Surge Protectors Discussion

H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I've installed about 10 whole house TVSS units a year.
Had an interesting experience a few years ago:
Lightning hit the distribution on a dead end street. I ended up at 6 homes by the end of the day (they all saw my truck on a week-end).:)

Four homes lost basically anything with a micro-chip in it. One home had no damage, but the cheap whole house TVSS $40 - $50 had a hole blown out of the side. Sacrificed itself doing its job.(Exactly what MOV's are supposed to do) Only one house had no damage and they had an Intermatic IG3240RC unit; has a nice metal housing and $25,000 Connected Equip Warrantee.(Granted none of these are perfect)

The combined types provide the best protection. A whole-house at the panel and a point-of-use at the equipment.

Some very good Whole House TVSS is offered by the utility. They simply come out and unplug your meter, plug in a collar, then put your meter back into the collar.
What do the utilities charge for this?
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
What do the utilities charge for this?
It's about $6.00 a month. Your MMV. I guess that's not too bad, if you don't mind paying that reoccurring charge for many years to come.
They have LED's on the side to let you know they're working
 
Shock

Shock

Audioholic General
The best option for surge protection is whole house surge protection.

Add a fast UPS for line fluctuations etc to gear with microprocessors and you have it made.
Most quality builders will make a whole house surge protector mandatory. Nearly every electrician I've encountered say they have one in their own home.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
It's about $6.00 a month. Your MMV. I guess that's not too bad, if you don't mind paying that reoccurring charge for many years to come.
They have LED's on the side to let you know they're working
If that Intermatic takes a hard hit, is it still "good as new" or is it somehow less capable than new? I have looked at that one at Menard's and have been thinking about getting one.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
If that Intermatic takes a hard hit, is it still "good as new" or is it somehow less capable than new? I have looked at that one at Menard's and have been thinking about getting one.
It has two green LED's and a red one. As long as both greens are still lit, you're good to go.
 
W

westom

Audioholic
This thread reminds me of the guy who claimed Surge suppressors were dangerous ...
That APC is the type of protector that creates house fires. Where are surges - hundreds of thousands of joules - absorbed? How do hundreds of joules inside the APC absorb surges that are hundred of thousands of joules?

It does not. APC does not even claim protection in its numeric specs. That sentence alone says everything you need know. But then we discuss where energy gets dissipated - and so many other facts.

For over 100 years, the effective solution never did what that APC does. Surge protectors are not protection. And surge protectors must never be sacrificial devices. Ineffective protectors (ie APC, Belkin, Monster) must somehow absorb how many joules?

Effective protection is about where energy dissipates - harmlessly in earth. A protector only connects energy to protection. A protector is not protection. It is only a connecting device.

The point: a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. What makes the 'whole house' protector so effective? Better earthing. Only earthing dissipates that energy. Which is why a protector without that short connection to earth - ie APC - does not even claim that protection in numeric specs.

Every protection layer is defined by the only thing that provides protection - earth ground. The above 'whole house' protector is only secondary protection. Homeowners should also inspect what defines the primary protection layer:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

What also needs protection? That APC with so few joules. Earth only one 'whole house' protector so that power strip protectors do not threaten human life. Another problem with protectors that do not claim to provide surge protection. That are undersized to also increase profits:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339

None of this is complex. Effective protector is quickly identified - it has the always required dedicated wire to connect short to earth. This even defines why the massively overpriced APC, Belkin, and Monster do not even claim to provide protection in numeric specs. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
 
W

westom

Audioholic
If that Intermatic takes a hard hit, is it still "good as new" or is it somehow less capable than new?
Knowledge always starts with numbers. The typical lightning strike is 20,000 amps. Any minimally sized 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps.

Protectors are installed for events that occur typically once every seven years. A number that can vary significantly even within town. For example, a home located at the end of a power line can be the better path from cloud, through utility wires to earthborne charges beyond the house. More surges will seek that connection, destructively through the house IF earthing (and that protector) is not upgraded. Geology is important to understanding a solution.

If damage occurs even with a 'whole house' protector, then earthing is insufficient - must be upgraded. All protectors need earthing that both meets and exceeds post 1990 code. If that is not sufficient, better solutions including Ufer grounds or looping the building with a buried ground wire. But again, critical is the single point ground. If cable or telephone are not earthed to the same electrode as AC electric, then a human has made surge damage possible.

More factors that determine surge protection. What makes a protector better during each surge? Upgrade the earthing. What makes a protector last longer? Life expectancy of a protector increases exponentially by increasing its current number (or joules). More joules in a protector means the protector absorb even less energy. Diverts even more energy into the only thing that provides protection - earth ground.

