Speaker Quest By Eddie

[dronezero]

Your requirement for a wide sweet spot brought back a speaker that I had read a little about a while back. I have never heard them, and they don't have much written about them. They supposedly do away with the traditional sweet spot and maintain their imaging as you move about the room.

Anyways the speakers are from Podium Audio.
6moons review
"Just as with a musical instrument, listening to it does not require a hot seat simply because there is no sweet spot. Music is everywhere and you can walk around in it like you can at the venue."
Hi-Fi World Review PDF

Take it for what it's worth.

 

[jaxvon]

You cannot have huge dispersion and great imaging at the same time. These two characteristics are design opposites and they are s also heavily influenced by room acoustics as well. If you really don't care about imaging, then look an omnipolar designs such as those found in Mirage.

Wrong. Huge dispersion in a proper room will yield the most realistic soundstage possible, but this is assuming that the off axis response is smooth. Narrow dispersion will create a tiny sweet spot with a much 'flatter' image. Depending on your listening space or requirements, a speaker with narrow dispersion might be the best choice, nearfield studio monitoring being the most prominent example. You are correct that room acoustics are a major factor, but this is true of all loudspeakers. However, many omnipolar speaker designs are of poor quality, which is why I recommended the MBL 111B, despite its expense.

 

[WmAx]

An omnipole can easily have great imaging, and the best soundstage ability, as well as the most realistic tonal/timbre representation of acoustic instruments/voices. There is no mystery as to why, as it's all been covered in the credible perceptual research in the JAES over the years - which I follow and engineer speaker systems in accordance. However, an omnipole needs an acoustic treatment system in the environment that is usually only suited to dedicated listening room systems in order to accomplish optimum ability. The MBL 111B suggested earlier is a speaker that could probably sound near the best possible in a properly set up room, but it does require a high quality DSP E.Q. also, because the response from this speaker is literally too flat - while human listening subjects in controlled tests tend to prefer a slight tapered roll off in resonse to the objective of 'natural' perception tonality. To get the proper taper, a precision DSP EQ is the best tool available and should always be considered for the highest possible sound quality perception by a listener so that custom modifications of the speaker curve can be applied.

-Chris

 

[fired up]

Thanks all!

I would have to go to school and pay for the high quality of education that this forum has available for free.

Amazing posts.

The podium speakers were greeted by a resounding "No Way" from the Mrs. It was worth the try. I think the MBL is way out of my price range - but I understand (somewhat) the point you were making.

Thanks,

Eddie

 

[WmAx]

Thanks all!

I would have to go to school and pay for the high quality of education that this forum has available for free.

Amazing posts.

The podium speakers were greeted by a resounding "No Way" from the Mrs. It was worth the try. I think the MBL is way out of my price range - but I understand (somewhat) the point you were making.

Thanks,

Eddie

Understood about the MBL price. But as I said, some very non-conventional room treatments are also needed to make them perform ideal - so even if you could get them - the treatments might be objectionable to you. As for monopoles, if you can afford 12-13k, the B&W 802D is a superb choice. It offers nearly no timbre coloration(most speakers distort timbre of voices and instruments by a substantial degree due to mediocre cabinet systems that contribute significant acoustic output of their own) and a very flat frequency response(important for a neutral staring point tonally, and also, contributing partly to timbre neutrality), and a good off axis response. If you do not mind going used, you can buy the old B&W Matrix 801 Series II or III from eBay for $2000-$3000. It offers most of the performance and timbre accuracy of the 802D. It is simply older(from the late 80's) and thus devalued. I must point out once again, the critical importance of using a high quality DSP EQ with either of these speakers. These speakers are extremely accurate(802D is widely used in very high end studios such as Abbey Roads and Lucasfilm/Skywalker Ranch), and as such, a powerful/precision EQ can allow you to precisely dial in the tonality you prefer in all respects. Regular speakers can not be adjusted like this, as they have permanent colorations. In the case of regular(or most so-called high-end) speakers, the EQ is only acting like a sort of mask.

-Chris

 

[fired up]

Greetings,

I have 48 hours left to make a decision to purchase a slightly used pair of Acoustic Zen Adagios Floorstanders for $2700 before the deal falls through and they get listed on Audiogon for $3800 I believe.

Should I buy them and then slowly build up a surround sound speaker system by buying the center channel and rear surrounds from dealers as additional cash becomes available. I have to buy the Adagio Jr.'s and they are very expensive speakers for the center and rears.

Start off with all the electronics for a HT - just use mains for a while - and then come Christmas fill out the rest of the system for true HT.

Sound like a plan?

Please visit the Acoustic Zen site and read the reviews on the Adagios. At one point several years ago they were Stereophile Class A listed but have not been re-tested in a long time.

Thanks.

