Stupid question about preamp, and amps?

[Hetfield]

OK after doing more research and reading the 1205 A owners manual it only needs 1.0 but it needs 1.2 output for full THX level which i had no intention of doing anyway. I'm good for the next 5 months till I get with the MC-700 or Outlaw model 976. I'm between both, going back and forth, any suggestions or thoughts on the 2 processors?

 

[PENG]

Ok after doing some research it doesn't sound good. The Yamaha it seems only puts out 1.0 voltage and as you stated the 1205A needs 1.2, do you think this is gonna be an issue at all? I'm not gonna hurt the amp, speakers or receiver will I? I am MORE and MORE disappointed with today's receivers. They seem to skimp on every god dam thing just to add more processing BS no one uses! I'm going to separates and NEVER, EVER going back to receivers, EVER! Just annoyed at everything going on with today's receivers.

The 1V spec mentioned in the manual is not the maximum output at clipping. Most AVR can output much more than that, AH just bench tested the AVR-x3300w that output more than 4V. I bet the RX-V663 can do better than 1.2V cleanly, probably 2V, that's my educated guess.

I highly doubt those two prepros can compete with the top 3 AVR models from Yamaha or Denon and the top 2 models from Marantz.

 

[PENG]

I would think it is for slow initial charging.

Thanks would explain why the A21 still dim lights, nothing to mitigate the transformer inrush current.

 

[Hetfield]

The 1V spec mentioned in the manual is not the maximum output at clipping. Most AVR can output much more than that, AH just bench tested the AVR-x3300w that output more than 4V. I bet the RX-V663 can do better than 1.2V cleanly, probably 2V, that's my educated guess.

I highly doubt those two prepros can compete with the top 2 models from Yamaha or Denon AVR and the flag ship Marantz AVR.

Oh ok, that makes me feel better then. I think I'll be good for the short run until I get a real processor. Do actually processors publish output voltage or you never have to worry about something like that with an actual dedicated preamp/processor?

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[PENG]

Oh ok, that makes me feel better then. I think I'll be good for the short run until I get a real processor. Do actually processors publish output voltage or you never have to worry about something like that with an actual dedicated preamp/processor?

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They typically publish such figures without specifying the conditions, leaving us guessing or rely on lab measurements that are not always available. Again, for power amps that have good input sensitivity, this is generally not an issue regardless. AVRs are much more cost effective than prepros because of their much larger sales volume. So you have to spend a lot more on a prepro that can out perform a mid range AVR such as the Yamaha RX-A2060, or Denon AVR-X4300H.

 

[Hetfield]

They typically publish such figures without specifying the conditions, leaving us guessing or rely on lab measurements that are not always available. Again, for power amps that have good input sensitivity, this is generally not an issue regardless. AVRs are much more cost effective than prepros because of their much larger sales volume. So you have to spend a lot more on a prepro that can out perform a mid range AVR such as the Yamaha RX-A2060, or Denon AVR-X4300H.

Well this guy is completely giving up on receivers of any range, high and low. I just don't like what is going on with receivers. I'm going back up separates and I'm not looking back.

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[PENG]

Well this guy is completely giving up on receivers of any range, high and low. I just don't like what is going on with receivers. I'm going back up separates and I'm not looking back.

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Sure, that's your choice. You are not the only one who believes separates are better. They really should be better but at a much higher price point, I would guess 2 to 3X for marginally better performance. So when you are ready, I highly recommend you go for something better than the two you are thinking of right now.

For me, I think I am going to go the other way. I paid more than $3K less than 3 years ago on the Marantz flag ship prepro. When the time come I will likely get an AVR, but still use it to drive my power amps. For 2 channel listening I will always stick with separates, though I do have one 2 channel system that I am still using an old 7.1 channel AVR with great success.

Regarding preout levels, as an example, here's a review on the AVR-X5200W, the preouts reached 4.5V rms on every channel, unclipped, spec just say 1.2V, unqualified.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x5200w/measurements

Some of the later model Yamaha RX-A AVRs does specify a little more info, such as 1 V at 470 ohms, maximum 2V or more.., that means it could be much more in real world situation when the input impedance of power amps are much higher than 470 ohms, likely at least several times that.