No way around this reality. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Oh dear he's back. *This* is why the last one was a religious discussion.

That APC is the type of protector that creates house fires.
House fires occur when a MOV generates enough heat to start a burn in the surrounding material. In two decades of working with literally thousands of APC UPS units randing from 120VA to several thousand VA, I have never witnessed on catch on fire nor cause something else to catch fire.

The facility I am at right now uses just under 1000 TrippLite and APC UPS's (yes, a building UPS would be more cost effective... but that's not how the budgets worked).

Where are surges - hundreds of thousands of joules - absorbed? How do hundreds of joules inside the APC absorb surges that are hundred of thousands of joules?
Of course surge supressors do not absorb surges, and never claim to. This is either extreme ignorance on the part of the poster or simple dishonesty. In a surge supressor, there is a variable resistor (MOV) which conducts electricity well only over certain thresholds. When that threshold is reached, the MOV shorts the circuit back to ground. In good gear it cuts the path to the equipment; in lesser gear it merely offers a less resistive path to ground.

It does not. APC does not even claim protection in its numeric specs.
APC does indeed guarentee equipment attached to their UPS's from damage from surge or spike. The guarentee is on their website and printed on the boxes their equipment comes in (and in their literature)

Effective protection is about where energy dissipates - harmlessly in earth. A protector only connects energy to protection. A protector is not protection. It is only a connecting device.
This is actually a generally true statement. As I mentioned above: a surge supressor works by removing the attached equipment as a path of least resistance for the surge.

For any who don't know: westom's sole goal on this board seems to be a rant against TECO, the local power company (and for some reason surge supressors: though he often cites companies that make surge supression when attempting to support his case). He has a website dedicated to just that and making many of the same claims you will see him post ad nauseum here.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Protectors are installed for events that occur typically once every seven years. A number that can vary significantly even within town. For example, a home located at the end of a power line can be the better path from cloud, through utility wires to earthborne charges beyond the house. More surges will seek that connection, destructively through the house IF earthing (and that protector) is not upgraded. Geology is important to understanding a solution.

If damage occurs even with a 'whole house' protector, then earthing is insufficient - must be upgraded. All protectors need earthing that both meets and exceeds post 1990 code. If that is not sufficient, better solutions including Ufer grounds or looping the building with a buried ground wire. But again, critical is the single point ground. If cable or telephone are not earthed to the same electrode as AC electric, then a human has made surge damage possible.
I asked "If that Intermatic takes a hard hit, is it still "good as new" or is it somehow less capable than new?" because even though I'm in town, we get some pretty spectacular lightning and it's very close to my house. All incoming cabling is grounded to the panels in the basement and they're well bonded and grounded. The ground was replaced in '97 with the service upgrade and I have no problem with flickering or dimming lights. Since I know the life of some electrical components decreases with high current conduction and in some cases, extremely high voltage, I assumed MOVs are similar when it comes to large surges from nearby lightning strikes.

I'll also assume that if someone has a multi-family house with more than one meter, each panel fed by a meter should get a suppressor, right?
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
I asked "If that Intermatic takes a hard hit, is it still "good as new" or is it somehow less capable than new?"
All MOV's fail over use. In the best of systems, there is a thermal fuse that causes the entire supressor to stop conducting should the MOV overheat. Without this fuse, a failure of the MOV (if it doesn't start a fire) results in the supressor conducting power, but not supressing.
 
W

westom

Audioholic
I asked "If that Intermatic takes a hard hit, is it still "good as new" or is it somehow less capable than new?" because even though I'm in town, we get some pretty spectacular lightning and it's very close to my house.
You are asking a question without numbers. Subjective questions result in subjective answers that are not very informative No one can provide a better answer than what was previously posted since you do not define your environment or the numbers.

What happens during a 20,000 amp strike? Well, maybe 5,000 enter your wires. Another 5,000 in each other home that are also 'whole house' protected. Maybe another 10,000 amp via the primary protection system. A transient that occurs maybe once every seven years. As stated before, so average and infrequent that even a minimal 50,000 amps protector remains fully functional. For a better answer, you must first provide numbers.

All protectors must earth direct lightning strikes and be functional. A problem with inferior plug-in protectors that are sometimes so unsized as to fail. So undersized as to promote a 'sacrificial' myth. That 'whole house' protector properly sized also because plug-in protectors need that protection.

Nearby lightning strikes are irrelevant. Earth one 'whole house' protector for what typically overwhelms protection inside appliances - the direct strike. A strike down the street is (potentially) a direct strike to your appliances - not a nearby strike.

