SVS PB-13 Ultra vs JTR Captivator 2400 (with amp)

[jasonr93]

Its pretty easy IMO...Jeff sends Ricci the sub and he tests it. I'd say the same goes for the SubM....at least it shouldn't be...if you ask me. Send it and he'll will test it....when time permits...its that simple!

Oh, makes me wonder why he hasn't done that yet to show where the subs performance is.

 

[shadyJ]

Here are some THD sweeps for the f113:

and here is some for the 18.0:

Keep in mind the maximum output sweep run on the f113 is at 115 dB, but for the Funk sub, that is the minimum sweep for that chart. The Funk never crosses over 10% THD at a 115 dB sweep, but for the same sweep level the F113 pretty much stays above 20% THD at 40 Hz and below. The JL Audio subs gets outperformed by a wide margin. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to trash JL Audio. It is, after all, it is a much smaller sub and has a bunch of extra features like room correction. I would love to play around with some W7 drivers which look amazing, but for performance for the dollar, it doesn't compare too well with Funk, as well it shouldn't with so much less woofer surface area.

As for the amplifier and power line questions you have, I take your point, but I don't know the details about that stuff. I believe that Funk uses the Speaker Power amps that JTR and Seaton uses. As for CSA or UL certification, you will have to ask Funk or Speaker Power about that.

 

[jasonr93]

My guess is the SVS has no advantage over the JTR with respect to low frequency playback. The physics are totally in the JTR's favor.

In theory (without any data on the JTR's) couldn't the SVS have a lower THD, resulting in cleaner bass even if the JTR's win in lower frequency range and output? I hope Jeff does send some of his subs in to get tested and graphed, if they are good as some people say it will have data-bass to back it up. Plus it could always help sales, if needed.

 

[shadyJ]

In theory (without any data on the JTR's) couldn't the SVS have a lower THD, resulting in cleaner bass even if the JTR's win in lower frequency range and output? I hope Jeff does send some of his subs in to get tested and graphed, if they are good as some people say it will have data-bass to back it up. Plus it could always help sales, if needed.

Of course, it's possible that the PB13 could have lower THD, but it is just not likely, given what is known about the Captivator. I would definitely not bet on it. However, low THD is a strong point for the Ultra. It has less deep bass distortion than the Rythmik FV15HP and PSA XV30, and the XV30 has 2.5 times the woofer surface area of the PB13. But the Captivator promises to be in another league from these subwoofers. As for JTR sending a sub in for measurement and review, it would be nice but from the sound of it, JTR doesn't really need extra exposure. Their orders already have a significant lead time, as I understand it.

 

[PENG]

Keep in mind the maximum output sweep run on the f113 is at 115 dB, but for the Funk sub, that is the minimum sweep for that chart. The Funk never crosses over 10% THD at a 115 dB sweep, but for the same sweep level the F113 pretty much stays above 20% THD at 40 Hz and below. The JL Audio subs gets outperformed by a wide margin. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to trash JL Audio. It is, after all, it is a much smaller sub and has a bunch of extra features like room correction. I would love to play around with some W7 drivers which look amazing, but for performance for the dollar, it doesn't compare too well with Funk, as well it shouldn't with so much less woofer surface area.

As you mentioned "physics", I always know for high output the Funk will beat the JL Audio easily, the f110,112,113 just don't have the needed volume. Whenever I referred to THD, I have always been talking about the 100 to 110 dB output range. At those output levels, that I will not even come close to as I typically listen to 70 to 85 dB max with peaks to say 110 dB at the most, I would say the JLA still have arguably the lowest THD for sealed subs. With room gain and seating positions I will never need the output of the 18.0. ADTG drove them with his 300W amp so I am not alone as he would never approach those figures either. I suspect that applies to most people who listen to normal spl in small to medium large rooms.

Stupid queston: Am I suppose to register with that site in order to see those data? I did search extensively in the past few weeks but typically got there due to links from other sites and forums such as the Hometheatershack.

As for the amplifier and power line questions you have, I take your point, but I don't know the details about that stuff. I believe that Funk uses the Speaker Power amps that JTR and Seaton uses. As for CSA or UL certification, you will have to ask Funk or Speaker Power about that.

