Streamer and cable recommendation for my Marantz PM-6007

S

sand87

Audioholic
I have the same model- don't worry about the cables.

Are you not using the MusicCast for streaming? If not, why not? It does a great job of that.
no i havent bought the yamaha wxc-50 yet.my confusion is if i shud put in more money for the dac in it that i dont need.i just need the streaming features.
And hence a product with just the streaming features wud suffice
 
pcosmic

pcosmic

Senior Audioholic
I have the same model- don't worry about the cables.

Are you not using the MusicCast for streaming? If not, why not? It does a great job of that.
Yes, the wXC 50 has airplay, BT, spotify whatever he wants. MusicCast on its own is awesome. He may never even have to use airplay. Dude's requirements are a bit confused. It can often be picked up on sale for 200ish bucks.
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
Yes, the wXC 50 has airplay, BT, spotify whatever he wants. MusicCast on its own is awesome. He may never even have to use airplay. Dude's requirements are a bit confused. It can often be picked up on sale for 200ish bucks.
you guys got me wrong.yhese products dont go on sale in india and are costlier.which is guess is due to the dac probably.so i was lukng for amthng with just the streaming features
 
pcosmic

pcosmic

Senior Audioholic
no i havent bought the yamaha wxc-50 yet.my confusion is if i shud put in more money for the dac in it that i dont need.i just need the streaming features.
If you have a good external dac, get the WXC50. It has no money wasted on a builtin dac. Its design intent is transport. This is not even a discussion. You cannot find a better feature rich product at your budget, period.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Yes, the wXC 50 has airplay, BT, spotify whatever he wants. MusicCast on its own is awesome. He may never even have to use airplay. Dude's requirements are a bit confused. It can often be picked up on sale for 200ish bucks.
$200? Not in the US- that's below dealer cost.

Spotify is the only streaming service that requires using a phone or tablet to cast TO the device- Sonos streams Spotify with the phone acting as the controller, but IIRC, that arrangement will be ending.

Personally, I would use Airplay before BT because using IP provides better range.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
no i havent bought the yamaha wxc-50 yet.my confusion is if i shud put in more money for the dac in it that i dont need.i just need the streaming features.
And hence a product with just the streaming features wud suffice
It has a DAC and it works well- I use my WXC-50 as the preamp in my system and it sounds very good, including the sound from sources with digital output.
 
pcosmic

pcosmic

Senior Audioholic
you guys got me wrong.yhese products dont go on sale in india and are costlier.which is guess is due to the dac probably.so i was lukng for amthng with just the streaming features
Your cheapest solution may be a chromecast audio puck. You can run its optical out to your dac. A very cheap streamer with digital coax out does not exist (to my knowledge).
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
Your cheapest solution may be a chromecast audio puck. You can run its optical out to your dac. A very cheap streamer with digital coax out does not exist (to my knowledge).
saw this.hows the arylic.is it any good??

 
John Parks

John Parks

Audioholic Samurai
saw this.hows the arylic.is it any good??

It is getting good reviews. I saw it and noted it had its own DAC and no coaxial out, hence I did not suggest it. If you are okay with optical (and no reason no to be, really) it should work great. Also, it will give you the opportunity to compare DACs for grins and giggle...

 
S

sand87

Audioholic
It is getting good reviews. I saw it and noted it had its own DAC and no coaxial out, hence I did not suggest it. If you are okay with optical (and no reason no to be, really) it should work great. Also, it will give you the opportunity to compare DACs for grins and giggle...

yes the s50pro has a coax out i guess aint it
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
It is getting good reviews. I saw it and noted it had its own DAC and no coaxial out, hence I did not suggest it. If you are okay with optical (and no reason no to be, really) it should work great. Also, it will give you the opportunity to compare DACs for grins and giggle...

i am totally fine with tsolink.but lately read many reviews stating that cox is better for music than optical tsolink.i dint know how much is again snake oil but still
 
pcosmic

pcosmic

Senior Audioholic
i am totally fine with tsolink.but lately read many reviews stating that cox is better for music than optical tsolink.i dint know how much is again snake oil but still
Credit goes to stackexchange for the summary below:
""
Isolation:

Optical fiber isn't conductive, so it solves ground loops, hum/buzz issues and any is insensitive to RF interference. Coax can also be isolated with a transformer, however this adds to the cost and is uncommon in consumer equipment. A quick test with a multimeter between digital RCA ground and any other RCA ground will reveal if there is transformer isolation or not.

