Sunfire Ultimate 7.1 Receiver Review!!!!!!&#33

[Tee-HTF]

<font color='#000000'>Nice review on this piece.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_....03.html</font>

 

[Audioholics]

<font color='#000080'>My favorite: <table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sunfire's Holographic Imaging is a very clever circuit. Its effect is to widen the soundstage, and here is how it works. When you are sitting in front of two speakers, your left ear hears mostly the left speaker, but also some of what is coming out of the right speaker. Your right ear hears mostly the right speaker, but also some of the left speaker's output. This reduces the soundstage width. Holographic Imaging takes a little of the left speaker output, inverts it, and sends it to the right speaker. It correspondingly takes some of the right speaker output, inverts it, and sends it to the left speaker. The effect is to reduce the amount of right speaker output heard by the left ear, and to reduce the amount of left speaker output heard by the right ear. This widens the soundstage. It really does work nicely for stereo music listening. Of course, there is always a price for any signal manipulation, and I found that it reduced the amount of detail in the sound, probably because each speaker was now trying to reproduce a bit of the other channel along with its own signal.</td></tr></table>

OK, so Bob Carver apparently invented using an in-line EQ and sending out of phase signals to speakers? You can get a much poorer version of holographic imaging used for surround sound. Just pick up any sub-$200 boom box and it's sure to have a button that does something very similar.

I have to say, I personally, just haven't been impressed with the Sunfire line so far. Here is why I don't think this receiver is a bargain:
<ul><li>$4200 and it has the same bland chassis as other units in the series. This is touted as a &quot;cost-saving feature&quot;. For $4000, I think you deserve a nicer looking unit. Obviously, this is just my opinion.<li>Holographic Imaging is the most &quot;innovative&quot; feature on this unit and it involves sending out of phase signal to your main speakers.<li>&quot;These days, consumers are moving towards component video for DVD players...&quot; No, actually, these days people are moving towards DVI connections.<li>Only one firewire connection<li>No innovation to speak of in terms of some of the advances other receivers are putting out for the same money (room EQ, an abundance of high-end DACs, etc)<li>From audioreview: &quot;At a total rated output of 1,400 watts, the Sunfire is incredibly light and weighs just 32 pounds. This is accomplished by using an unusually efficient amplifier, which Sunfire calls a &quot;tracking downconverter power amp&quot; (another catchy name), that combines smart circuits with elements of switching-mode power supplies to eliminate much of the heat and bulk of conventional amps.&quot; 32 pounds and supposedly puts out 200 x 7? I don't think so. This unit weighs half as much as its competition and efficiency ain't gonna cut it.</ul></font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Tee;

That review reads more like marketing literature than a critical review.  What the review doesn't tell you is the lacking features of this product that no receiver in this price range suffers from such as:

1) limited to 1dB channel trim adjustments
2) no subwoofer group delay adjustment
3) one global channel trim setting for all modes of operation
4) limited bass management (no bass management on 6CH inputs, no sub out in 2CH direct mode).
5) average DAC implementation and average resulting SNR.
6) Host of firmware bugs, not sure if they have all been worked out
7) no component video up conversion
8) No OSD via component video
9) No THX certification
10) Extra amp needed to power the side effect channels. (For this price, they should have included a lower power amp, just like Yamaha does on their new RX-Z9).

for more details, see our review of the Sunfire Theater Grand III which their Ultimate receiver design is based upon.
Sunfire Theater Grand III

As for the 200wpc x 7, it is unlikely that is with all channels driven continuously and simultaneously !!! The power supply is not capable of delivering this.  To my knowledge, not one magazine or reviewer has ever tested any Sunfire amps with all channels driven.  While its not a likely real world scenario, I feel it is dishonest for a company to imply this.  I would personally take the cleaner and lower noise floor amps offered by other receiver vendors at the sacrifice of 20 or 30wpc.  Also note that the Sunfire spec of 200wpc is typically at 10 times the distortion rating of other vendors.  If one were to drive the amps of other receivers just near the point of clipping, it is not rare to see the power figures go up about 5-10%.

At $4200, IMO, this receiver is not even in the same league as their competition.  However, if one desires a nice looking box, with brightly light lights that serve no operational function, while not demanding the most accurate, nor cleanest home theater reproduction than this receiver is your ticket.  

The two advantages of this product are
1) this receiver/processor is relatively easy to operate, partly because of all its lacking features.
2) it comes with its own glass shelf.  How innovative

[edited: spelling]</font>

 

[Tee-HTF]

<font color='#000000'>You guys bring up valid points! Glad you chimed in to give your views, also i forgot you guys did a review on this peice.</font>

 

[Rob Babcock]

<font color='#000000'>I agree that seems like a lot of money for what you get, but one must be careful not to make sweeping generalizations about the reciever because the TGIII didn't get a good review. &nbsp;They certainly may share a lot of technology, maybe most of it, I honestly don't know. &nbsp;But in the interest of being objective, you've got to be careful not to pounce on to fiercely without having heard it.

