Sub to Main Integration? Advice / help

[MasterMechTech]

Hello all,

I am currently having issues with how my system sounds, I feel the mains do not integrate well with the surround & height speakers.

The best way I can describe it is that the mains sound really loud but the surround/height channels do not.

I double checked all the levels with the SPL meter in REW & a Dolby Atmos demo disk that has test tones just to be sure.

I read that when all the speakers are working together you get this "bubble" effect where you feel immersed in the sound field.

I don't get that effect at all as the mains stick out like a sore thumb & the surrounds seem really quiet.

I also find bass lacking, when I upgraded to the two PB16's I was expecting some decent chest slam but even after using target curves in Dirac that boost bass it has never had that "tactile" response I have been looking for.

That's when I researched into how to best place my subs & learned REW a little.

After three days & over 300 measurements of every place & orientation I could achieve with my subs at each seating position I used the trace arithmetic feature in REW to sum the responses to find the best location for my subs that gave me the best responses over my four seats.

Still not happy with the seat to seat consistency I was recommended M.S.O & with lots of help I managed to get fantastic responses at my four seating positions.

I thought after all this I would be very happy with how the system sounded in regard to bass but it still sounds thin/weak.

I then started to look into sub to main integration as I read its important to get impactful bass & a cohesive soundstage.

After running Dirac I did a sweep of the centre & subs with a 80Hz crossover with REW at my listening position & got this response.

Not happy with the null at around 78Hz I took sweeps of just the subs & the centre channel no crossover applied to see what I am working with.

Looking at the centre channel response it seems to me the null at 68Hz is dragging summed response with the subs & centre are combined? Also the null around 136Hz is not helping.

I did try the sub distance tweak just in case it worked but the more I increase the delay it just seems to move the null around.

I also tried the same with a 100Hz crossover but I got the same results.

Bumping the crossover up to 120Hz gave the best response but this is far from ideal due to how high the crossover is set. Also the response is still not great.

I thought the poor centre channel response could be from floor bounce so I placed an acoustic panel on the floor in front of the centre channel to see what effect it had.

Whilst it helped a little it did not resolve this issue entirely & Its not really practical to have an acoustic panel on the floor.

So I am starting to think I have made mistakes with my room, before decoration & soundproofing the floor I decided to set the system up to see how things performed so if things were not as it like I can change then easily. I am glad I did now.

Here is how my room looks now, its very rough but it works as a dry run for testing.

Please ignore the panels stacked up against the wall on the floor, they are normally not there, the diffusor plates over the panels are temporary also as they were incorrectly manufactured.

My apologies for the long post I probably should have not covered as much as I have but I hope all the information helps.

Any feedback or advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Adam

 

[lovinthehd]

Curious, is this your first surround system? The surround effects are generally subtle, and wouldn't be at the same level as the mains with most content. What content are you judging with? All surround modes sound off to you?

 

[MasterMechTech]

Curious, is this your first surround system? The surround effects are generally subtle, and wouldn't be at the same level as the mains with most content. What content are you judging with? All surround modes sound off to you?

This would be my second surround system, the first was basically a home theatre in a box.

I mainly listen with Dolby Surround, my demo material includes titles like Fury, Oblivion, Everest, Blade Runner 2049, Lone Survivor, Deepwater Horizon & Gravity to name a few.

I have tried DTS X but with such little content out there compared to Atmos I will be honest I have not used it much.

 

[lovinthehd]

This would be my second surround system, the first was basically a home theatre in a box.

I mainly listen with Dolby Surround, my demo material includes titles like Fury, Oblivion, Everest, Blade Runner 2049, Lone Survivor, Deepwater Horizon & Gravity to name a few.

I have tried DTS X but with such little content out there compared to Atmos I will be honest I have not used it much.

Its a comment many new to surround make about the surrounds not being loud enough, or they use the multich-stereo modes, etc, I was just curious. Your current system may just be on a different level than what you're used to, and maybe a flatter response than your HTIB had. You can always bump up the sub trim level a bit to taste, many do. I've seen some comments that some Atmos soundtracks are better than others, couldn't tell you which are which tho as haven't converted over. I have heard the DD+ streams with Atmos metadata tend to be weak, hopefully you're using blurays?