Without numbers, nobody can answer your question. An Intermatic is more than sufficient for most homes. The protector typically remains fully functional even after a typical direct lightning strike. But your 'system' remains incomplete until every incoming wire has been integrated into that solution.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
If that Intermatic takes a hard hit, is it still "good as new" or is it somehow less capable than new? I have looked at that one at Menard's and have been thinking about getting one.
Let me apologize in advance for my dopey analogy below::D
One way of thinking of the Intermatic or any device that uses MOV's, is that they slowly wear out like a pair of shoes. So like a pair of shoes, they will still perform well at 80%; though they aren't "good as new"

My panel is in my garage; so on my way in every night, I glance over and can see my green LED's glowing.
So I know all is well.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Most surge-related damage is not caused by lightning.

Far more common, are surges (TVSS - transient voltage surge suppression) caused by line slap, downed power lines, sudden changes in electricity use by a nearby factory, or even the cycling on and off of electric dryers, air conditioners, refrigerators. The damage inflicted by these minor power fluctuations can be instantaneous, but may not show up for some time.

Guarding against surges requires a two layered approach.
A whole-house suppressor to tame the big, power spikes and an individual circuit (or plug-in) surge suppressor for appliances and electronic devices. Both types act like pressure-relief valves.A good UPS is a nice addition too.

Even the best surge suppressor can't do its job if the house doesn't have the proper ground system; there has to be a single path for the diverted energy.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
You are asking a question without numbers. Subjective questions result in subjective answers that are not very informative No one can provide a better answer than what was previously posted since you do not define your environment or the numbers.

What happens during a 20,000 amp strike? Well, maybe 5,000 enter your wires. Another 5,000 in each other home that are also 'whole house' protected. Maybe another 10,000 amp via the primary protection system. A transient that occurs maybe once every seven years. As stated before, so average and infrequent that even a minimal 50,000 amps protector remains fully functional. For a better answer, you must first provide numbers.

All protectors must earth direct lightning strikes and be functional. A problem with inferior plug-in protectors that are sometimes so unsized as to fail. So undersized as to promote a 'sacrificial' myth. That 'whole house' protector properly sized also because plug-in protectors need that protection.

Nearby lightning strikes are irrelevant. Earth one 'whole house' protector for what typically overwhelms protection inside appliances - the direct strike. A strike down the street is (potentially) a direct strike to your appliances - not a nearby strike.

Without numbers, nobody can answer your question. An Intermatic is more than sufficient for most homes. The protector typically remains fully functional even after a typical direct lightning strike. But your 'system' remains incomplete until every incoming wire has been integrated into that solution.
I wasn't asking for a number, I was asking if the life is shortened appreciably after strikes. The fact that the Intermatic have a 5 year warranty tells me that they should last a while even if multiple surges occur but obviously, it's hard to tell. I was looking for anecdotal comments.

My 'system'- you mean my duplex? I agree and was looking for confirmation of my comment. There's no cross-connection of any circuits, other than grounding/bonding after the meters but I wouldn't mind saving a few sheckles if I can. The rental unit doesn't have much in the way of expensive electronics but for the price of these, it's a pretty cheap way to do a better job than just a bunch of power strips.
 
W

westom

Audioholic
I wasn't asking for a number, I was asking if the life is shortened appreciably after strikes. The fact that the Intermatic have a 5 year warranty tells me that they should last a while even if multiple surges occur but obviously, it's hard to tell.
Unfortunately, there is no useful (honest) anecdotal reply - without numbers. Since a surge is typically once every seven years, then, well, notice the many who recommend replacing surges protectors every year. Recommend only because salesmen (and urban myth purveyors) claim protectors wear out.

Yes, everything wears out. Switches are typically rated for 100,000 cycles. Why is that number so important? Because it means power cycling 8 times every day for 34 years. So, do switches wear out? Yes. What does hearsay claim? No. Because a 34 year failure rate says switches do not fail. A perspective that only numbers can provide.

Earthing one 'whole house' protector on both units means each protector only adds protection to other units. What happens if your tenant uses a plug-in protector? Scary pictures posted some ten posts ago demonstrate another reason why you want a 'whole house' protector installed. Plug-in protectors need protection only provided by an earthed 'whole house' protector.

For others - Intermatic is only one manufacturer of effective 'whole house' protectors. A solution that costs about $1 per protected appliance. Other responsible companies include General Electric, Polyphaser, Keison, Leviton, Square D, and Siemens. Lowes sells a Cutler-Hammer (Eaton) solution. Earthing must be upgraded to both meet and exceed post 1990 code requirements. Many electricians do not understand how to exceed code - are not trained in concepts that, for example, ham radio operators would better understand. Earthing (not a protector) provides protection. Better protection is achieved by redirecting money away from plug-in protectors and towards upgraded earthing. Earthing – must be single point. Everything earthed to the same electrode.