 

[Hetfield]

Sure, that's your choice. You are not the only one who believes separates are better. They really should be better but at a much higher price point, I would guess 2 to 3X for marginally better performance. For me, I think I am going to go the other way. I paid more than $3K less than 3 years ago on the Marantz flag ship prepro. When the time come I will likely get an AVR, but still use it to drive my power amps. For 2 channel listening I will always stick with separates, though I do have one 2 channel system that I am still using an old 7.1 channel AVR with great success.

Regarding preout levels, as an example, here's a review on the AVR-X5200W, the preouts reached 4.5V rms on every channel, unclipped, spec just say 1.2V, unqualified.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x5200w/measurements

Some of the later model Yamaha RX-A AVRs does specify a little more info, such as 1 V at 470 ohms, maximum 2V or more.., that means it could be much more in real world situation when the input impedance of power amps are much higher than 470 ohms, likely at least several times that.

I actually like at like I'm being forced into going with separates. With Outlaw audio and Emotiva good separates aren't out of the reach for anyone really. I trust both companies. Receivers are easier to use and understand so I don't blame people for going that route, I mean most do right? Would you say 90+ % use receivers over separates?
So you think even though the RX-V 663 says 1.0 it's probably higher than that or better than that in the real world use? I think I'm gonna be ok personally after reading the owners manual of the 1205 A amp.

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[PENG]

I actually like at like I'm being forced into going with separates. With Outlaw audio and Emotiva good separates aren't out of the reach for anyone really. I trust both companies. Receivers are easier to use and understand so I don't blame people for going that route, I mean most do right? Would you say 90+ % use receivers over separates?
So you think even though the RX-V 663 says 1.0 it's probably higher than that or better than that in the real world use? I think I'm gonna be ok personally after reading the owners manual of the 1205 A amp.

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I wish they still make 7.1 avrs using high quality components so people are not forced to pay for features and channels they don't need.

Regarding the RX-V, I have no doubt it can drive your amp to full output. Yamaha always specify 1V, even for their CX5100 preprocessor, but in that case they do tell you the maximum is 4V. The 1V is probably for a 470 ohm load. The load presented by your power amp, that is the so called input impedance, should be at least 10,000 ohms.

 

[Pogre]

I actually like at like I'm being forced into going with separates. With Outlaw audio and Emotiva good separates aren't out of the reach for anyone really. I trust both companies. Receivers are easier to use and understand so I don't blame people for going that route, I mean most do right? Would you say 90+ % use receivers over separates?
So you think even though the RX-V 663 says 1.0 it's probably higher than that or better than that in the real world use? I think I'm gonna be ok personally after reading the owners manual of the 1205 A amp.

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Only one way to find out. I don't know what your aversion is to avr's tho. To get a pre pro that will out perform any mid tier avr you're gonna have to shell out some big cash. It's kind of like saying, "I don't like what's going on with all the good speaker manufacturers so I'm going with Bose".

 

[Hetfield]

Well i feel much better now after being a little bummed when I first read 1.0 output. I'm gonna find out the difference between 95 watts per which is really less than 95 watts per to 140 separate amp that is probably a very conservative rating. I think I'll hear a noticeable difference. Not looking to play louder, looking for an overall better sound, better dynamics at all Volume levels.

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[Hetfield]

Only one way to find out. I don't know what your aversion is to avr's tho. To get a pre pro that will out perform any mid tier avr you're gonna have to shell out some big cash. It's kind of like saying, "I don't like what's going on with all the good speaker manufacturers so I'm going with Bose".

Um I just don't like the cutting corners in the amp sections of receivers. You see tests by Audioholics and it scares me to death. 35 watts per channel when it says 90 or something. That really, really bothers me.
You can get a kick butt amp from Outlaw and processor for like 1200 bucks. Yeah it'll never be as cheap as receivers but for a bit more money you get much more. Just my opinion. If we are talking about a high end Anthem or Nad I trust it. I just don't trust any receivers coming from the lower guys including Yamaha which breaks my heart to say because they are my favorite. I'm not saying separates only, and everyone on God's green should switch. I'm just saying it for me.