 

[MasterMechTech]

Yes Blu-rays all the way.

No concerns over the responses I posted?

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes Blu-rays all the way.

No concerns over the responses I posted?

Well, not really concerns What's wrong with a higher crossover, you getting some sub localization that way?

 

[MasterMechTech]

Yes & I have tried to improve the centre channel response but I don't seem to be able to.

I tried the panel on the floor as I said, also I removed the front subwoofer in case it was causing SBIR but it did not effect the response.

I have removed the speaker grill (long shot, I know) & tried raising it a little. I reclined all the seats to see if the seat backs were causing a issue but when they where all reclined the response got worse

The response look really bad up to 500Hz & I have not measured the front left or right channel yet which I presume will have similar issues.

 

[TLS Guy]

It is hard to know what to make of all this.

You don't like the sound so there is a problem.

First the levels. The sound should be to the front, like it would be in a live situation.

The surrounds, rear back and ceiling speakers only localize sounds that are actually in that position. In other other words, passing vehicles, planes, doors opening and closing etc.

For music, unless it is antiphonal, the sound should be firmly centered to the front, with the other speakers only providing realistic ambiance. You should never localize to them

Now multimiked pop music does not sound good played through up mixers generally and is best listened to in two channel stereo. Classical music on the other hand usually is enhanced by the upmixers, especially the new ones. But even here results vary.

Your bass problem is difficult to discern at a distance. However what measurement you have suggest s phasing problem at the 80 Hz crossover. Also I have the strong impression your room is way over damped. Usually those treatments I see in your photographs are a severe detriment and not a benefit. Most rooms require no treatment. There are special cases where carefully targeted room treatments can be of benefit. As usual room problems are usually speaker problems. Problems occur if speakers have a poor dispersion pattern. Best results come from speakers with wide dispersion and an off axis response the closely mirrors the axis response.

I don't know what to make of your measurements, especially without knowing what speakers you are using. It is especially helpful if you know of independent measurements of your speakers. I have a feeling that those measurements were done with continuous, rather than pulsed tones. If that is correct your measurements are meaningless.

The microphone should be placed on the tweeter axis, 2 meters away. You should use some octave smoothing or it is hard to know what to make of it all. Measurements should also be made 15, 30, 45, 60 and if possible 90 degrees off axis.

As far as lack of bass, I find people generally run their subs too high. There is not as much deep bass in most program as you think. Most of the sound that is perceived as bass is in the range 80 Hz to 400 Hz. It is speakers being 'weak in the wind' in this range that accounts for a lack of bass more then anything else.

Also there really is a problem with bass management as there is an off the shelf crossover involved with limited ability to be customized. Best results require a crossover customized to speakers and sub, or speakers actually designed for the crossover set up of AVRs and pre/pros. This latter practically never happens and almost always limits optimal results.

Not to discourage you but getting all this perfect is very difficult and seldom achieved. However persistence and patience can usually bring about tolerable and pleasing results.

The bottom line is that much more information is required to really help you.

 

[MasterMechTech]

It is hard to know what to make of all this.

You don't like the sound so there is a problem.

First the levels. The sound should be to the front, like it would be in a live situation.

The surrounds, rear back and ceiling speakers only localize sounds that are actually in that position. In other other words, passing vehicles, planes, doors opening and closing etc.

For music, unless it is antiphonal, the sound should be firmly centered to the front, with the other speakers only providing realistic ambiance. You should never localize to them

Now multimiked pop music does not sound good played through up mixers generally and is best listened to in two channel stereo. Classical music on the other hand usually is enhanced by the upmixers, especially the new ones. But even here results vary.

Your bass problem is difficult to discern at a distance. However what measurement you have suggest s phasing problem at the 80 Hz crossover. Also I have the strong impression your room is way over damped. Usually those treatments I see in your photographs are a severe detriment and not a benefit. Most rooms require no treatment. There are special cases where carefully targeted room treatments can be of benefit. As usual room problems are usually speaker problems. Problems occur if speakers have a poor dispersion pattern. Best results come from speakers with wide dispersion and an off axis response the closely mirrors the axis response.

