Speakers don't matter

jliedeka

jliedeka

Audioholic General
...much. This sounds like heresy but hear me out. Room acoustics and speaker positioning have more to do with sound quality than the speakers themselves. There are very few speakers that totally suck. There are exceptions like HTIB cubes and Bose but most are decent within certain limitations.

The reason I think this is a life changing experience I recently had. I just finished up a remodel job on my living room. I added drapes and repositioned my speakers. The drapes plus a media shelf at the other reflection point seem to tame the room. You can see from my sig that I have some fairly low end monitors. They sound 10 times better now. There are some issues with cabinet resonance especially with symphonic music but for 90% of what I listen to, they are fine. I've concluded that positioning and room acoustics make all the difference.

I'm still looking to shrink that 10% gap with an upgrade. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't obsessed with good sound.

Jim
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
Speaker placement and room treatments are crucial but the source of the sound is still the most important. I think the other two seperate decent systems from great ones.;)
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
While I do agree that speaker position, and room acoustics are very important. I disagree that they are what "makes all the difference".

IMO sound quality starts with the speakers.
 
E

EJ1

Audioholic Chief
I believe the opposite.

85% speakers
15% placement/acoustics
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
I agree in principle with jlideka.

The room itself has a profound effect on the sound. I think he is right that speakers that are at least somewhat comparable will sound about the same in the same room and changes to the room can affect the sound for better or for worse.

When my living room went from sparse to fully furnished the sound changed. After recalibrating, it sounded a tad better than it did before but also because I now have lots of 'natural' absorption, I have to turn it up louder to get the same level when my internal snowblower (AC) kicks on.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
SQ is a 50/50 split IMO. Excellent speakers can sound awful in a poor listening room, and a good listening room won't compensate for poor speaker performance. There are so many factors in a speaker system that affect it's SQ, such as frequency response (are they as near to flat as possible on and off axis?). Another factor is cabinet resonance, most speakers have a ton of it. A select few speakers, in consumer branded audio, can deliver a near transparent experience if they are placed in a dedicated and appropriately treated room. Take the B&W Nautilus 802D speaker system, it has excellent on axis performance. If in properly treated room it is one of the best speakers you can just straight up buy with no cabinet modification that will perform like a speaker should. Now these speakers are expensive, not everyone can afford to go out and get those speakers and I'm not saying everyone should.

There are simply too many factors to be considered when trying to compare importance of room acoustics and speakers themselves to lay a definite percentage to either side, but I believe it will fall some place in the middle as that makes the most sense based on my experience. I have heard good speakers in horrible rooms, it sounds awful. I have heard some speakers sound decent in horrible room. A speaker needs a room and a room needs a speaker, they rely on each other to perform as a quality audio playback system. One cannot function its best without the other and speakers sound hugely different in most cases.
 
C

cutter

Audioholic
The room does make a difference!

I had Axiom M80's in my living room-- open floor plan, hardwood floors with area rug, not much on the walls.... and I HATED how they sounded. So, I upgraded and exiled my M80's to my upstairs office as punishment (Bad speaker, Bad!) The office is wall to wall carpet, smaller room, floor to ceiling bookcase along one wall... and wouldn't you know it, the M80's sound about three times better! I'll vote for the 50/50 split.
 
E

Exit

Audioholic Chief
I think the audio system has to be capable of reproducing quality sound first, and the most important part of the audio system, or the part that makes the most difference, is the speakers. If you can hear the system, or at least the speakers, on a demonstration and they sound good, then you know they at least have the potential to sound good if you set up your room correctly, or at least similar acoustically to the demonstration room. This may or may not include acoustic treatments, so I don’t see how acoustic treatments would be the first (most) important thing.

I would guess a majority of Audioholics (and certainly the general public) don’t have acoustic treatments per say (i.e. they may use bookcases, drapes, overstuffed furniture, etc.), although they may still benefit by their use. It would be interesting for the forum to conduct a poll of how much Audioholics spent (and separately plan to spend) on acoustic treatments for their audio setup. This could be done like the poll on how much Audioholics spent on their systems.

I think the room acoustic treatments for a multipurpose room (like a great room, family room or living room) would have a harder time with the WAF than the equipment itself. The wife would probably not approve of a multipurpose room looking like an anechoic chamber, as some vendors recommend. You are crossing the boundary between equipment and décor and that typically is the wife’s turf. If you have a dedicated home theater, then you probably have the say on what goes in it including acoustic treatments, but again I don’t think the majority of Audioholics or general public have dedicated (single purpose) HT rooms. (That’s another poll). So if you don’t get good speakers, you probably are not going to get room treatments as your first priority. It is the audio system, or speakers, first priority, then maybe room acoustic treatments as a second priority if you room needs them.
 
A

AdrianMills

Full Audioholic
Of course they do. Crap speakers will sound crap anywhere.

This sounds like heresy but hear me out. Room acoustics and speaker positioning have more to do with sound quality than the speakers themselves. There are very few speakers that totally suck. There are exceptions like HTIB cubes and Bose but most are decent within certain limitations.
Well, call me picky but I have heard far more speakers that I didn't like than I did (and I've listened to quite a few).