Okay, I could shoot him an email, he seemed very responsive to email enquiries. I am quite sure as specified it wouldn't pass CSA, UL, cUL but they might have some tricks to get around that. My next sub could well be a Funk 18.0 passive. I prefer the active one but it is the weight as I have to move it up stairs. That may be happening tonight, I am already feeling the pain..

 

[PENG]

JTR doesn't really need extra exposure. Their orders already have a significant lead time, as I understand it.

Or stating another way, they probably didn't want to take any chances by having "extra" exposure, to keep the lead time "significant".. Just kidding!!

 

[Steve81]

As for the amplifier and power line questions you have, I take your point, but I don't know the details about that stuff. I believe that Funk uses the Speaker Power amps that JTR and Seaton uses. As for CSA or UL certification, you will have to ask Funk or Speaker Power about that.

Funk actually uses Pascal amplifier modules which are assembled in house. High res shot of the amp is here:
http://funkaudio.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/18_0SE-5.jpg

 

[Steve81]

Or stating another way, they probably didn't want to take any chances by having "extra" exposure, to keep the lead time "significant".. Just kidding!!

I might be cynical, but I don't expect that's too far off from the truth. Numbers and graphs are a lot less sexy than owner reviews stating how a Cap easily blows multiples of Rythmik, SVS, PSA, etc. away. That's not to say that I'd expect the Captivator to bench test badly, but lets face facts: both Jeff P. (and Mark S.) regularly tour the subwoofer GTGs; if they've got the time and product to do that, how hard is it to send a sample to Josh? Moreover, it's not like inclusion on data-bass is the front cover of Time magazine. People who are aware of data-bass are probably already aware of JTR.

 

[billy p]

I might be cynical, but I don't expect that's too far off from the truth. Numbers and graphs are a lot less sexy than owner reviews stating how a Cap easily blows multiples of Rythmik, SVS, PSA, etc. away. That's not to say that I'd expect the Captivator to bench test badly, but lets face facts: both Jeff P. (and Mark S.) regularly tour the subwoofer GTGs; if they've got the time and product to do that, how hard is it to send a sample to Josh? Moreover, it's not like inclusion on data-bass is the front cover of Time magazine. People who are aware of data-bass are probably already aware of JTR.

Exactly...IIRC...it was Josh himself who stated if you want your sub tested provide me with said sub...I know he and Mark have had that discussion over at AVS. IMHO...its time for all the excusses to stop....others ID builder and/ or mfg have to go through the same scrutiny to have their claims legitimized. In the end....Databass is a great place to obtain the required results so long as you know or can understand the provided data.

I'd say this only assits a tiny sample of actual people whom have vested income in this crazy hobby. To the larger majority the likes of DB....JTR, Seaton, FA, Ascend, Salk, PSA or Svs & several other ID retailers not listed have little or zero idenity with these respective names. In the end these number mean so much...to so few...who cares or not ...becomes irrelevant... because in the end other things come into play for the majority or the masses.

I personally don't know of anyone who has even heard of any of the names I've listed above and that's not to say i know a ton of people but I know a few.

End of rant...

 

[shadyJ]

As you mentioned "physics", I always know for high output the Funk will beat the JL Audio easily, the f110,112,113 just don't have the needed volume. Whenever I referred to THD, I have always been talking about the 100 to 110 dB output range. At those output levels, that I will not even come close to as I typically listen to 70 to 85 dB max with peaks to say 110 dB at the most, I would say the JLA still have arguably the lowest THD for sealed subs. With room gain and seating positions I will never need the output of the 18.0. ADTG drove them with his 300W amp so I am not alone as he would never approach those figures either. I suspect that applies to most people who listen to normal spl in small to medium large rooms.

I'm betting that distortion for both subs scales commensurately, and there is no reason that I can see that the JL Audio subs would have disproportionately less distortion than other subs for lower volume levels. At modest volumes levels both subs will have nearly zero distortion. At 110 dB, the F113 doesn't do too badly, and manages to stay under 10% over 40 Hz. The nice thing about the JL Audio sub is its resale value; if you ever have reason to part with it, it won't be a problem to sell for a reasonable price. I'm guessing it will take more effort to unload the Funk sub.

Stupid queston: Am I suppose to register with that site in order to see those data? I did search extensively in the past few weeks but typically got there due to links from other sites and forums such as the Hometheatershack.

Which data are you talking about exactly?

 

[shadyJ]

Funk actually uses Pascal amplifier modules which are assembled in house. High res shot of the amp is here:
http://funkaudio.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/18_0SE-5.jpg

I stand corrected.