That said, $4200 does seem like a lot of money for what you get *spec-wise*.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Rob;

Very good points. &nbsp;Objectivity is key. &nbsp;However, prior to Sunfire sending us the TGIII, they confirmed that their Ultimate receiver is virtually an identical processor with a built in amp section. &nbsp;That being said, we haven't personally listened to the Ultimate receiver thus we will not pass final judgement. &nbsp;However, based on the fact it has the same hardware/software limitations as the TGIII it is safe to assume the performance and flexibility may suffer accordingly.</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>Long time back as a college student I worked for a big audio chain in Brooklyn. They were dealers for Carver, Canton, NAD, SONY ES, Altec Lansing, ADVENT and one of the four high end Yamaha dealers in NY.

I had a chance to extensively audition the Carver TFM 45, part of the lure was the huge advertised watts in a relatively small package and also the fact that the Carver guys came to our shop with a pair of their tube amp namely and Silver 9t. To demonstrate their TFM technology they gave a side by side demo of the solid state TFM 45 with their super expensive Silver9t. They were able to convince us that the lower cost TFM 45 sounded same as their super expensive amp. Needless to say, I bought myself the Carver TFM45 and took it home and connected it to a pair of Altec Lansing floorstanders. Previously I was using a SONY TA-540ES Legato Linear amp. The Carver amp?s power output was rated way above the SONY?s

After the initial euphoria of a listening to a high powered amp(dynamics mostly), the honeymoon ended abruptly as the Carver sounded way hollow, almost souless. Interestingly the Carver and the SONY weighed about the same despite the SONY being rated way lower. The SONY compared to the Carver sounded way richer and the sound spectrum was way better.

In the shop the Carver was quite a hit with people looking for higher watts and soon we sold quite a few. Within months most of the Carver customers were bringing back their amps for blown caps or they would tell us that the sound is crap and they needed an exchange. I see that Bob Carver hasn?t changed a bit today, he is still selling his gimmicks, and the Sunfire is a prime example of it. It weighs way less than my DSP-AZ1 and yet the poor Yamaha develops a measly 130watts per channel max. However in sound quality the Yamaha, Denon and Marantz easily blows the Sunfire away. I would rather have a high quality low noise amp than a power generator although the Sunfire?s claim of 200x7 is a bit dubious going by Carver?s previous records. Carver?s Sonic Hollography is another example of his gimmick; all he is doing is adding more distortion to the signal path. Sadly like his tube in the output stage CD players, Sonic Hollograhy as another thing which was more of a sales literature publicity stunt rather than a valid technology per se?. If you want 2 channel surround then check out Hughes Lab?s highly successful SRS system which has been developed for NASA for training purposes and is also used by USAF. This is one technology which has been developed using the human brain?s sound direction perceptions and is biologically accurate and is very close to silent cinema technology used by Yamaha for listening to surround sound with headphones. The DSP sections in a Yamaha derived from their musical instruments are far superior compared to most separate and so are the Denon, SONY ES and Pioneer Elite with their far superior DSP and amp sections.


It still surprises me that people are still gullible to all the sales hoopla of the dying separates world when top of the line receivers from Denon, Yamaha, SONY ES, Marantz etc. have so much to offer with less price. I guess the whim is a hard thing to fathom in the human mind. The Yamaha and Denon amps used in their high end receivers are far superior to the Sunfire and can equal or better most of the separates out there on the marker today and I am sure Gene would second me on this. My hats off to Bob Carver for selling a 32lb amp with 200x7 when my anemic 62lb Yamaha 2 channel amp can only muster a measly 260Wx2. I really admire this guy; don?t blame him though as it is an average buyer who falls for the hype, like everyone else he is in this market to make money.

Love the glass look though as Carver always knew the art of aesthetic appeal, his previous offering managed to look really serious with the black finish rack mounted look.

</font>

 

[Rob Babcock]

<font color='#000000'>I didn't know for sure that the receiver used the same electronics. &nbsp;I sure don't doubt your integrity, but thanks for clearing that up.

As for Sunfire/Carver, my experiences have been quite different. &nbsp;I've still got a pair of Carver amps about 10 years old, and they sound great, with bottomless power and control. &nbsp;And as far as I can tell, the new Sunfires are as bulletproof as an amp can get.

I used to use my Carvers to run some Hsu subs; eventually I decided to go back to the Hsu amp, but only because it has the required electronics built in that my subs need (ie, low pass, infrasonic filter &amp; the eq needed for flat response). &nbsp;But I hated to unhitch the Carver: &nbsp;compared to the A/B Hsu amp, the carver exhibited better control and considerably more slam. &nbsp;The steely sense of power was amazing, and I felt it offered more finesse, too.