Eddie

 

[jaxvon]

Greetings,

I have 48 hours left to make a decision to purchase a slightly used pair of Acoustic Zen Adagios Floorstanders for $2700 before the deal falls through and they get listed on Audiogon for $3800 I believe.

Should I buy them and then slowly build up a surround sound speaker system by buying the center channel and rear surrounds from dealers as additional cash becomes available. I have to buy the Adagio Jr.'s and they are very expensive speakers for the center and rears.

Start off with all the electronics for a HT - just use mains for a while - and then come Christmas fill out the rest of the system for true HT.

Sound like a plan?

Please visit the Acoustic Zen site and read the reviews on the Adagios. At one point several years ago they were Stereophile Class A listed but have not been re-tested in a long time.

Thanks.

Eddie

Eddie,

I don't think the Acoustic Zen would achieve what you want from speakers. Their website is quite sparse on hard data regarding their speakers, and I am loathe to trust a company that manufactures and markets snake oil cables to make speakers. The specs that are available reveal that the speakers are quite lightweight for floorstanding speakers, indicating a lack of proper bracing and damping. With the large panels present, this will result in coloration from resonance, perhaps severe depending on the frequency of the mode(s). Also, I am unable to find any measurements of this speaker's on and off axis frequency response (or any other measurements for that matter). Remember that you're looking for a speaker with smooth, even off axis frequency response to create a huge soundstage and high sound quality throughout the room.

As for your plan, I would definitely recommend finding a great pair of stereo speakers and going from there.

 

[fired up]

Greetings All!

It gives me great pleasure to announce the purchase of the Speaker portion of my Home Theater setup and in the process obliterating any semblance of a budget. My wife just told me to "Go for it!" and I did.

I purchased the following:

(2) Acoustic Zen Adagio Floor Standing Loudspeakers
(1) Acoustic Zen Adagio Jr. Center Channel Speaker
(2) Acoustic Zen Adagio Jr. Surround Speakers
(2) 8' Lengths of Acoustic Zen Hologram Speaker Wire for Mains
(1) 4' Length of Acoustic Zen Satori Speaker Wire for Center Channel
(2) Custom made stands for Rear Surrounds
(2) 45' Lengths of Acoustic Zen Shiloh III Speaker Wire for Rear Surrounds

The Adagios & Adagio Jrs. are rated at 89 dB / 6 Ohms.

How much power / amplification do I need to run these optimally?

Thanks,

Eddie

 

[fired up]

jaxvon,

Thanks for your concern. I researched them, read all the reviews, asked a forum buddy to listen at his local deal, and finally drove 75 miles to audition them myself.

They were - quite simply - me.

Thanks,

Eddie

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Greetings All!

It gives me great pleasure to announce the purchase of the Speaker portion of my Home Theater setup and in the process obliterating any semblance of a budget. My wife just told me to "Go for it!" and I did.

I purchased the following:

(2) Acoustic Zen Adagio Floor Standing Loudspeakers
(1) Acoustic Zen Adagio Jr. Center Channel Speaker
(2) Acoustic Zen Adagio Jr. Surround Speakers
(2) 8' Lengths of Acoustic Zen Hologram Speaker Wire for Mains
(1) 4' Length of Acoustic Zen Satori Speaker Wire for Center Channel
(2) Custom made stands for Rear Surrounds
(2) 45' Lengths of Acoustic Zen Shiloh III Speaker Wire for Rear Surrounds

The Adagios & Adagio Jrs. are rated at 89 dB / 6 Ohms.

How much power / amplification do I need to run these optimally?

Thanks,

Eddie

Congratulations.

I would go for a full 200 watts per channel (8 ohms) like the $800 Emotiva XPA-5, which is actually stable for 4 ohms (300 wpc x 5).

 

[haraldo]

How much power / amplification do I need to run these optimally?

It depends very much on the amplifiers, there's no way of answering to such a question. What you may want to consider is a stereo amp with a Home Theater throughput (Like what the Krell amps have)
In this way you may have a dedicated stereo setup for music and still have the availability of the full 5.1 setup. In the 5.1 mode the front L + R channels are driven by the stereo amp while volume controlled by the AV controller

Perhaps you should check out the Emotiva products (www.emotiva.com) they are really running fast in their product development these days

 

[haraldo]

Greetings,
I started a thread on the HT forum because my A/V Gear was destroyed in a house fire. It is a long post with a great deal of helpful recommendations from the HT community. The bottom line is that I managed to get my wife and twin 6 year old sons out of harms way and then put out the blaze. I injured myself in the process and am on medical leave from burns to both forearms and compressed lumbar spinal vertabrae.

Eddie You are a very very brave man !!!!

These things are very scary and considering what you did there..... Makes me feel very humble. You are proving that you value the life and welfare of your family above anything else. If everyone was like you, the world would be a better place......

