Struggling with Dolby Atmos and Yamaha 2080

S

smelchionda

Audiophyte
Hello, life long audio and video enthusiast here. After a long hiatus of about 15 years I finally built a new system for our living room and I have some questions. First here is the system:

Receiver: Yamaha 2080 (for home theater use)
Speakers Configuration: 5.4.4
FL, FR, RL, RR: Warfedale Diamond 9.1
Center Channel Speaker: Martin Logan Slim XL
Subs (4) Home built Parts Express / Dayton Audio 10" subs powered by two Dayton Audio stereo Amps

Streaming Device: AudioLab 6000N For Streaming Amazon HD Music and Spotify

TV: LG 77 C1 PUB connected to the Receiver via an HDMI

For Music
Integrated Amp: Yamaha A/S 2200, connected to the 2080 by a HT bypass input
Speakers: Modified Polk Monitor 5 Junior + backed up by the 4 subwoofers mentioned above

First an observation. The sound quality of streaming Amazon HD music is incredible in comparison to Spotify. I wish Spotify would provide HiFi sound quality, because when comparing Amazon HD to Spotify the difference is like night and day.

But this isn't about music, its about Atmos when watching movies.

So I built this incredible system in our new living room, upgraded to Netflicks 4K and then as soon as we started watching movies I was completely underwhelmed. Probably the biggest issue is that when watching a movie, the musical score is almost not audible because its so low. Atmos seems to be nonexistent as there is nothing even remotely reminiscent of a "soundfield" in our living room when watching a movie.

I've seen posts where people have said that these streaming services dont stream in HD, however when you look at a movie titles in AppleTV+ or Netflicks some will say "ATMOS". What does that mean and how do I get Atmos to my receiver? The best I've been able to do is to use the "Straight" function on the Receiver and if I do that I can get the front panel of the Receiver to say "Atmos DD+"
Is this a problem with the TV? I've also read that it might be possible to get the ATMOS stream to the Receiver if you use an Nvidia Shield PRO device.

The goal is to be able to get ATMOS with out having to buy a disk player and start using HD BluRays.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I can get the front panel of the Receiver to say "Atmos DD+"
If your Yamaha front LCD says "Dolby ATMOS", then you are getting ATMOS.

Yes, you can also bitstream Dolby ATMOS using Nvidia Shields Pro.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Who streams Atmos content without Dolby DD+ as codec? Only way to avoid that afaik is buying the bluray. Atmos is just the metadata, and it can be transmitted with Dolby DD+.....but no one as far as I know streams a lossless version (takes too much bandwidth).
 
D

dolynick

Audioholic
You can get 5.1 from the Netflix PC app (free from the MS store), but I'm not sure if that will include Atmos as well. I stopped using it anyways because it doesn't support auto HDR switching.

An apple TV 4k box will do Atmos from it's Netflix app without issue as well. Prime as well (for now at least until they tier lock it). So another option besides the NV Shield Pro.
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Ninja
Streaming services do use DD+ but some devices, like the Apple TV 4K, will output audio after converting to LPCM. Those devices will require more bandwidth than the ARC spec provides for multichannel signals.

Anyway, if the receiver here reports an Atmos/DD+ signal from the TV's apps, then Atmos metadata is present in the ARC signal. The 2080 does not support eARC. So, eARC Support should be turned OFF in the LG C1. Digital Sound Output should be set to Passthrough. Dolby signals will have Dolby Offset present and often require a volume bump compared to PCM signals.

Straight mode should be fine but Yamaha does recommend DSur mode for Dolby Atmos tracks with that unit. I'm a bit confused about the speaker layout and connected devices. While 5.4.4 was mentioned, I don't see any Presence Speakers or how they are configured in settings. Are they set as Height, Overhead or Dolby Enabled SP? Surround Speakers should be shown as SL and SR, not RL and RR when using five speakers at ear level instead of seven. I'd be interested in just how everything is connected and configured here.
Screenshot 2024-02-15 at 12.16.10 PM.png

Screenshot 2024-02-15 at 12.33.12 PM.png

Screenshot 2024-02-15 at 12.57.44 PM.png
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Streaming services do use DD+ but some devices, like the Apple TV 4K, will output audio after converting to LPCM. Those devices will require more bandwidth than the ARC spec provides for multichannel signals.

Anyway, if the receiver here reports an Atmos/DD+ signal from the TV's apps, then Atmos metadata is present in the ARC signal. The 2080 does not support eARC. So, eARC Support should be turned OFF in the LG C1. Digital Sound Output should be set to Passthrough. Dolby signals will have Dolby Offset present and often require a volume bump compared to PCM signals. The volume discrepancies range for -6 to -10 db. In my experience closer to -10db. That is a lot.

