SVS PB 13-Ultra or Goldenear Supersub XXL

[BoredSysAdmin]

The surface area of two 15" woofers is 353.4" and the surface area of three 12" woofers is 339.3". That is so close that other factors will determine performance advantage. Either system would be great. I would not look forward to moving the 170 lbs 3X12 sub around though, you would really need to know the best place for it before bringing it into the house.

yes but 3x15 area is 530.1 sq/in > 3x12 339.3"
Due to pricing of dual vtf3 mk5 is about $775/ea - buying 3 of these will surely can be negotiated down very close to $700 - I have seen some deep discounts on HSU subs on trade shows

 

[JDCO]

I very much appreciate the info guys. I wasn't looking at doing a vtf3 mk5 dual drive. But after you brought it to my attention I got on Hsu website and this is what they say about the dual drive and I quote "
HSU Research is proud to introduce the VTF-3 MK5 HP DualDrive, an ultra low distortion subwoofer system that has up to four times the output of a single VTF-3 MK5 HP – enough output to crack windows and give you a physical massage. It will give you an airy, effortless bass with extreme dynamics." End quote. I do not have enough knowledge to read the test graphs to understand them to know how accurate this claim actually is. Wondering if you or anyone could shed light on this. Would I be better off getting one dual drive now with the claim. And then down the road doing a second? I understand that two of the vtf3 mk5's would have more room coverage compared to a single dual drive. That aside for now. Looking at performance per dollar.

 

[shadyJ]

I very much appreciate the info guys. I wasn't looking at doing a vtf3 mk5 dual drive. But after you brought it to my attention I got on Hsu website and this is what they say about the dual drive and I quote "
HSU Research is proud to introduce the VTF-3 MK5 HP DualDrive, an ultra low distortion subwoofer system that has up to four times the output of a single VTF-3 MK5 HP – enough output to crack windows and give you a physical massage. It will give you an airy, effortless bass with extreme dynamics." End quote. I do not have enough knowledge to read the test graphs to understand them to know how accurate this claim actually is. Wondering if you or anyone could shed light on this. Would I be better off getting one dual drive now with the claim. And then down the road doing a second?

First, understand that a dual drive is just a term for two subwoofers, it is not some kind of different system. As for four times the output, that quote is banking on the difference of efficiency between wattage and acoustic amplitude. In other words, the doubling of the amplifier power in a dual drive effects a 6 dB increase in output, whereas doubling the power within a single subwoofer will only net you a 3 dB increase in output. So they are really talking about efficiency, not some kind of dramatic power boost. The dual drive system on this page is basically just a discount for getting two subwoofers. If you bought two dual drives (ie four subs), that would be insane (and awesome). Of course, with two dual drives, you boost the efficiency of the power ratio even more with respect to acoustic output, essentially a 16x ratio, but you really wouldn't be getting 16 times the performance over a single VTF3- pretty much just four times the performance for 1/16th the wattage over a single subwoofer.

 

[KEW]

Yes, Hsu is making a statement that, while true, is largely misleading.
The 6dBm increase Shady mentioned requires that you colocate (or stack) the sub. However, the biggest reason to have dual subs is to even out the bass, which won't happen if they are colocated.

 

[JDCO]

That all makes sense. Thank you. I guess it's just a matter of how much I'm willing to spend at this point. But I'm guessing 2 dual drive subs would be beyond over kill for my room size.

 

[its phillip]

No such thing as overkill when it comes to subwoofers

 

[JDCO]

No such thing as overkill when it comes to subwoofers

Lol this is true. I did notice that they don't have specs on that page for the size of the cabinet the dual drive one is. Guessing same as the single driver version?

 

[shadyJ]

Lol this is true. I did notice that they don't have specs on that page for the size of the cabinet the dual drive one is. Guessing same as the single driver version?

Again, the "dual drive" is just a name for two VTF3 mk5s. The specs for the VTF3s are located on their own product page. The term 'dual drive' is just a name for two of the same subwoofers which has been floating around, I guess due to the fact that they constitute a single overall bass system. You could call three subs a 'triple drive' or four subs a 'quad drive'.

 

[its phillip]

Lol this is true. I did notice that they don't have specs on that page for the size of the cabinet the dual drive one is. Guessing same as the single driver version?

You might have missed part of shadyJ's post. The DualDrive system is simply a package deal on a pair of subwoofers. It's not a dual driver version or anything.

 

[JDCO]

Ah I see now. Sorry was confused completely there. I was totally thinking they meant 2 15's in the same cabinet just like the golden ear XXL has 2 horizontal axis 12's in the same cabinet. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[shadyJ]

Yes, Hsu is making a statement that, while true, is largely misleading.
The 6dBm increase Shady mentioned requires that you colocate (or stack) the sub. However, the biggest reason to have dual subs is to even out the bass, which won't happen if they are colocated.

