Sub to Main Integration? Advice / help

[MasterMechTech]

Yes, measure them where they are.

So I did my best to get the measurements you requested, I used a laser line & a protractor to try & give these measurements some accuracy.

I could only measure up to 60 degrees on the front left as 90 degrees was inside the front wall

The centre was even worse as I could only measure 0 & 30 degrees. I also could only be 180cm from the speaker as my front row gets in the way.

Had to upload to my Dropbox as apparently the files are to large to upload to the post.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1u834i9cp8zlrje/AAAMJLN9P8_mRSRindfO43Q-a?dl=0

 

[TLS Guy]

So I did my best to get the measurements you requested, I used a laser line & a protractor to try & give these measurements some accuracy.

I could only measure up to 60 degrees on the front left as 90 degrees was inside the front wall

The centre was even worse as I could only measure 0 & 30 degrees. I also could only be 180cm from the speaker as my front row gets in the way.

Had to upload to my Dropbox as apparently the files are to large to upload to the post.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1u834i9cp8zlrje/AAAMJLN9P8_mRSRindfO43Q-a?dl=0

I can not view those files. I do not use drop box and won't. I had a severe disagreement with them years ago and will never have anything to do with them. If you want further advice from me, please do not use Dropbox!

 

[MasterMechTech]

I can not view those files. I do not use drop box and won't. I had a severe disagreement with them years ago and will never have anything to do with them. If you want further advice from me, please do not use Dropbox!

My apologies, like I said I did try to upload them to my post but the forum would not let me due to the file size.

Can you tell me of a file host that you would like me to use?

 

[TLS Guy]

My apologies, like I said I did try to upload them to my post but the forum would not let me due to the file size.

Can you tell me of a file host that you would like me to use?

I do not use any of these type of services. I just press the print screen button, and load to a photo sharing site and post that. It works very well and is simple.

Like this.

Thread 1

Thread 2.

Thread 3

I think those are the sort of results you are looking for.

 

[MasterMechTech]

No problem I can do that I just did not want to spam the thread with images & if I have selected the wrong settings in REW like graph limits or smoothing I will need to reupload the images again vs you being able to view them in REW yourself.

I am guessing looking at the responses my speakers are either total junk or I have measured incorrectly.

 

[TLS Guy]

No problem I can do that I just did not want to spam the thread with images & if I have selected the wrong settings in REW like graph limits or smoothing I will need to reupload the images again vs you being able to view them in REW yourself.

View attachment 34691View attachment 34692View attachment 34693View attachment 34694View attachment 34695View attachment 34696View attachment 34697

Oh dear!

They are not very good speakers. The bass tuning is not correct, with a pronounced peak. The on axis FR of the mains is not the worst in the world, but the off axis response does not mirror the axis response well and that NEVER produces a satisfying sound.

You will note that that 200 Hz dip becomes more pronounced as you move off axis. So the total energy released into the room is deficient in the range you identified in your listening.

I won't comment further on the center speaker except to say that it appears to be a perfectly dreadful speaker.

This is what is required. Here is one of my main speakers. Note that the off axis response mirrors the on axis response. The black line is 90 degrees off axis.

Here is the center. The blue line is the axis. Since this is a coaxial speaker the off axis response if slightly better then the axis response, which is common with coaxial drivers.

Those are the sort of responses required for pleasant listening.

 

[MasterMechTech]

Oh dear!

They are not very good speakers. The bass tuning is not correct, with a pronounced peak. The on axis FR of the mains is not the worst in the world, but the off axis response does not mirror the axis response well and that NEVER produces a satisfying sound.

You will note that that 200 Hz dip becomes more pronounced as you move off axis. So the total energy released into the room is deficient in the range you identified in your listening.

I won't comment further on the center speaker except to say that it appears to be a perfectly dreadful speaker.

This is what is required. Here is one of my main speakers. Note that the off axis response mirrors the on axis response. The black line is 90 degrees off axis.

Here is the center. The blue line is the axis. Since this is a coaxial speaker the off axis response if slightly better then the axis response, which is common with coaxial drivers.

Those are the sort of responses required for pleasant listening.

So at 2 meters away from the speaker how much of the response is the speaker & how much is the room?

I hear 500Hz & below the room is in control to a certain extent.