Contrary to popular myth, plug-in protectors do not provide a second layer (despite what Rickerst71 has posted). Each protection layer is defined by the only item that creates protection - earth ground. Above discusses the secondary protection layer. Primary protection layer also should be inspected. The only component that defines each protection layer must be inspected - such as this primary protection layer:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Why is this not often known? Who will spend money to advertise what really provides protection? How do they profit by telling the truth? An overwhelming majority only hear myths and half truths about magic boxes rather than learn about what makes any protector effective - earth ground.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Earthing one 'whole house' protector on both units means each protector only adds protection to other units. What happens if your tenant uses a plug-in protector? Scary pictures posted some ten posts ago demonstrate another reason why you want a 'whole house' protector installed. Plug-in protectors need protection only provided by an earthed 'whole house' protector.

For others - Intermatic is only one manufacturer of effective 'whole house' protectors. A solution that costs about $1 per protected appliance. Other responsible companies include General Electric, Polyphaser, Keison, Leviton, Square D, and Siemens. Lowes sells a Cutler-Hammer (Eaton) solution. Earthing must be upgraded to both meet and exceed post 1990 code requirements. Many electricians do not understand how to exceed code - are not trained in concepts that, for example, ham radio operators would better understand. Earthing (not a protector) provides protection. Better protection is achieved by redirecting money away from plug-in protectors and towards upgraded earthing. Earthing – must be single point. Everything earthed to the same electrode.
I wasn't actually going to try to cover both units with one protector- I'd need to bypass the meter or connect both panels together, which isn't gonna happen.

I have been to all three big box stores in MKE and none stock any of these. I have seen them in the past but one guy (at Menard's) told me that Intermatic is out of business. along with Malibu Lighting. Seemed far-fetched, so I looked online when I got home and Intermatic's site is still up. I called a distributor and was told that they still breathing but have cut down on the products that are less mainstream. Home Depot and Lowe's just don't stock them here. I got home too late to call any of the local supply houses, but I'll check with them tomorrow.
 
W

westom

Audioholic
Home Depot and Lowe's just don't stock them here.
Lowes stores routinely carry Cutler-Hammer. Home Depot stopped carrying Intermatic for a short time. Some currently carry it again. And both retailers have 'whole house' protectors from their web site. Home Depot also sells them through their 'handyman repair' service - whatever they call it.

Most employees have no idea what a 'whole house' protector is. Most will direct you elsewhere to the ineffective plug-in protectors. 'Whole house' protectors are usually stocked in the breaker box and circuit breaker section. And most every eclectic supply house carries them.

Many Lowes have a locked case up front near checkout. For what? I don't know. But I often see 'whole house' protectors inside that case.

Unfortunately few salesmen have never heard of 'whole house' protectors. It is the well proven, 100 year old science. It is the only solution used in high reliability facilities such as the telco switching center (CO). And yet most only know what advertising says; not the science and not numbers. When selling a $3 power strip with some ten cent parts even for $150, then a big screen TV salesman may spend more time selling a protector than the TV. Most only heard of plug-in protectors because profit margins pay for popular hearsay.

Lowes routinely carries the Cutler Hammer solution. Home Depot does not always carry Intermatic. If your store does not have it, the better informed salesmen can locate which adjacent stores do have it – and how many are in stock. Another example of better informed salesmen.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
I really tried to come up with a post that wasn't a line-by-line because I know they are not as readable... but there's so much in here that really rebuffs itself.

Since a surge is typically once every seven years,
This is a good example. Where is this statistic from? I suspect it's simply invented.

Recommend only because salesmen (and urban myth purveyors) claim protectors wear out.

Yes, everything wears out.
Or this immediate self-contradiction that wearing out is a myth followed by admitting that things wear out. The followup

Switches are typically rated for 100,000 cycles. Why is that number so important? Because it means power cycling 8 times every day for 34 years. So, do switches wear out? Yes. What does hearsay claim? No. Because a 34 year failure rate says switches do not fail.
There's no one advocating replacing switches. We are talking about MOVs, which have a definate life-time. Many (most) of us have had surge supressors with MOV indicators. I'd bet most all of us have seen those indicators fail.

Of course he's railing against a hypothetical person that doesn't exist. Since no one has advocated yearly replacement of surge supressors, it's a straw man.

