, if the unit is rated 2400W, with a 15A rated power cord and a 120V inlet, I doubt it would get CSA approval. I wonder if at the back it says 2400W and whether it does have CSA or cUL approval. Would you happen to know?