 

[TLS Guy]

So at 2 meters away from the speaker how much of the response is the speaker & how much is the room?

I hear 500Hz & below the room is in control to a certain extent.

I should have asked you what program and tones you are using.

We now do not use continuous tones to test speakers. We use programs and sources that pulse the tones. This is known as semi anechoic measurement. In practice it is actually pretty good. It is certainly good above 250 Hz, less so below. However I have found even below 250 Hz at close mic range the effect of the room is still minor and you are measuring the speaker and not the room mainly. Now I grant that some rooms may effect it more than others.

So the information I really need is to have precise details of the type of sound source, mic and program you used.

I should say though that I highly doubt all you problems are the room, especially those traces from the center speaker. That has to be a highly improper measuring system or the speaker. However, those audible problems you are objecting to seem to correlate pretty much with what I have seen in your traces. So there is a lot there that is likely from the speakers in any case.

Those measurements I showed you correlate very well with the audible impression. My last room was a little warmer than my new one and that impression is confirmed by the far field measurements from both rooms. This new room does have less lower end coloration and that is reflected in the far field measurements. The close miked traces are very similar between the two rooms. However I have a system that unusually provides for continuously variable BSC correction. I did have to increase the BSC signal a bit to the front three. In any case neither room produced such serious anomalies as you have presented with your traces.

 

[MasterMechTech]

I should have asked you what program and tones you are using.

We now do not use continuous tones to test speakers. We use programs and sources that pulse the tones. This is known as semi anechoic measurement. In practice it is actually pretty good. It is certainly good above 250 Hz, less so below. However I have found even below 250 Hz at close mic range the effect of the room is still minor and you are measuring the speaker and not the room mainly. Now I grant that some rooms may effect it more than others.

So the information I really need is to have precise details of the type of sound source, mic and program you used.

I should say though that I highly doubt all you problems are the room, especially those traces from the center speaker. That has to be a highly improper measuring system or the speaker. However, those audible problems you are objecting to seem to correlate pretty much with what I have seen in your traces. So there is a lot there that is likely from the speakers in any case.

Those measurements I showed you correlate very well with the audible impression. My last room was a little warmer than my new one and that impression is confirmed by the far field measurements from both rooms. This new room does have less lower end coloration and that is reflected in the far field measurements. The close miked traces are very similar between the two rooms. However I have a system that unusually provides for continuously variable BSC correction. I did have to increase the BSC signal a bit to the front three. In any case neither room produced such serious anomalies as you have presented with your traces.

I am using REW & log sweeps so I presume I am using a continuous tone which is incorrect.

The microphone is a MiniDSP UMIK-1 calibrated by Cross Spectrum Labs.

Sound source is from REW via HDMI to my AVR which is then connected to my speakers.

I have tested the chain using a loopback & the response is ruler flat from 10Hz to 20,000Hz. I still generated a sound card calibration file & verified it.

I also see when people are testing speakers they get them up off the floor & away from walls & ceilings to limit reflections which is something I did not do & with the centre being so low to the floor I cannot help but suspect this is being factored into the measurements.

As I am sure you can appreciate nobody wants to hear their speakers are junk but if they are then so be it I will need to sell them & am probably going to go the DIY route as those speakers are tested thoroughly & measurements are posted from trusted sources.

I just want to make sure I am not screwing something up when measuring them leading to incorrect results as it's a lot of work to replace them to only measure the new speakers to find I still have a lacklustre response due to the room, placement or treatment issues.

 

[TLS Guy]

I am using REW & log sweeps so I presume I am using a continuous tone which is incorrect.

The microphone is a MiniDSP UMIK-1 calibrated by Cross Spectrum Labs.

Sound source is from REW via HDMI to my AVR which is then connected to my speakers.

I have tested the chain using a loopback & the response is ruler flat from 10Hz to 20,000Hz. I still generated a sound card calibration file & verified it.

I also see when people are testing speakers they get them up off the floor & away from walls & ceilings to limit reflections which is something I did not do & with the centre being so low to the floor I cannot help but suspect this is being factored into the measurements.

As I am sure you can appreciate nobody wants to hear their speakers are junk but if they are then so be it I will need to sell them & am probably going to go the DIY route as those speakers are tested thoroughly & measurements are posted from trusted sources.