Straight mode should be fine but Yamaha does recommend DSur mode for Dolby Atmos tracks with that unit. I'm a bit confused about the speaker layout and connected devices. While 5.4.4 was mentioned, I don't see any Presence Speakers or how they are configured in settings. Are they set as Height, Overhead or Dolby Enabled SP? Surround Speakers should be shown as SL and SR, not RL and RR when using five speakers at ear level instead of seven. I'd be interested in just how everything is connected and configured here.
View attachment 65880
View attachment 65881
View attachment 65882
That Dolby offset and reduced volume is a PITA. One thing to bare in mind, Dolby Atmos is not lossless and can not be streamed in Dolby True HD, but only in DD +.
So Dolby Atmos can not be streamed loss less under current specifications. How much that matters I am not sure.

The big problem I have with it all, is in a streamed program between items it reverts to standard DD+ and you have to re-toggle Atmos. If you forget it blows you out of your set, because of the huge volume disparity. So, my view is that this whole Atmos issue has to be regarded as a work in progress. Things are not where they need to be yet.
 
isolar8001

isolar8001

Audioholic General
That Dolby offset and reduced volume is a PITA. One thing to bare in mind, Dolby Atmos is not lossless and can not be streamed in Dolby True HD, but only in DD +.
So Dolby Atmos can not be streamed loss less under current specifications. How much that matters I am not sure.

The big problem I have with it all, is in a streamed program between items it reverts to standard DD+ and you have to re-toggle Atmos. If you forget it blows you out of your set, because of the huge volume disparity. So, my view is that this whole Atmos issue has to be regarded as a work in progress. Things are not where they need to be yet.
That volume issue drives me nuts....I have some very good Atmos files in m4a, but have to crank my volume to minus 10 to get the same levels I usually get at minus 25...this really bugs me, and I see no good reason for it.
Not all Atmos files do this, but enough do to make it a real pain.

I cant figure out any way to normalize them without destroying the metadata either.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
That volume issue drives me nuts....I have some very good Atmos files in m4a, but have to crank my volume to minus 10 to get the same levels I usually get at minus 25...this really bugs me, and I see no good reason for it.
Not all Atmos files do this, but enough do to make it a real pain.

I cant figure out any way to normalize them without destroying the metadata either.
That is by intent. Unless a stream conforms to the Dolby spec, then the stream is taken down. Dolby have an absolute lock in this. Their latest excuse is that it allows for greater dynamic range. But comparing Atmos to non Atmos of the same version, I can't see that is true. It seems lame to me. They say it would allow high power to all channels simultaneously. However, this never happens, as in my experience mixers and producers are very loath to put serious power to speakers other than the front three. I suppose they don't want to be accused of blowing up puny surround speakers. Most rigs actually do not have very robust speakers as the surrounds. But that short changes those of us that have potent speakers in all locations.
 
isolar8001

isolar8001

Audioholic General
That is by intent. Unless a stream conforms to the Dolby spec, then the stream is taken down. Dolby have an absolute lock in this. Their latest excuse is that it allows for greater dynamic range. But comparing Atmos to non Atmos of the same version, I can't see that is true. It seems lame to me. They say it would allow high power to all channels simultaneously. However, this never happens, as in my experience mixers and producers are very loath to put serious power to speakers other than the front three. I suppose they don't want to be accused of blowing up puny surround speakers. Most rigs actually do not have very robust speakers as the surrounds. But that short changes those of us that have potent speakers in all locations.
I had heard also that Dolby uses the dynamic range argument for the volume issue...I don't agree with that either.
You can still have excellent dynamic range without crippling the volume level as a whole.

You can see/hear the same issue with video presentations with the same results.
Some are normal volume level...others are very low.
Why isn't Dolby clamping down on those who just ignore their guidelines?

Seeing as most of this is happening with streaming Atmos played through soundbars, the whole dynamic range argument becomes even more ridiculous.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The goal is to be able to get ATMOS without having to buy a disk player and start using HD BluRays.
I have been watching hundreds of 4K Dolby Atmos and DTS:X movie files on my HTPC for the past 7 years. So I don’t even use my 4K UHD player.
 
isolar8001

isolar8001

Audioholic General
Hello, life long audio and video enthusiast here. After a long hiatus of about 15 years I finally built a new system for our living room and I have some questions. First here is the system:

Receiver: Yamaha 2080 (for home theater use)
Speakers Configuration: 5.4.4
FL, FR, RL, RR: Warfedale Diamond 9.1
Center Channel Speaker: Martin Logan Slim XL
Subs (4) Home built Parts Express / Dayton Audio 10" subs powered by two Dayton Audio stereo Amps

Streaming Device: AudioLab 6000N For Streaming Amazon HD Music and Spotify

TV: LG 77 C1 PUB connected to the Receiver via an HDMI

For Music
Integrated Amp: Yamaha A/S 2200, connected to the 2080 by a HT bypass input
Speakers: Modified Polk Monitor 5 Junior + backed up by the 4 subwoofers mentioned above

First an observation. The sound quality of streaming Amazon HD music is incredible in comparison to Spotify. I wish Spotify would provide HiFi sound quality, because when comparing Amazon HD to Spotify the difference is like night and day.