You will still get a boost in output, but it will not be the full 6 dB. Usually inbetween 3 and 6 dB, except at nulls. In order to get the 6 dB, the subs must be within 1/4 of a wavelength from each other. This is easy to do at low frequencies since those wavelengths are so long (1/4 wavelength of 20 Hz is 14 feet, for example), however at higher frequencies the subs must be close together for this to occur (at 80 Hz the 1/4 wavelength is 3.5 feet). Even then, cancellations and summations will boost some frequencies and lower others, but the additional energy of a second subwoofer is overall the same.

 

[JDCO]

I would plan on (unless I find better sub placement) putting the two subs upfront firing towards LP. Roughly 10ft to the LP. And spaced roughly 8 ft from each other.

 

[shadyJ]

With that kind of placement, one thing you can think about doing is raising the crossover above the standard 80 Hz. Crossing over to the sub above 80 Hz isn't done much because the sub can become localizable and tilt the soundstage in its direction, however, since your bass will be evenly distributed in that arrangement, you can do a higher crossover without a localization penalty. The subs will likely be able to hit harder than your mains in upper bass, and all Hsu subs are flat up to 200 Hz. You might try a 100 and 125 Hz crossover points and see how that sounds. What speakers are you using for the front left, right, and center?

 

[JDCO]

Great idea thank you. The mains and center are cheap. The Klipsch Icon series. But after I get the subs i will be doing a trade in and getting the Golden ear Triton Fives. And then a new center channel after. Not sure what center channel I will get. Did look at the golden ear one though.

 

[shadyJ]

I have heard the Triton Ones and thought they were very good. You will want a center speaker that matches your left and right, so if you go with Golden Ear, you will want a corresponding Golden Ear center speaker. The front stage should be timbre matched! You can also use a bookshelf speaker as a center with no problem, in fact, a bookshelf speaker might perform better because lining up drivers on a horizontal plane can like what the Golden Ear center speakers do can create lobing problems. Read this if you want to get in depth here, but if you want the short version, here is a statement from the article's summary, "Look for designs that have a vertical arrangement of their tweeters and midrange drivers. Look for planar, coaxial, lower tweeter crossover points, higher order crossovers, or other designs that avoid or minimize the “double slit” effect and incoherency that can result." What that is really saying is try to avoid speakers where the drivers are horizontally arranged.

Another thing is, the major advantage tower speakers have over bookshelf speakers is bass extension. However, when running a sub like the Hsu, that extension will not be used, because you will likely be crossing over at 80 Hz or higher, which is a point of extension most decent sized bookshelf speakers can dog down to, so the chief reason for getting tower speakers is negated. You might consider getting the Golden Ear bookshelf speakers for fronts instead of the towers. With your intended arrangement, you can even use the subs as bookshelf speaker stands to save floor space as well as money. The ideal is to use identical speakers for all channels anyway, so if you can accommodate a bookshelf speaker as a center speaker, you will not only have saved money and floor space, but you may end up with a better sounding system overall as well- from the above linked article, "To get the most cohesive performance out of perhaps the most important channel in your home theater, strive for getting a center channel that is identical to your mains." If you want to stick with Golden Ears, I would be looking at Aon 3 bookshelf speakers for front left, right, and center.

 

[KEW]

Most of us have subs and many prefer buying a BS at a higher quality level than a tower at a lower quality level since the sub covers the bass. I am not familiar with Golden Ear, but check out what a BS from the next higher series costs.

 

[JDCO]

Wow I had no idea. So towers aren't really worth it until you reach somewhat a higher tier of quality? Given you have adequate subs for that range also. I am open to all brands to audio equipment as this is all new to me. And as anything else in life there is multiple companies that make great equipment. I was looking at golden ear because my local audio store carries them. And I do like there business model and founder Sandy Gross. And the Triton towers I've heard including the 5's and 1's which were crazy. But I'm open to anything.

 

[shadyJ]

Towers are better for when there is no subwoofer involved. You will get a higher quality sound from the fronts if you invest in speakers that concentrate on sound reproduction at 80 Hz and above. It is costly for any speaker to chase that bottom octave, and a bit of a waste when subs are used.

One speaker I would look at is the Reaction CX-10. Relatively high powered bookshelf speaker and neutral frequency response. The driver is very high end considering the speaker cost, so it is a performance first and foremost speaker. It is made to order, so there is a lead time on it. A CX-10 front stage plus a couple of VTF3s may well be enough for you to reach honest-to-god THX Reference levels.

Another speaker I like that is on sale at the moment is the Emotiva Stealth 8. It's not as powerful as the CX-10, but its dynamic range is well above average for bookshelf speakers. It is powered, so it will not tax your receiver's amplifier. The nice thing about that is it will help your receiver last longer, due to less heat generation. You will need pre-outs on your receiver to use the Stealth 8s though. The measurements for the Stealth 8 is very nice, it is a very accurate speaker.

 

[JDCO]

I will check both of those speakers out now. Thank you. It makes sense everything you're saying and I'm reading. It's just crazy to me that people don't go this rout. Or at least anyone I know. It's all about the big bad expensive towers. I do think my receiver needs an upgrade too at some point.

 

[JDCO]

Can't find much info online about the Reaction CX-10. Was trying to find some reviews on it. Very interested now. Would be the same price for a LCR of these as a pair of Golden ear Triton 5's.