My most sincere regards

Harald N

 

[fired up]

Greetings,

I just got caught up in the excitement of finally buying something. The downside was that I should have had someone with me that knew Audio because everything sounded good on the painkillers for my burns, back, etc. I was really stupid, acted rashly and not responsibly, and feel I let you guys down who have been offering good advice from the very start of my joining the community. I'm sorry.

I am a fortunate man and the Adagio seller a man of integrity. He did not charge my credit card and canceled sale. He said that when I am ready to commit he will sell me just the front Adagio floorstanders, all speakers, no cable - whatever I decide on.

Since I read a link on the importance of timbre matching in HT I am not sure on having Transmission Line Front speakers and different designed CC and rears.

To save money I am not buying the Pioneer Elite KURO or non-elite version. I am waiting for May and buying the THX certified Panasonic Z800U in either 46" or 50" models. The prices I was quoted by an internet dealer with free shipping are fantastic. The pre-buzz on the TV's is spectacular. I will save thousands.

I am so relieved that I got out of the Adagio deal and cable mistake.
Tonight, I will post again. I am going to print out this thread and see what is helpful information. By now you realize that I want to put the bulk of my cash into GREAT sounding speakers for MUSIC first and HT second.

This time around - I will listen and am not going to any other forums - just this one. They all wished me "the best" and did not question my stupidity. I'll take honesty over cordiality any day when it comes to investing money.

Starting from a fresh slate - first new timbre matched similar design speakers.
Then - Pre/Pro or A/V Receiver
Followed by the rest of the source equipment.

Your Grateful Friend,
All Ears Now,

Eddie

 

[gus6464]

Greetings,

I just got caught up in the excitement of finally buying something. The downside was that I should have had someone with me that knew Audio because everything sounded good on the painkillers for my burns, back, etc. I was really stupid, acted rashly and not responsibly, and feel I let you guys down who have been offering good advice from the very start of my joining the community. I'm sorry.

I am a fortunate man and the Adagio seller a man of integrity. He did not charge my credit card and canceled sale. He said that when I am ready to commit he will sell me just the front Adagio floorstanders, all speakers, no cable - whatever I decide on.

Since I read a link on the importance of timbre matching in HT I am not sure on having Transmission Line Front speakers and different designed CC and rears.

To save money I am not buying the Pioneer Elite KURO or non-elite version. I am waiting for May and buying the THX certified Panasonic Z800U in either 46" or 50" models. The prices I was quoted by an internet dealer with free shipping are fantastic. The pre-buzz on the TV's is spectacular. I will save thousands.

I am so relieved that I got out of the Adagio deal and cable mistake.
Tonight, I will post again. I am going to print out this thread and see what is helpful information. By now you realize that I want to put the bulk of my cash into GREAT sounding speakers for MUSIC first and HT second.

This time around - I will listen and am not going to any other forums - just this one. They all wished me "the best" and did not question my stupidity. I'll take honesty over cordiality any day when it comes to investing money.

Starting from a fresh slate - first new timbre matched similar design speakers.
Then - Pre/Pro or A/V Receiver
Followed by the rest of the source equipment.

Your Grateful Friend,
All Ears Now,

Eddie

I think you made a mistake in not getting those Adagio if you liked them. For the most part timbre matching occurs when the same tweeter is used which they clearly use throughout the entire line. Zen advertises the Jr and towers for HT setup so I don't see why they wouldn't match just because of a port. Example of this is the B&W 68x series where the 685 are front ported and 686 are rear ported yet they sound exactly the same with the 685 dipping lower. Speakers are a very subjective matter and honestly you shouldn't care if someone says one speaker is better designed than another because all that should matter is what your ears tell you.

 

[haraldo]

Speakers are a very subjective matter and honestly you shouldn't care if someone says one speaker is better designed than another because all that should matter is what your ears tell you.

YES and one more thing.....

Sit down and listen, what equipment makes you forget about time and place, what equipment makes you just want to put on another CD, and then another one and then another one....

This is about enjoying the music

My advice is to buy phase/time coherent speakers... I lived with such for 15 years... and after buying a set of such speakers there's no going back.... It may take you a while to realize why, but they provide more about the music....
There's not many that does such speakers
Some out of business: Dunlavy, Meadowlark
Some still in business: Thiel, Vaf, Duntech, Vandersteen, Audio Machina

Many people will disagree with me but that's fine, I'm just stating my opinion. I have lived with some small Duntech PCL-15 shoeboxes for a long time, and they may be the most magical speakers I have heard, because they're designed by the principles of Mr John Dunlavy..... Remember Dunlavy is the sole reason there is an A+ classification in Stereophile, his "Dunlavy model VI" speakers were so good that they broke all classifications once upon a time.....