I don't know what to make of your measurements, especially without knowing what speakers you are using. It is especially helpful if you know of independent measurements of your speakers. I have a feeling that those measurements were done with continuous, rather than pulsed tones. If that is correct your measurements are meaningless.

The microphone should be placed on the tweeter axis, 2 meters away. You should use some octave smoothing or it is hard to know what to make of it all. Measurements should also be made 15, 30, 45, 60 and if possible 90 degrees off axis.

As far as lack of bass, I find people generally run their subs too high. There is not as much deep bass in most program as you think. Most of the sound that is perceived as bass is in the range 80 Hz to 400 Hz. It is speakers being 'weak in the wind' in this range that accounts for a lack of bass more then anything else.

Also there really is a problem with bass management as there is an off the shelf crossover involved with limited ability to be customized. Best results require a crossover customized to speakers and sub, or speakers actually designed for the crossover set up of AVRs and pre/pros. This latter practically never happens and almost always limits optimal results.

Not to discourage you but getting all this perfect is very difficult and seldom achieved. However persistence and patience can usually bring about tolerable and pleasing results.

The bottom line is that much more information is required to really help you.

I appreciate your input & feedback, in regards to providing more information where do I start?

I have the feeling you are correct about the room being over damped, would you recommend removing all of the treatments or just some of them?

My front left & right are Monitor Audio GX200's with a Monitor Audio GXC350 for the centre channel.

All the surround & height speakers are Monitor Audio Radius 90's

The subs are two SVS PB16's.

I guess the only way I am going to know if my speakers have a good off axis response is to measure them myself unless there is a website I can check to see if someone else has measured them?

 

[MasterMechTech]

So I took full range measurements for the mains at each seating location with no EQ & an 80Hz crossover.

I also measured the mains set to "large" at each seating location so the full range signal is only sent to that speaker.

I have attached the REW .mdat files below. I guess you would say seat 1 is the MLP as that is where I sit mainly.

Seat 1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6bnhm0s05k...%201.mdat?dl=0

Seat 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/963os7rirq...%202.mdat?dl=0

Seat 3: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hgk4id5cw0...%203.mdat?dl=0

Seat 4: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l221z7hsgh...%204.mdat?dl=0

If anyone has any suggestions or advice please let me know, I am open to trying anything at this point.

 

[Gmoney]

Man I’m digging your HT room, looks like you spent a lot of time and money setting it up. What gear do you have? Pre-Pro? Flagship AVR? Speakers LCR look like Mid-level audiophile? If you can give TLC Guy and LTHD a little more info on your system. Those two have a Ton of knowledge on gear. I know a good bit but those two are above my pay grade with the knowledge they have. Maybe PENG will chime in.

 

[MasterMechTech]

Hi Gmoney, thanks for the kind words, I am hoping after sound proofing the floor & decoration the room it will look the part.

Receiver: Arcam AVR850

Additional Amp: Emotiva XPA-7 Gen3

Blu-ray Player: Panasonic UB820

Front Speakers: Monitor Audio GX200

Center Channel Speaker: Monitor Audio GXC350

Surround Speakers: Monitor Audio Radius 90

Surround Back Speakers: Monitor Audio Radius 90

Front Height Speakers: Monitor Audio Radius 90

Rear Height Speakers: Monitor Audio Radius 90

Subwoofers: SVS PB16 – x2

Video Display Device: Epson EH-TW9300 - Sony A1E

Screen: Draper Euroscreen FlexWhite 134"

Remote Control: Logitech Harmony Elite

External DSP: MiniDSP 2X4 HD

I am using Blue Jeans Cable speaker & subwoofer cables.

I also have BOSS platforms under each row which I prefer over the Buttkicker LFE's I had for that added tactile bass but these don't generate any SPL & are turned off during measurements.

Hope this helps. If I am missing anything please let me know.

Thanks

Adam

 

[MasterMechTech]

Looking over my measurements the area that stands out to me is between 100Hz & 200Hz, I first though this drop in the response was due poor integration between the mains & subs but this drop in the response is also present in the response of just the mains without the subs.