This really matters for cable TV boxes which are connected to the cable's ground, as this tends to create annoying ground loops.

Bandwidth:

The majority of optical transceivers on the market will have enough bandwidth for 24bits/96kHz, but only a few will pass 24/192k, and none pass 384k. If you want to know which one you got, make a test. That's rather binary: it works or it does't. Of course you can buy optical transceivers with much higher bandwidth (for ethernet, among other things), but you won't find these in audio gear.

Coax has no trouble with bandwidth, it'll pass 384k with no trouble, whether it will sound better is left as an exercise for the marketing department.

Whether 192k is a marketing gimmick or useful is an interesting question, but if you want to use it and your optical reveiver doesn't support it then you'll have to use coax.

Length

Plastic optical fiber is cheap. Count on 1dB/m attenuation. This isn't high-quality glass-core telecom fiber with 1-2dB/km loss! This doesn't matter for a 1m long fiber in your home cinema, but if you need a 100 meter run, coax will be the only option. 75R TV antenna coax is fine. Or better fiber, but not plastic. Connectors are, of course, not compatible.

(Note 1dB/m is for the digital signal, not the analog audio. If the digital signal is too attenuated the receiver won't be able to decode it, or errors will occur).

Bit Error Rate

Barring a major issue, all the bits will be there with both systems (I checked). BER is not an issue in practice. Anyone who talks about bit errors in SPDIF has something to sell, usually an expensive gimmick to solve a non-existent problem. Also SPDIF includes error-checking, so the receiver will mask any errors.

Jitter

Optical receivers add a lot more jitter (in the ns range) than well-implemented coaxial.

If the coax implementation is botched (not enough bandwidth extension on the low end, violation of 75R impedance, high intersymbol interference, etc) it can also add jitter.

This only matters if your DAC at the receiving end doesn't implement proper clock recovery (ie, WM8805, ESS DACs, or other FIFO-based systems). If it does it properly, there will be no measurable difference, and good luck hearing anything in a double blind test. If the receiver doesn't clean jitter properly then you'll have audible differences between cables. This is a "receiver not doing its job" problem, not a cable problem.

EDIT

SPDIF embeds the clock into the signal, so it must be recovered. This is done with a PLL synchronized with the incoming SPDIF transitions. The amount of jitter in the recovered clock depends on how much jitter is in the incoming signal transitions, and the ability of the PLL to reject it.

When a digital signal transitions, the important moment occurs when it passes through the logic level threshold of the receiver. At this point, the amount of jitter added is equal to the noise (or amount of error added into the signal) divided by the signal slew rate.

For example if a signal has a risetime of 10ns/V, and we add 10mV noise, this will shift the logic level transition in time by 100ps.

TOSLINK receivers have a lot more random noise than what would be added by a coax (the photodiode signal is weak and must be amplified), but this isn't the main cause. It is actually band-limiting.

Coax SPDIF is usually AC-coupled with a cap or transformer-coupled. This adds a high-pass on top of the natural low-pass nature of any transmission medium. The result is a bandpass filter. If the pass band isn't large enough, this means past signal values will influence current values. See fig.5 in this article. Or here:

enter image description here

Longer periods of constant levels (1 or 0) will influence the levels on the next bits and move the transitions around in time. This adds data-dependent jitter. Both the high-pass and low-pass sides matter.