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[Hetfield]

I've talked to plenty of people including Audioholics to know that I just don't like what's going on in AV receivers right now unless you get to the high end stuff. At that point I'd rather go separates but again this just me, just how I'm thinking. I understand why most don't want to go that route. I say God bless em. I feel the need to go in another direction.
Good suggestions on the receivers for the short term. I'm just gonna tough it out with the Yamaha until I can get the Emotiva or Outlaw audio processor. I'm go back and forth between both. Both look awesome.

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[PENG]

If you are so determined to go the separate route for better sound quality, the MC700 and the Outlaw 975 are not going to get you too far. As a stop gap measure, you could consider the low cost refurb option such as the AVR-X3100W or the AVR-X3300W that has the latest Audyssey XT32/SubEQ HT that is compatible with the Audyssey editor app.

http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...ch-x-105-watts-networking-a/v-receiver/1.html
http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...ch-x-105-watts-networking-a/v-receiver/1.html
http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...ch-x-100-watts-networking-a/v-receiver/1.html

For reference, below are links to a couple of reviews with bench test data:

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements
http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/receiver-processor/receivers/denon-avr-x4100-a-v-receiver-review/

All of those low cost refurb items should have preout voltage well above what your power amp needs for full output.

Not trying to talk you out of separates, just want to point out the possibility you may regret for not doing it right the first time. To match the performance of your power amp you will likely have to spend around 2K on an AV processor that comes equipped with a good room EQ system. By going half way now, you can continue to do your research and save up for something that deserves your very decent power amp.

AVRs have to compromise (imo, not exactly the same as "ut corner") in their power amp section for the obvious reasons. Fortunately they generally do it in such way that it won't compromise much in real world applications. They typically have very respectable two channel outputs even into low impedance. For very short duration where the media contents may require all channels fired up, most mid range AVRs can sustain long enough without destroying themselves or shutting down. None of these compromise applies to you now that you own a decent 5 channel power amplifier.

I strongly suggest you read the articles linked below in order to understand more on this topic, and not be influenced too much by hearsay.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/the-all-channels-driven-amplifier-test-controversy
http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/the-all-channels-driven-acd-amplifier-test

Those excellent articles are written by the president of Audioholics.

 

[Hetfield]

Outlaw has the model 976 coming out that looks really awesome but thanks for the suggestions. I do like the Store that sells the refurbs. I would not hesitate to buy from them at all.


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[Hetfield]

I'll tell you the Marantz you suggested is intriguing. I've always loved Marantz equipment. I might buy that or something close to be my processor. Good job on that one.

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[Pogre]

I'll tell you the Marantz you suggested is intriguing. I've always loved Marantz equipment. I might buy that or something close to be my processor. Good job on that one.

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I just got the 6011 and love it.

I get what you're saying about the amp sections in some modern avr's. What I don't get is, you won't be using it for that anyway. you just need a processor, right?

 

[Hetfield]

I just got the 6011 and love it.

I get what you're saying about the amp sections in some modern avr's. What I don't get is, you won't be using it for that anyway. you just need a processor, right?

Yeah your correct I only need the processor side. I'd rather have a dedicated processor than a receiver because that's serious waste but I'd still do that.

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[Hetfield]

Ok hooked up the Parasound amp, and first impressions is wow. You can tell its a better quality amp all the way around. Its as clean as can be, you can feel the headroom. I think this was a great move except one issue. There is a slight buzz sound from the speakers when no sound is present. You think its the RCA cables I used? I used Amazon basics stereo RCA cables. Any ideas or suggestions?

 

[lovinthehd]

Ok hooked up the Parasound amp, and first impressions is wow. You can tell its a better quality amp all the way around. Its as clean as can be, you can feel the headroom. I think this was a great move except one issue. There is a slight buzz sound from the speakers when no sound is present. You think its the RCA cables I used? I used Amazon basics stereo RCA cables. Any ideas or suggestions?

Could be inherent noise even in a Parasound amp. Is it a buzz or more a hiss? You could switch rca cables but unless they're faulty not likely the cause. You have no other rca cables to try and switch with? I've got a bag full usually or can make one in a pinch....

Do your Parasound amps have adjustable gain?