Speaker Guidance Thread - Need Recommendations for New Home Theater

[Rob from NJ]

I'm starting to plan my next HT system and am spending time reading speaker reviews and forums such as audioholics. I'm hoping you can provide guidance with speaker recommendations and any additional ideas you may have. Following is my requirements and information:

Current System: Def. Tech. ProCinema 1000 with 2000 center - Nice sounding at higher volumes, not so good at low volume

Projected Use: 95% Movies/TV and 5% music (If I had time, I would listen to more music, however, will most likely not happen)

Estimated Budget: $5,000 - $6,000 with the following rough breakout:
- Pair of Front Floor Standing Speakers - $3,000 to $3,500
- Center Speaker - $700 to $1,000
- Pair of Surrounds - $700 to $1,000
- Subwoofer - $500 to $700
Budget does not include Receiver and Amp. (Planning on an additional $1,500)

Room Environment:
- Large, open basement with a number of pillars/poles
- Estimated 800 sq. ft. with 7 foot high drop down ceiling
- Will sit 7-9 feet from front speakers
- Basement not solely dedicated to HT, even though with teenage daughters, more and more time will be spent with system
- Poor sound acoustics - not much furniture other than a couch, plastered walls, carpeted floors and poles
- Open walls will accommodate adequate separation of front speakers from front and side walls

Important to Note that my Wife does not like loud volume to enhance the system's performance. System needs to play great at low to moderate volume. She also does not like the walls shaking from the bass. The dog gets upset and when the dog gets upset, she does as well.

Timing: Not in a rush. Will audition as many speakers until I find the perfect match.

My Dream - As we all are, I'm looking for the perfect speaker system that my limited money can buy:
- I'm a stickler for accuracy and detail - Enjoy the subtle sounds of a movie-track, sounds that another speaker may not project
- Soundstage and Imaging - width, depth and height
- Ambiance - Need to feel like I'm in the movie, from the soft sound of a heel clicking against the ground to a punch in the gut
- I believe a great speaker for music should also be a great speaker for movies.

I recently demoed speakers, albeit primarily music demos, and was surprised by my opinions:
- Kef Q900 - Too sharp for my ears. Listening for more than 15 minutes will not be good for me.
- Goldenear Technology Triton 2 - My biggest expectation going in and my biggest disappointment - The bass was overwhelming and muddied. In fairness, I did not check what position the bass knob was turned to and will plan to hear these speakers again
- Def. Tech. Mythos STS - Very good detail/accuracy, however, a bit too bright. Definitely needs an external subwoofer
- Def. Tech. BP8040ST (No 8060 or 8080 available) - No opinion other than I liked the Mythos STS better. I'm concerned about front bipolar speakers with my room environment. Should I be?
- Martin Logan EM ESL - My biggest surprise. Best sounding. Very accurate. Could hear the fingers on the guitar. Couch shaking bass (without external subwoofer) which does not match its frequency specs. Good middle range. Was I only in a small sweet spot as I did not get up to walk around? Was it the room acoustics and this type of speaker would not work in my basement? Tons of questions, however, I loved what I heard.
- A few years ago, I demoed a PSB bookshelf speaker, as well as, Paradigm monitor speakers. Both sounded very thin and not to my liking. I will not characterize a brand, however, since my budget does not allow the top of the line models and there are way too many speaker brands in the industry, I need to start somewhere and start crossing off possibilities.
- Also listened to Klipsch floor standing speakers some years ago. Not a good match for me. Way too bright and forward.

I'm willing to consider ID Brands (Salk Songtowers, Philharmonic Audio, Ascend Sierras, Aperion Verus), however, without the ability to listen, this is an area where I would need guidance and a lot of faith. Setting up speakers and then having to deinstall/package up and ship back is not my area of expertise. I would want to avoid this.

Sorry for the long winded thread. Any help is appreciated and thank you for reading this thread. Any ideas out there?