Earthing one 'whole house' protector on both units means each protector only adds protection to other units. What happens if your tenant uses a plug-in protector? Scary pictures posted some ten posts ago demonstrate another reason why you want a 'whole house' protector installed. Plug-in protectors need protection only provided by an earthed 'whole house' protector.
The only valid point here is that a MOV makes heat. The more power moving through it, the more heat it makes. It is possible for a heating MOV to melt / set fire to the surrounding material.

I suspect that places like consumer reports (likely UL) and google will provide information as to which surge supressors are prone to catching fire to themselves or things around them.

Mind you, this is not a problem restricted to local MOVs. Whole-House units also produce heat and can heat to failure. However, these are more often in steel on concrete and so unlikely to start a fire.

Earthing (not a protector) provides protection. Better protection is achieved by redirecting money away from plug-in protectors and towards upgraded earthing. Earthing – must be single point. Everything earthed to the same electrode.
Of course this completly ignores that no amount of earth is useful without a path to that earth.

Shall we run the AC straight to the ground? In that case our meter will spin wildly, no power will reach our appliances, and likely the transformer on the poll will fail.

So no. What we need is a bridge between the AC and the ground that allows excess power (surges) to go to the ground line while not providing a path of least resistance to normal power.

The most common such bridge is a MOV, a type of vari-resistor. You can find these on whole-house and plug-in protectors.

Contrary to popular myth, plug-in protectors do not provide a second layer (despite what Rickerst71 has posted). Each protection layer is defined by the only item that creates protection - earth ground.
Either semantics or simply wrong.

Obviously a surge which occurs inside the wiring may not find the shortest path to be through an external ground.

As an example: I once plugged a floppy power cable in upside down. The house surge supressor didn't help and neither did the plug-in protector. Why? Because the short didn't cross either. The power-supply blew, and the motherboard was never quite right again.

Why is this not often known? Who will spend money to advertise what really provides protection? How do they profit by telling the truth? An overwhelming majority only hear myths and half truths about magic boxes rather than learn about what makes any protector effective - earth ground.
This poster used to cite the millitary and the like. I'm waiting for him to do it again (the millitary uses both types of supressors). Go find the old thread in the surge supression area. He's basically cut-n-paste.
 
W

westom

Audioholic
I really tried to come up with a post that wasn't a line-by-line because I know they are not as readable... but there's so much in here that really rebuffs itself.
If JerryLove knew reality, then he would have cited sources, facts, and numbers for his challenges. His post is classic of how Rush Limbaugh does it. Rather than confront reality, he posts mockery. Limbaugh, for example, used the same technique to attack "Hillary".

In any location where damage cannot happen, plug-in protectors are not used. Always installed is the well proven solution. Either the protector connected destructive energy harmlessly to earth. Or it somehow and magically absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. JerryLove could not dispute the facts. Instead he posts mockery.

The US Air Force manuals for surge protection are quite specific. No plug-in protectors are recommended. US Air Force bluntly defines the required protector:
> 15. Surge Protection.
> 15.1. Entering or exiting metallic power, intrusion detection, communication antenna,
> and instrumentation lines must have surge protection sized for lightning surges to reduce
> transient voltages to a harmless level. Install the surge protection as soon as practical
> where the conductor enters the interior of the facility. Devices commonly used for this
> include metal oxide varistors, gas tube arresters, and transzorbs.

"As soon as practical where the conductor enters..." That is a 'whole house' protector with a short connection to earth. Manuals demand 'whole house' protectors sized to make even direct lightning strikes irrelevant. 'Whole house' protectors for residences do same. No plug-in protector because the Air Force needs effective protection - not myths. And because the Air Force is into reality; not into mockery based in zero technical knowledge, no facts, and no numbers.
The only valid point here is that a MOV makes heat. The more power moving through it, the more heat it makes.
Had JerryLove first read manufacturer datasheets: superior protector (more joules) means it absorbs even less energy. Hearsay and myths promote ineffective protectors that must absorb energy. A superior protector means less energy is absorbed AND more energy dissipates harmlessly in earth – contrary to what JerryLove believes.

This would only be known to those who first learned before posting – ie who read MOV datasheets. Even wire absorbs energy when conducting energy. Like wire, the better protector absorbs even less energy which is not what urban myth purveyors were told to believe. And which is why a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Protection is always and only about where energy gets dissipated.

How does that few hundred joules in a protector absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? JerryLove must avoid that (and so many other) embarrassing question. Where is the plug-in manufacturer numeric spec that claims surge protection? JerryLove cannot provide that either … because it does not exist. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Reality that does not change no matter how many times he posts disparagement.
 

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