Optical adds more jitter because its noise is higher, and its passband is smaller than a properly implemented coax. For example, see this link. Jitter on 192k is very high (almost 1/3 of a bit time) but jitter on 48k is much lower, because the receiver doesn't have enough bandwidth for the 192k signal, so it acts as a lowpass, and the previous bits smear into the current bit (that's intersymbol interference). This is almost invisible on 48k because receiver bandwidth is sufficient for this sample rate, so intersymbol interference is much lower. I'm not sure the receiver used by this guy actually supports 192k, the waveform really looks bad and I doubt the decoder chip would find it palatable. But this illustrates bandwidth vs intersymbol interference well.

Most optical receivers datasheets will specify a few ns jitter.

The same can occur with a bad SPDIF coax, if it acts like a low pass filter. The highpass part of the transfer function also plays a part (read the article linked above). Same if the cable is long and impedance discontinuities cause reflections which corrupt the edges.

Note this only matters if the following circuitry doesn't reject it. So the end result is very implementation dependent. If the receiver is CS8416 and the DAC chip is very sensitive to jitter, it can be very audible. With more modern chips which use a digital PLL to reconstruct the clock, good luck hearing any difference! These work very well.

For example WM8805 runs the received data through a tiny FIFO and uses a Frac-N clock synthetizer to reconstruct the clock, whose frequency is updated once is a while. It is rather interesting to watch on the scope.

""

Decide for yourself.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
$200? Not in the US- that's below dealer cost.

Spotify is the only streaming service that requires using a phone or tablet to cast TO the device- Sonos streams Spotify with the phone acting as the controller, but IIRC, that arrangement will be ending.

Personally, I would use Airplay before BT because using IP provides better range.
Spotify was among the first to go the other way (via Spotify Connect) your phone just acts as a remote, the stream to your device is from the Spotify servers. Unless you actually are circumventing that deliberately.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
This really matters for cable TV boxes which are connected to the cable's ground, as this tends to create annoying ground loops.
FWIW, the hum and buzz caused by cable installations is often due to the cable NOT being grounded properly at the demarc, or bad hardware on the cable company's end allowing DC to pass to the cable feeding the cable box(es).
 
Will Brink

Will Brink

Audioholic
any streamer with coax out available?
Why do you want that? Do you plan to use a different DAC with the unit? If what you're connecting it to something with a better DAC/better implementation of the DAC, all good, but is that your intent? Otherwise, use the RCA connections for any decent streamer.
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
Why do you want that? Do you plan to use a different DAC with the unit? If what you're connecting it to something with a better DAC/better implementation of the DAC, all good, but is that your intent? Otherwise, use the RCA connections for any decent streamer.
ok i may be wrong to think that way.
so u mean if i take coax out from the streamer then the dac of that streamer wud also cm into the scene..is it wat u meant?
Assuming that u were referring to wat i have said above...no i dont want the dac of the streamer colouring the music any way.i intend just to use the dac on the marantz PM6007.but for that i have to use either the coax in or opt in on the marantz PM6007 rt?!thats why i wanted a coax out from streamer to connect to the opt in on my marantz.
 
Will Brink

Will Brink

Audioholic
Why do you insist on digital coax? No optical for ya?
Well i saw at many places that the COAX tends to be better than optical in terms of delivering better sound.Before reading this i used to think that HDMI is better than optical which is in turn better than Coax.But after reading many forums and articles it seemed to me that coax is better than optical.Correct me if i got the wrong idea.
The Q is, are you trying to intentionally bipass the DAC in the unit using coax? If so, why? The NA6006 seems a well designed product all around for the $, uses quality SABRE DACs, and implemented well from what I can gather not being an expert on the topic. Use RCA, enjoy the music, done.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
ok i may be wrong to think that way.
so u mean if i take coax out from the streamer then the dac of that streamer wud also cm into the scene..is it wat u meant?
Assuming that u were referring to wat i have said above...no i dont want the dac of the streamer colouring the music any way.i intend just to use the dac on the marantz PM6007.but for that i have to use either the coax in or opt in on the marantz PM6007 rt?!thats why i wanted a coax out from streamer to connect to the opt in on my marantz.
You want a coax out on a streamer for an optical input on the integrated amp? You plan on converting them in between? Seems either a coax out or the optical out on the streamer would work....
 
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