 

[zieglj01]

With that type of budget, and the setup you have - along with your
desire to hear the delicate inner details - you need to look at doing
some acoustic treatments. That is a big investment, you desire to
make on a sound system.
If interested, read this for some ideas.
Feature Article

It is good, you are starting to audition speakers - the journey can be
interesting. Also, regardless of sound level - make sure to get a good
subwoofer or two.

 

[FirstReflection]

Hi there!

There's a lot to cover here, so I'll try to get straight to it

I hope you'll take what I write here in the spirit in which it's intended. I love home theater. I love talking home theater. But more than that, I love it when people spend their money wisely and get the performance that they're really after. So I'm going to address your ENTIRE sound system and some of it might not be exactly what you want to hear or what you were expecting to hear, but I'm all about trying to help folks avoid wasting money and disappoitment. So that's the goal here!

From everything you've described, it seems as though you're trying to address all of your sound issues and desires with the gear alone. I've got to level with you and try to get you to understand that that is a losing battle. The room is a full 50% of your sound system. And no speakers, no matter how much you spend or how good they are, can overcome a bad room.

There are a number of things that you've detailed that have me a bit worried. You're planning to spend WAY more on your Front L/R speakers than on your subwoofers or center. If this were a 90% music system, that might make sense. But you've said it's mostly movies and TV, so that plan is not what I would recommend. You've also said that you want to feel engrossed in the movie and have all the detail and that "hit you in the gut" impact. But at the same time, you want low volume levels and low output from your subwoofers. Sadly, your desires and those restrictions simply do not go hand-in-hand.

But more than that, I truly believe that some of your wife's (and dog's ) complaints are being attributed to things other than the real cause. You say your wife doesn't like loud playback. In truth, when people say things are "too loud", what it usually indicates is that they are too high in distortion. When you have almost no distortion, you can turn the volume up surprisingly high. Things do not sound "louder" when there is no distortion, they just sound "closer". Raw SPL (sound pressure level) is not the problem. Distortion and noise are the problem.

When it comes to bass, the biggest problem is structure-borne transmission. Bass waves are long and powerful. But more than that, subwoofers also physically vibrate. The end result is that the floor couples with the subwoofer and also physically shakes, which then shakes the walls and the ceiling and ultimately, your entire house! The bass waves themselves will also cause the walls, ceiling and floor to resonante at certain frequencies, and once the structure is carrying the sound it travels VERY easily to other rooms or neighboring apartments.

So again, we end up coming back to the room itself. You've got two major problems with the room as it is now from what you described:

1) it is not well isolated from the rest of the house, so when you play something in the theater, the rest of the house can easily hear it.

2) it sounds as though you have a bit of a difficult room in terms of acoustics. You've got an open plan - which is a nightmare for bass - and you are trying to "focus" the sound and glean a good soundstage, imaging and detail, but you didn't mention any plans to address your room's acoustics.

So here is how I would encourage you to proceed. Don't worry about speakers and amps and receivers and all that for the moment. First, let's focus on your room! Your room will tell us what speakers to get, how much amplifier power you will need, how much subwoofer output you will need, etc.

What would really help would be a diagram of the room and some photos if possible. We need to understand your room and hopefully be able to address some of its problems before we worry about speakers and the rest of the gear. Get your room in order and the rest is actually relatively easy! But try to get the sound you want by only thinking about the speakers and you're in for a long and difficult process.

Trust me, I know how easy it is to get excited about the gear! We're all here because we love our "speaker porn" But when you're after the sort of sound and experience that you're describing, it simply doesn't make sense to ignore a full 50% of the system and jump way too far ahead to picking out speakers. It's just a recipe for disappointment, and I don't want you to feel as though you wasted your money! So I hope you'll let us help in the best way possible. Let's really focus on the room. We'll do as much as we can and you are able to do with the room. And then we'll get the speakers and amps and subs that work best with the environment

 

[Nuance AH]

^ That is the best post of the year so far, seriously. Well said sir, so much so that I have nothing more to add.