I just want to make sure I am not screwing something up when measuring them leading to incorrect results as it's a lot of work to replace them to only measure the new speakers to find I still have a lacklustre response due to the room, placement or treatment issues.

Do you have the DVD that is included with UMIK for doing this? That gives good results. Unless you do the right test, it does not really mean much.

 

[lovinthehd]

Do you have the DVD that is included with UMIK for doing this? That gives good results. Unless you do the right test, it does not really mean much.

Why would a disc with a mic be more proper than one suggested via the specific software/method involved? Or just what you're accustomed to? I thought you used Omnimic?

 

[MasterMechTech]

I have two UMIK-1's & never got a DVD with them anyway.

 

[TLS Guy]

Why would a disc with a mic be more proper than one suggested via the specific software/method involved? Or just what you're accustomed to? I thought you used Omnimic?

Yes, I'm a confused old man tonight, and yes, I do use Omnimic. However for this it is short tone bursts you need so the room does not have time to affect the measurements. So I have to ask the OP if his set up does have short tone bursts?

 

[MasterMechTech]

No idea, sorry to answer a question with a question but can REW produce short tone bursts?

 

[TLS Guy]

No idea, sorry to answer a question with a question but can REW produce short tone bursts?

I don't use REW. It is more of a room measuring system. I had a look at the manual and you can use logarithmic tone burst and vary the length. However it is complicated. Before you ditch those speakers I would invest in Omnimic and its excellent test discs.

Take a look at this.

It is Joe D'Appolito's writings from which I have learned to do speaker measurements. Omnimic is based on his principles and that is why I use that system. I don't think you can make REW work in an equivalent way.

 

[MasterMechTech]

At $300 that is going to be a hard decision, whilst I am sure the Omnimic is superior to the UMIK-1 that's a large amount of money to spend to take a few measurements.

If I was building speakers I could justify it to myself but with the little knowledge I have I would probably only scratch the surface of what it is capable of.

Being in the UK I would also need to import the Omnimic which has its downsides in terms of customs & duty.

 

[TLS Guy]

At $300 that is going to be a hard decision, whilst I am sure the Omnimic is superior to the UMIK-1 that's a large amount of money to spend to take a few measurements.

If I was building speakers I could justify it to myself but with the little knowledge I have I would probably only scratch the surface of what it is capable of.

Being in the UK I would also need to import the Omnimic which has its downsides in terms of customs & duty.

I had a feeling you were in the UK.

So try setting REW to short burst logarithmic with 50 msec bursts as a starter and see what you get.

 

[lovinthehd]

At $300 that is going to be a hard decision, whilst I am sure the Omnimic is superior to the UMIK-1 that's a large amount of money to spend to take a few measurements.

If I was building speakers I could justify it to myself but with the little knowledge I have I would probably only scratch the surface of what it is capable of.

Being in the UK I would also need to import the Omnimic which has its downsides in terms of customs & duty.

I wouldn't say that about the mics, they're more similar than different. Omnimic comes with more than a mic (test discs and software package in a nice little carry case) and is a bit overpriced IMO. Just more a delivered package (but using REW software is fine, too....altho I do donate so it's not "free"). Actually Omnimic has had issues reported with upper frequency response. You can get a Dayton UMM-6 similarly to the Umik-1, and you can get one thru someone like Cross Spectrum for a more thorough calibration file.

 

[MasterMechTech]

Oh I am sure the microphones are very similar, I was just referring to the "Omnimic" as a whole package as you can't use the software which sets it apart without the microphone.

My UMIK-1 is CSL calibrated & whilst not the most expensive microphone in the world purchasing another microphone whilst having a perfectly good microphone already seems counter intuitive.

I can see the benefits they offer over what I have now but I can't help but think I could find what my issues are with my current gear.

Whilst I am sure I have been blinded by marketing with my current speaker selection & I bet there are many examples of very high end speakers that measure very poorly which is something I have only recently discovered I am kind of hoping to eliminate the room/placement before jumping to the conclusion that these speakers are junk.

Other than taking my speakers outside in the garden & placing them on a step ladder & measuring them to see how they measure without the room influencing the measurements it seems like its going to be very difficult to see how my speakers actually perform & not the room also.

I will have a look at short burst logarithmic, no idea how to use it & can't seem to find it mentioned in the user manual in the quick search I did.