But this isn't about music, its about Atmos when watching movies.

So I built this incredible system in our new living room, upgraded to Netflicks 4K and then as soon as we started watching movies I was completely underwhelmed. Probably the biggest issue is that when watching a movie, the musical score is almost not audible because its so low. Atmos seems to be nonexistent as there is nothing even remotely reminiscent of a "soundfield" in our living room when watching a movie.

I've seen posts where people have said that these streaming services dont stream in HD, however when you look at a movie titles in AppleTV+ or Netflicks some will say "ATMOS". What does that mean and how do I get Atmos to my receiver? The best I've been able to do is to use the "Straight" function on the Receiver and if I do that I can get the front panel of the Receiver to say "Atmos DD+"
Is this a problem with the TV? I've also read that it might be possible to get the ATMOS stream to the Receiver if you use an Nvidia Shield PRO device.

The goal is to be able to get ATMOS with out having to buy a disk player and start using HD BluRays.
ATMOS doesn't mean it sounds better....it means it sounds different if you have an ATMOS setup. (and a proper one at that)
Different being sound effects on the ceiling basically.
Then what comes into play is that 90 percent of all the ATMOS out there is very underwhelming.
The streaming services give you ATMOS because they have to...they really don't go overboard making sure its the best they can do.
If that light on your AVR comes on, they are off the hook for what they promised you and charged for.
ATMOS is largely BS to me.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
ATMOS doesn't mean it sounds better....it means it sounds different if you have an ATMOS setup. (and a proper one at that)
Different being sound effects on the ceiling basically.
Then what comes into play is that 90 percent of all the ATMOS out there is very underwhelming.
The streaming services give you ATMOS because they have to...they really don't go overboard making sure its the best they can do.
If that light on your AVR comes on, they are off the hook for what they promised you and charged for.
ATMOS is largely BS to me.
Just because the streaming might trigger the light, doesn't seem to mean you're getting the full experience of a bluray either....
 
isolar8001

isolar8001

Audioholic General
Just because the streaming might trigger the light, doesn't seem to mean you're getting the full experience of a bluray either....
Now now, don't make the masses feel any worse than they already do. They think they are getting great picture quality from streaming too..... :)
 
isolar8001

isolar8001

Audioholic General
My experience has been very different. Can’t remember. How did you have yours set up?
It’s definitely more than sound effects on the ceiling.
I had a five sided box with eight drivers firing all at different angles glued to the top of a turbocharged Roomba.
You should have seen that thing hauling ass around the room during heavy effects scenes !!
 
ban25

ban25

Audioholic
You obtain them how particularly?
I buy mine from Amazon. Then I rip them to mkv files using MakeMKV and transfer them to my 140TB home SAN, which runs Plex and Roon (and LMS, because why not). Each 4K rip is anywhere from 50 to 80 GB, depending on the bitrate of the title.

I play them using the Plex client on the NVIDIA Shield TV Pro (2019), which allows streaming of lossless TrueHD Atmos and Dolby Vision as well as DTS:X for the handful of 4K titles that use it such as the Harry Potter series.

It's essentially a Kaleidescape with vastly more capability.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I buy mine from Amazon. Then I rip them to mkv files using MakeMKV and transfer them to my 140TB home SAN, which runs Plex and Roon (and LMS, because why not). Each 4K rip is anywhere from 50 to 80 GB, depending on the bitrate of the title.

I play them using the Plex client on the NVIDIA Shield TV Pro (2019), which allows streaming of lossless TrueHD Atmos and Dolby Vision as well as DTS:X for the handful of 4K titles that use it such as the Harry Potter series.

It's essentially a Kaleidescape with vastly more capability.
Pretty much. Except my brother does all the work. :D

I use Kodi on my Windows-10 HTPC, instead of Plex.

Kaleidoscape is such a ripoff. :D
 
D

dolynick

Audioholic
Pretty much. Except my brother does all the work. :D

I use Kodi on my Windows-10 HTPC, instead of Plex.
I use a simple network share (RAID 6 array) and run Media Monkey on the HTPCs for library management. It hands off to MPC-BE with LAV and MadVR for playback.

Before that I used to do it all through Windows Media Player and Shark Codecs. HDR required moving on to accommodate auto mode switching.

The new way is quite a bit simpler and involves far less codec setting juggling.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
My experience has been very different. Can’t remember. How did you have yours set up?
It’s definitely more than sound effects on the ceiling.
Yeah, some of us absolutely LOVE ATMOS. :D

I like it. I Like it. I like it. :D
 
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