You could buy a set of second hand Dunlavy Model IV from Audiogon, within the limits of your budget, it will blow away most speakers at any price......

 

[Penny]

YES and one more thing.....

Sit down and listen, what equipment makes you forget about time and place, what equipment makes you just want to put on another CD, and then another one and then another one....

This is about enjoying the music

My advice is to buy phase/time coherent speakers... I lived with such for 15 years... and after buying a set of such speakers there's no going back.... It may take you a while to realize why, but they provide more about the music....
There's not many that does such speakers
Some out of business: Dunlavy, Meadowlark
Some still in business: Thiel, Vaf, Duntech, Vandersteen, Audio Machina

Many people will disagree with me but that's fine, I'm just stating my opinion. I have lived with some small Duntech PCL-15 shoeboxes for a long time, and they may be the most magical speakers I have heard, because they're designed by the principles of Mr John Dunlavy..... Remember Dunlavy is the sole reason there is an A+ classification in Stereophile, his "Dunlavy model VI" speakers were so good that they broke all classifications once upon a time.....

You could buy a set of second hand Dunlavy Model IV from Audiogon, within the limits of your budget, it will blow away most speakers at any price......

Yeah, and they're about 300 lbs. a piece.

Firedup--The adagio's weren't a bad choice by any means, those guys make unbelievable products.

Honestly, if I were you, and I'm being serious here, I would forego the painkillers for a few hours and make my way over to the nearest B&W retailer and have them set you up a comprehensive listening session. If, for nothing else, you will be listening to what many (most) in the industry consider to be the "standard" to which all others are compared. Now, I'm not saying they're greatest speakers on the planet (I do, however, love B&W) but they are straight forward, at times very neutral, and built with great care, precision, and top shelf componentry.

In the end, you will know what is "out there". From that point you will have a better understanding of the possibilities that await. Give it a try. I own the 802D's, some consider them to be getting towards the pinnacle of this hobby, others think they're overrated. Do you see what I'm driving at here? Hope this helped in some way.

 

[Swerd]

fired up

see my post about Salk SongTower speakers in the General AV Discussions. I think they may do many things similar to the Acoustic Zens you liked.

 

[Davemcc]

fired up

see my post about Salk SongTower speakers in the General AV Discussions. I think they may do many things similar to the Acoustic Zens you liked.

I have already linked Eddie to the Songtower page of Salk's site and to your comprehensive review of your pair of Songtowers (which left quite an impression on me.)

Eddie, I'm glad you had the opportunity finally to listen to the Adagio yourself, and expecially glad that you liked them.

 

[haraldo]

In my humble opinion the B&W products are overrated and overpriced and does not perform very well... Never liked them, they seem slow, floppy bass and not musical (in my opinion)

Every now and then these speakers are out there on the second hand market, outperforms 802D at a considerably lower pricetag
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1209255073

Running for cover ==:-O

 

[WmAx]

In my humble opinion the B&W products are overrated and overpriced and does not perform very well... Never liked them, they seem slow, floppy bass and not musical (in my opinion)

Every now and then these speakers are out there on the second hand market, outperforms 802D at a considerably lower pricetag
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1209255073

Running for cover ==:-O

I must ask: how is the Swift better as compared to the 802D? What is your definition of "perform very well"? In accordance to known important characteristics to human audibility, the 802D can be quantified as to performing superbly.

802D 3rd Party Measurements

Swift 3rd Party Measurements

I'm looking at the 3rd party measurements, and as far as what is better on the Swift......

It's not the cabinet. The Swift has a substantially resonant cabinet that distorts the timbre of the sound. The B&W 802D has a nearly inert cabinet that has no audible contribution. Resonance is an important characteristic as shown in credible perceptual studies.

It's not the crossover or driver combination. The Swift has very poor linearity, demonstrating a crude response. A smooth response on axis is important as demonstrated by credible perceptual studies. The waterfall plot also demonstrates substantial delayed energy in a wide band of the mid-range on the Swift, where as the 802D has little in the way of delayed energy.

It's not the off axis response. The Swift has abysmal off axis vs. on axis frequency response characteristics. Off axis response being more similar to on axis is a very important parameter as demonstrated in multiple highly credible perceptual studies.

It's not efficiency. The Meadowlark Swift requires about 2x the input power to reach the same SPL as compared to the B&W 802D.

So, what is better? The only thing I can presume is that one may prefer the built-in coloration of the Swift as compared to an actual high-fidelity speaker.

The 802D is a nearly ideal neutral reference monopole. You can use it with a precision DSP EQ and achieve any sound signature so desired, because it is neutral to begin with. The Swift is not neutral in any way - it has severe colorations in several areas. This will result in not being able to customize the sound to one's preference - using a precision DSP EQ with the Swift would result in mediocrity - as you could only attempt to mask the inherent flaws in the Swift.

-Chris