 

[agarwalro]

IMHO, the whole point of getting a banging home theater is to get that sizzle, pop and grinning ear-to-ear because of the earth shattering deep bass feeling. Creating a great setup and throttling it down by not cranking the volume seems like a waste. Watching Oprah will not cut it, even if Tom Cruze is jumping on YOUR couch. Just saying...

+1 for room treatments. Most problems with excessive volume and listener fatugue occur because the ear tells us to compensate for nulls by pushing the overall volume up and this causes excessive peaks, corresponding resonances within room and distortion from overburdening amp and/or speakers. You will find that a properly put together room does not require you to push the volume up all the time. This will address some of the WAF concerns.

Based on projected use and estimated budget, I'd recommend going with a very well laid out room and modest 5.2 setup.

 

[Rob from NJ]

Zieglj01, thank you for posting the Acoustics treatments article. As a newbie, it's an area I don't know much about and the reading will help.

FirstReflection, your reply is most educational and insightful. It got me thinking and I feel the need to clarify certain information provided, as well as, provide additional information. I'm with you about spending money wisely to get the performance one desires.
I re-read my post and believe I overemphasized my gear and room acoustics resulting in the issues of poor quality sound and the wife's displeasure (can't forget the dog).
To define my issues with my setup:
1. In order for dialogue to be understandable to a degree, I will turn up the volume and when the action scene hits, it has too much distortion for my wife. Thus, the complaints about playing the speakers loud.
2. My subwoofer is the Def. Tech. Pro1000 and is a small subwoofer by all accounts. I have the dial set to approximately the 10:00 position. One can hear the rumblings of the subwoofer through the vents of the house, thus, its traveling to the upper 2 levels of the house. Twice in 4+ years, I caused the walls to vibrate by significantly turning up the dial position. The dog started howling and my wife never lets me forget. LOL!
These issues can be attributed to a large number of factors, many of which will be corrected with my next setup (not in any particular order):
1. Room Acoustics - I believe my basement is more absorbent than live based on the lack of hard surfaces such as glass, hardwood floors and cemented walls. My floor is carpeted, my walls are covered with sheetrock panels/dry wall. There is no pinginess and/or echos typical with high frequency issues.
2. Basement with Living Area - We built a separate and closed off bedroom and bathroom for live-in help. A person lives in the basement and we've been conditioned to keep sound low out of respect for the individual(s) who reside there. This factor goes away within 1 year. The compromise of not having a dedicated HT room.
3. Placement of the HT - My real estate for the HT is limited to a corner with a short wall, up against a back room with a heating system and water heater. Every time the heat and AC is running (most of the year), the system's sound is noticeable while watching TV/listening to music. In addition, our venting system captures the frequency from the subwoofer. This will be corrected as I plan to move my HT to another part of the basement.
4. Subwoofer Placement - Up against the corner of 2 walls, causing boominess. Once again due to lack of real estate and this will change when I move the HT with much better options.
5. Def. Tech. System - Low level resolution tradeoff. I find the ProCinema 1000 needs more power than normal, especially if you need to follow dialogue (concurs with a Home Theater review back a 4-5 years ago). Turn up the volume and the soundfield opens up with greater definition. Turn it up and the distortion from action scenes is too much for my wife. Trade-off is loss of dialogue.
6. Driver - I'm using an Onkyo 709, nice mid-level AVR. There has been a number of times, the amps are clipped and the AVR goes into protection mode and shuts off the system. (I carefully checked the wiring with electricians and the wiring did not cause the AVR to shut off). In summary, I need an upgrade to the driver (possibly separates) and this may help the sound, as well.
7. My wife's ears are different than mine. She thinks I'm going deaf. This is all a compromise.

I will figure out how to develop and post a diagram of my basement's dimensions/shape over the next few days for your input. Yes, I agree there's more to this than purchasing gear to overcome issues in order to achieve great sound, however, there are compromises that we all have to live with. If I can plan for better layout, HT placement, gear and improvements to acoustics my goals are achievable.

agarwalro, I hear you about the bass feeling, noting the detailed, subtle and accurate sounds are just as important to me. I'd like to hear your ideas for a modest 5.2 setup.