Oh, well. &nbsp;To each his own. &nbsp;I still have those amps and they still work well.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Yamahaluver;

I will personally vouche on your comments regarding SRS, Nasa research on human hearing, etc.  I am currently doing such research at my day job and the level of detail and involvement on this topic is stunning.  

I have little direct experience with Carver amps, and you probably already gathered, I was unimpressed with the latest offerings from Sunfire in this regard.  However, others may have different experiences in their set-ups and applications.

What is surprising is how far receivers have come.  I never thought I would see the day where I would be such an advocate for them.  Don't get me wrong there are still phenominal separates solutions out there, and money no object, they are still usually the way to go for the most serious home theater applications for the most critical of audiences.  It just amazes me the bang/buck you now get with receivers today.  Hurray capitalism

Rob;

I understand where you are coming from.  If your Carver amps are serving you well, more power to you.  Usually the amps in many subwoofers today aren't top notch compared to full range audiophile amplifiers,  so it doesn't surprise me that you prefer your Carver amps to the original ones in your sub.  

Ultimately, all products have tradeoffs and there isn't a perfect product out there to suit everyones needs simultaneously.  If there were, I would by stock in that company.  However, ones objective when acquiring new gear should be to pick a product they are happy with in performance and price, and has the fewest tradeoffs for their application.

[edited: added comments to respond to Rob's prior post]</font>

 

[Rob Babcock]

<font color='#000000'>I'm not beating the drum for Carver, by any means. &nbsp;As a matter of fact, I'm on the verge of buying all new amps to replace my mish-mash of amps. &nbsp;Just saying that I've not had any reliability issues with mine.

My next amps will be Carver Professional digital amps: &nbsp;the company that makes them is owned by Pheonix Gold and is in no way affiliated w/Bob Carver (the name a coincidence only). &nbsp;I've heard great things about their implementation of Tripath amp technology, we shall see how they sound.</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>

gene : <font color='#000000'>Yamahaluver;

I will personally vouche on your comments regarding SRS, Nasa research on human hearing, etc.  I am currently doing such research at my day job and the level of detail and involvement on this topic is stunning.  



What is surprising is how far receivers have come.  I never thought I would see the day where I would be such an advocate for them.  Don't get me wrong there are still phenominal separates solutions out there, and money no object, they are still usually the way to go for the most serious home theater applications for the most critical of audiences.  It just amazes me the bang/buck you now get with receivers today.  Hurray capitalism

</font>

<font color='#0000FF'>Call me a capitalist pig but if it werent for that, I wouldnt be enjoying the fruits of it.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Well I'm still listening to my old junk Theatergrand II...I wish I could trade up to one of those Hi-end Mid-Fi units you guys are so crazy about, guess I should go over to Circut City and Best Buy and have a listen to the new receivers, while I'm there I can check out those booze speakers I'm sure you guys would also give rave reviews.</font>

 

[Audioholics]

<font color='#000080'>Eh? You obviously haven't read our articles. Give our review another look and don't get insulted, just realize that there are lots of options for the price of a TGIII. It's only fair to want the best bang for your buck, both in terms of quality and features.

I personally hope you enjoy your TGII, but don't broadbrush us if we critically review a piece of gear. The alternative is to only publish glowing reviews and not criticize anything - we don't want to be that kind of website. We're too honest about our opinions.

Heck, I can critique every piece of my own gear - I don't get offended. Does no good. If everybody is a bit more critical (in the good sense of the word) we'll have more competition and better gear all around.</font>

 

[Tee-HTF]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Heck, I can critique every piece of my own gear - I don't get offended. Does no good. If everybody is a bit more critical (in the good sense of the word) we'll have more competition and better gear all around.</td></tr></table>

I can agree i don't think their will ever be a perfect peice of gear because someone is bound to find something they do not like. Just like we all don't hear the same or we like a certain sound bright, warm or what ever pleases us. I think in the end it all about what we like. I for one do not buy my gear for any other ears but my own, but i do like to hear and read other opinons for fun. I also was wrong you guys did a review on the HTGIII not the receiver.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well I'm still listening to my old junk Theatergrand II...I wish I could trade up to one of those Hi-end Mid-Fi units you guys are so crazy about, guess I should go over to Circut City and Best Buy and have a listen to the new receivers, while I'm there I can check out those booze speakers I'm sure you guys would also give rave reviews. </td></tr></table>

Hmm, last time I checked you couldn't buy Denon, Yamaha, or Pioneer Elite flagship receivers at Best Buy or Circuit City.  In fact a few of the specialty shops I did visit carried these 64lb receivers and had them in the same room as the smaller and lighter 32lb Sunfire.