I might be cynical, but I don't expect that's too far off from the truth. Numbers and graphs are a lot less sexy than owner reviews stating how a Cap easily blows multiples of Rythmik, SVS, PSA, etc. away. That's not to say that I'd expect the Captivator to bench test badly, but lets face facts: both Jeff P. (and Mark S.) regularly tour the subwoofer GTGs; if they've got the time and product to do that, how hard is it to send a sample to Josh? Moreover, it's not like inclusion on data-bass is the front cover of Time magazine. People who are aware of data-bass are probably already aware of JTR.

Josh does charge money for his testing. I don't know how much it is, but if you already have more orders than you can handle, there is no incentive to add on another expense. Plus, shipping those behemoths isn't exactly free either. I can see why Jeff and Mark will do GTGs but are not interested in Josh's testing at the moment.

 

[Steve81]

Josh does charge money for his testing. I don't know how much it is, but if you already have more orders than you can handle, there is no incentive to add on another expense. Plus, shipping those behemoths isn't exactly free either. I can see why Jeff and Mark will do GTGs but are not interested in Josh's testing at the moment.

Josh's testing plus shipping isn't free of course... however, these guys aren't just attending GTGs within 20 miles of Chicago either. They've attended GTGs in Kansas City, Omaha, and Pennsylvania; I don't imagine that to be cheap, particularly if you count their time. I'd also note the more demand they can drum up, the more they can raise prices. I don't expect either Mark or Jeff are minimalist monks who want to make as little as possible off their products.

 

[its phillip]

Yeah, I really don't understand why they haven't gotten them tested either. I'm definitely looking forward to seeing them on data-bass one of these days.

 

[Tom V.]

Josh's testing plus shipping isn't free of course... however, these guys aren't just attending GTGs within 20 miles of Chicago either. They've attended GTGs in Kansas City, Omaha, and Pennsylvania; I don't imagine that to be cheap, particularly if you count their time. I'd also note the more demand they can drum up, the more they can raise prices. I don't expect either Mark or Jeff are minimalist monks who want to make as little as possible off their products.

The amount Josh charge's is extremely reasonable for the amount of time he spends with each product. And shipping isn't bad when you have accounts with each shipper. Put it this way, the TOTAL cost for a product review would likely be paid for from the profits of a single sale of said product.

I'm sure the products being discussed will perform well if/when they are measured by Josh.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Getting official measurements has a lot more risks than just the little cost. If they don't truly measure as well as they claim or users claim, it would be a tremendous setback IMO.

Now if I know unequivocally that my products are better than most products or if my products are the best, of course, I would want to get them tested STAT.

Some companies just don't believe in any official standardized measurement - whether it is loudspeakers or subwoofers. They may think those home-made graphs from customers are good enough.

I may not care about doing any home-made graphs (except for Audyssey graphs). But I'm not a manufacturer of loudspeakers and subwoofers. I think most audiophiles expect a lot more from manufacturers. But some people don't expect as much.

 

[PENG]

Which data are you talking about exactly?

The last one you linked, to the THD+N. I mean like the AH ones, you can easily find them all reviews under the product review section.

 

[shadyJ]

That last one is from the AH review of the 18.0. There is no registration needed to find any of the data at any of these sites that I know of.

 

[PENG]

That last one is from the AH review of the 18.0. There is no registration needed to find any of the data at any of these sites that I know of.

That explains it, I just assume you referred to the data-bass.com site. Your previous post led to think that way.

 

[jasonr93]

SVS's warranty is good for 5 years. I contacted them for pricing of parts out of warranty for the PB-13 Ultra and got a response back stating
Driver:$650
Amp:$599
Curious to get a response back from JTR on their warranty and prices for parts out of warranty.

 

[its phillip]

Thanks, it doesn't say much other than high efficiency blablabla....., really nothing to be curious about either as we know class D,G,H etc. are efficient. Fact is, efficiency cannot be greater than 100% and you can't draw more than what the source is rated to provide, short term yes, question is how short/long. One could be creative in specifying power rating without stating the actual conditions. I thought we all know that already.

Ricci just reviewed an RBH sub for AH and he made some comments on the amplifier (which happens to be a speakerpower unit)
RBH Sound SX-1212P/R Subwoofer Review | Audioholics