The reason I think this is a life changing experience I recently had. I just finished up a remodel job on my living room. I added drapes and repositioned my speakers. The drapes plus a media shelf at the other reflection point seem to tame the room. You can see from my sig that I have some fairly low end monitors. They sound 10 times better now. There are some issues with cabinet resonance especially with symphonic music but for 90% of what I listen to, they are fine. I've concluded that positioning and room acoustics make all the difference.

I'm still looking to shrink that 10% gap with an upgrade. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't obsessed with good sound.

Jim
So what you are saying is that you've finally set up your room and speakers correctly and now from that one experience you're telling us that, 1) most speakers sound pretty good or at least acceptable and 2) room acoustics are far more important at determining the sound we hear than the speakers themselves.

Sure, room acoustics are important for making the most of your speakers but like I said, a crap speaker will sound bad in any room and you can make even a good speaker sound awful in a very bad room but by itself, good room acoustics are meaningless without good speakers.

I've also heard very good speakers (my 804S and JM Lab 1027 for instance) sound very good in what I thought were quite bad rooms; now what do you make of that? :D
 
mouettus

mouettus

Audioholic Chief
We redid the family room 4 years ago. It was stucco walls and ceiling and carpet flooring. Even those Bose (*speakers were given to my mother*) were having a life back in the days. But when we redid the room (hardwood floors and gyprock), it changed the whole thing. Reflections all over the place. High echo. Still enjoyable. I bought Polk Audio speakers (which are bright) and used them for 3 years then realised it was time for something that fits my tastes a little better. The room is still the same but I have the Energy's now. Good enough for me.

All in all, speakers can really do something in the outcome.

...but wish I still had the carpet to absorb and the big stucco spikes to defuse. (DAMN was it ugly!)
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
We did some bias controlled listening tests about 10 years ago. In one of them, we put a $5000 pair of speakers in an acoustically poor room and a $700 pair of speakers in an acoustically excellent room. 70% of the testers preferred the $700 pair in the acoustically excellent room. So I have to say Jim is correct. I've said many times that room acoustics make or break an audio system, speakers are a distant second and everything else verges on the trivial.
 
S

syntheticwave

Enthusiast
The wife would probably not approve of a multipurpose room looking like an anechoic chamber, as some vendors recommend.
...the other solution would be a hudge diaphragm. In that case you are situated in nearfield, the playback room acoustic no longer does matter.

Regards Helmut
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
We did some bias controlled listening tests about 10 years ago. In one of them, we put a $5000 pair of speakers in an acoustically poor room and a $700 pair of speakers in an acoustically excellent room. 70% of the testers preferred the $700 pair in the acoustically excellent room. So I have to say Jim is correct. I've said many times that room acoustics make or break an audio system, speakers are a distant second and everything else verges on the trivial.
That is true when the room acoustics is so bad in the first place.

But if the room acoustics were already decent to begin with, then that's a different story.

In other words, not all rooms have bad acoustics.
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
We did some bias controlled listening tests about 10 years ago. In one of them, we put a $5000 pair of speakers in an acoustically poor room and a $700 pair of speakers in an acoustically excellent room. 70% of the testers preferred the $700 pair in the acoustically excellent room. So I have to say Jim is correct. I've said many times that room acoustics make or break an audio system, speakers are a distant second and everything else verges on the trivial.
A polished turd is still a turd at the end of the day.;)

Don't mind me, I just wanted to use that saying.:p
 
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A

AdrianMills

Full Audioholic
We did some bias controlled listening tests about 10 years ago. In one of them, we put a $5000 pair of speakers in an acoustically poor room and a $700 pair of speakers in an acoustically excellent room. 70% of the testers preferred the $700 pair in the acoustically excellent room. So I have to say Jim is correct. I've said many times that room acoustics make or break an audio system, speakers are a distant second and everything else verges on the trivial.
And of course you did an A/B comparison between the $5K and $700 speakers in the same room to get some sort of baseline for the room test? And which did the people prefer then?

Nobody is saying the room does not have any effect but if the expensive speakers were actually better speakers they should have sounded much better in the acoustically good room than the cheaper ones.
 
avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
There are a variety of factors that effect loudspeaker-room interaction. For example, some speakers, such as those with high directivity, will be perceived far more favorably than a speaker with wide, linear, frequency response in highly reverberant, non-treated environments, especially if placed close to boundaries. This is due to minimized room interaction.

Now if one took two such described speakers and placed them in a properly treated room, all else being equal, it has been shown, through credible research using many hundreds of participants, that listener preference will fall with the speaker having wider response whose off-axis matches its on-axis response most similarly.

As such determining the percentage effect that the room has on loudspeakers depends greatly on the specific speaker in question. A high quality horn speaker will have far less effect imparted by the room than a high quality omnipolar speaker. While the latter has potential to be perceived as far more realistic it requires specific acoustic thought to achieve this goal which is not necessary with the former.

As far as properly treating a room goes there are many factors that must be taken into account: resonance, axial and off-axis [directivity] response, room reverberation, room modes, seating location etc...

An excellent source of reading on the subject is Floyd Tooles' Loudspeaker and Rooms for Sound Reproduction - A Scientific Review published in the JAES Vol. 54, No. 6, 2006 June.
 
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