I have attached images of the responses & circled the area I am referring to.

 

[Pogre]

Did you take any measurements before all that damping? What made you think it was necessary?

*Edit: That is a nice looking theater room, btw.

 

[MasterMechTech]

Did you take any measurements before all that damping? What made you think it was necessary?

*Edit: That is a nice looking theater room, btw.

Thanks again for the kinds words, I do really wish I had taken measurements before I installed all the treatments but at that time I did not even know what REW was.

Now it seems stupid but all my research told me I must treat the first reflection points & if you can use bass traps then do so as it will help with modal ringing & other room issues.

 

[TLS Guy]

Looking over my measurements the area that stands out to me is between 100Hz & 200Hz, I first though this drop in the response was due poor integration between the mains & subs but this drop in the response is also present in the response of just the mains without the subs.

I have attached images of the responses & circled the area I am referring to.

Well I can't find good third party measurements of your speakers. They seem to have a good reputation on listening reviews, but my experience is that goes for little.

I have bad news for you. I don't think you problem is primarily the room. You might as well have it straight. I think those speakers are just plain "nasty". I think you have done careful measurements which confirm your listening impressions.

From your data those speakers seem to have a weird false peaked bass tuning too high and a rapid fall of to cheat and get the 3 db point artificially high. This is coupled with poorly and incorrectly applied baffle step compensation for the transition from half to full space acoustic radiation. This sort of response makes a speaker really lack body and produce a thin sound. This is compounded by a rise in response between 3K and 6 KHz. This is a very nasty defect especially when combined with the other problems.

Can you be certain you don't have some awful auto Eq program involved here like Audyssey or its equivalent in your Arcam? If not then I don't think you will get meaningful improvement without deep sixing those speakers.

 

[MasterMechTech]

Well I can't find good third party measurements of your speakers. They seem to have a good reputation on listening reviews, but my experience is that goes for little.

I have bad news for you. I don't think you problem is primarily the room. You might as well have it straight. I think those speakers are just plain "nasty". I think you have done careful measurements which confirm your listening impressions.

From your data those speakers seem to have a weird false peaked bass tuning too high and a rapid fall of to cheat and get the 3 db point artificially high. This is coupled with poorly and incorrectly applied baffle step compensation for the transition from half to full space acoustic radiation. This sort of response makes a speaker really lack body and produce a thin sound. This is compounded by a rise in response between 3K and 6 KHz. This is a very nasty defect especially when combined with the other problems.

Can you be certain you don't have some awful auto Eq program involved here like Audyssey or its equivalent in your Arcam? If not then I don't think you will get meaningful improvement without deep sixing those speakers.

I will double check but I am 99% sure all EQ is disabled in the receiver.

Would it be wise to double check the speaker is at fault by doing near field measurements?

I am not going to pretend I understand everything you said but If these speakers are trash then I will sell them I would just like to be sure first.

 

[TLS Guy]

I will double check but I am 99% sure all EQ is disabled in the receiver.

Would it be wise to double check the speaker is at fault by doing near field measurements?

I am not going to pretend I understand everything you said but If these speakers are trash then I will sell them I would just like to be sure first.

I'm sorry, I thought those were near field measurements, like I suggested. They need to be taken at 2 meters with the mic on axis with the tweeter. Please also get the off axis measurements I suggested also.

 

[MasterMechTech]

I'm sorry, I thought those were near field measurements, like I suggested. They need to be taken at 2 meters with the mic on axis with the tweeter. Please also get the off axis measurements I suggested also.

I will be sure get these near field measurements today, I have never taken near field measurements before so wish me luck.

I guess I need to use my 0 degree calibration file from CSL with my UMIK-1 for these measurements instead of the 90 degree calibration file?

I guess I can leave the speakers where they are now & measure them? No need to move them into the centre of the room?

 

[TLS Guy]

I will be sure get these near field measurements today, I have never taken near field measurements before so wish me luck.

I guess I need to use my 0 degree calibration file from CSL with my UMIK-1 for these measurements instead of the 90 degree calibration file?

I guess I can leave the speakers where they are now & measure them? No need to move them into the centre of the room?

Yes, measure them where they are.