In any event, its great to hear your success story with your Sunfire product.  Last year when I bought a new car, it received nothing but glowing reviews in the auto mags, now after owning it for some time I found many limitations that left me with a little buyers remorse.  I sure wish I could have had access to a critical review prior to buying to at least make me aware of these issues.  Sometimes the truth hurts.

Flintstone, we appreciate your inputs and encourage you to register and post your reference system in this forum.

[edited: added quote from Flintstone]</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>I briefly demoed a Sunfire Ultimate receiver at a dealer and found it to sound thin and too noisy, thus I went home with a Denon AVR-5803 instead...</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>A wise decison, one which you wont regret, the Denon is a good peice of equipment.</font>

 

[flintstone]

<font color='#000000'>I am registered gene, I just don't come to this forum very often. I have registered on many forum sites but for the most part only participate on a couple of them. The Audiogon forum is fun to read but loaded with hi-end snobs that like to trash bang for buck products (bells and whistles) as they call them. Your site seems to cater to the bang for buck crowd that likes to trash the high end products in my opinion..Me, I'm pretty much in both camps which is more than likely why I get frustrated at both forums and when I do participate it can be more of a rant sometimes. I do understand that this hobby is full of opinion and we each have our own set of priorities and needs, mine seem to change over time as I am now 53 years of age and started in this hobby as a teenager listening to AM radio and mono record player, My first stereo blew me away and I've been hooked like a fish from that day. As far as the Sunfire receiver goes, I've never listened to it and would never spend that kind of money on any receiver, there is a price point in my opinion that receivers are a poor value..the Sunfire is well above it. My system is geared for multichannel music and two channel music with movies holding the least importent role, but still importent enough that I will be soon getting rid of the RPTV and going with a FPTV and large wall screen for DVD and HDTV. I would have listed my system as you asked gene but saw no system listings.

Dave</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Dave;

We cater to products that live up to their advertised performance regardless of price, brand, product appeal, where you can buy it, etc. &nbsp;However, quite often more the case then not, many exotic products, especially cables, usually don't live up to their claims, and in many cases perform worse than more conservatively priced gear. &nbsp;

See: &nbsp;Speaker Cable Faceoff I

FYI; we have reviewed both ends of the spectrum with respect to home theater equipment, and our staff personally owns equipment from both respected price points. &nbsp;

What troubles us is when the &quot;audio snobs&quot;, as you put it, make claims that high audiophile performance cannot be achieved with a receiver, or with normal 12AWG Zip Cord speaker wire. &nbsp;Most of these people making these claims have little or no background in electircal engineering, nor do they have the understanding of the basic principles of sound. &nbsp;This is one of the reasons why Audioholics.com was founded, well that, plus we love to play with the latest gear the industry has to offer &nbsp;

In any event, receivers aren't for everyone, and separates definately have their place. &nbsp;What is sad is most people fail to realize that usually the majority of problems preventing their systems from achieving audiophile performance is their room acoustics, poorly designed speaker selection, speaker positioning and set-up. &nbsp;This is the next avenue we will explore on Audioholics.com.

If you wish to post your reference system, you may do so here or submit it to clint@audioholics.com.

Members Systems

BTW, I don't beleive you will find rave reviews of booze type speakers here. &nbsp;FYI, check out:

Speaker Face Off I

Placement Suggestions for Cubed Speakers

Marketing Influence on our Government

Also, check out our wide gamut of product reviews that should appeal to all home theater enthusiasts price points.
Staff Product Reviews</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>S&amp;V a magazine did test the receiver with 6 channels driven and found it to be over 150 watts and 183 watts into 5 channels, they also state that the receiver is the most powerful receiver they have ever tested

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/2242003135320.pdf

just for the record, i have a rotel, so i dont want to hear that i am super pro sunfire....

the sonic holography is not a joke though, its pretty good, has to be set up correctly though,

as for the comment about the components in and everyone moving to dvi, well, thats kind of pointless...name 3 receivers with dvi switching currently on the market? also this piece came out what, 9 months ago, or so...name 1 reciever then with dvi switching...

as for innoviations, the 9.1 is probalby an innovation, by most peoples standards, i havent heard it, but i have a friend who heard it in a very large room and he said it did add a lot of depth, granted you need a large room to notice these differences and a separate amp.

also, it may or may not be the only one at this date, but it was at least the first amp to be upgradeable by playing a cd, someo would consider that an innovation...

also, should be pointed out that the street price is about $1000 less...

another innovation may be the automatic turn on, source and dsp selection, though that is not interesting to me, imagine it makes it easier for people who have spouses that are not audio savy...thats is a nice feature...

finally, i consider the sunfire arguably the nicest looking receiver out there, definitely better than the denons, onkyos, and pioneers that are big black boxes without grace....

I would agree that some of the customability features are lacking, especially for a high end receiver targeted to audiophiles, and i could see why that would be a major turnoff to a variety of people, myself included...

Rich</font>