FirstReflection, want to go back about the budget breakout and focus on the front speakers. My assumption, and I may be incorrect, is if a speaker performs well for music and is accurate it will perform well for movies (excluding the bass equation). My investment is focused on acquiring the best fronts that I can with a plan to eventually add on to the bass. I can add bass for "boom boom" action, however, the addition of a second subwoofer will not add to the accuracy of the fronts. Thus, want to get the fronts right the first time and then add bass. Yes, my budget for 1 subwoofer taking a look at pricing for Epik, HSU, SVS, Rythmik (as examples) is maybe $100 - $200 off for a good 12" sub (and I can up that estimate), however, I want to focus on the fronts. Your comment on the Center, as the Center is the main dialogue speaker is very valid and I'm using pricing estimates based on many centers with fronts that fit into my budget.

Thank you for all the help. It's appreciated.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Does your dealer allow you to return the speakers if they don't sound great in your room?

If not, Amazon does.

Amazon.com: MartinLogan ElectroMotion ESL Hybrid Electrostatic Loudspeaker (Black, Each): Electronics

You can call Amazon customer service and confirm before you buy.

I think if you have any doubts, you must buy from a place that will allow returns.

For subs, I would get 2 Rythmik FV12 subs (500 each) to even the bass response in that big room. I was going to say 4 subs, but your wife would say no.
If you have just one sub, one side of your room will have more bass than the other side.

 

[Rob from NJ]

AcuDefTechGuy,
your approach is spot on. For me, this is going to be about trial and error in my home environment, via home listening trials prior to purchase. I demoed the ML EM ESLs at Electronics Expo and would prefer dealing with Amazon's return policy compared to a Box Store.
The ML EM ESL is definitely on my short list, however, would like to listen again at EE due to comments I've read stating they have a very small sweet spot and outside of the sweet spot the sound is distorted. I did not get up from my couch position during the demo and will try again.
Regarding bass and 2 subwoofers, did not think about balancing the playing field. Let me ask a question. Do you believe there is an advantage, in terms of performance and cost, to buying front speakers with internal subwoofer capabilities (i.e. GE Triton 2, Def. Tech. BiPolars) combined these fronts with 1 subwoofer in the rear as an example, as opposed to 2 external subwoofers with fronts w/o internal subwoofer capabilities?
I'm very early on in my process and eventually will get to a short list of speakers to conduct listening trials.
Thanks for all your help.

 

[zieglj01]

If you have just one sub, one side of your room will have more bass than the other side.

If you are going to remodel the basement - then, here you go!
World's Largest Horn Subwoofer Makes Impressive Home Theater

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would prefer dealing with Amazon's return policy compared to a Box Store.

The ML EM ESL is definitely on my short list, however, would like to listen again at EE due to comments I've read stating they have a very small sweet spot and outside of the sweet spot the sound is distorted.

Do you believe there is an advantage, in terms of performance and cost, to buying front speakers with internal subwoofer capabilities.

I can vouch for Amazon customer service. Best in the world. Second to none.

I think a lot of people may consider ML, Magnepan, & Mirage speakers as "inaccurate" because their on-axis and off-axis frequency responses are not linear/flat/smooth when compared to speakers like Philharmonic, Salk, Ascend, Revel, KEF, PSB, Paradigm.

I prefer Revel, KEF, Linkwitz, Salk, Ascend, & Philharmonic, but everyone is different.

You already said you do not prefer KEF & PSB, which are considered by most people to be accurate speakers.

Let your audition be the judge, not the speaker measurements or everyone's opinions.

I think built-in subs are for folks who like listening to Pure Direct 2.0 music or don't have the room or budget for external subs, which is fine for their situation. I think when possible, it's better to get towers without built-in subs and buy 2 separate subs.

Few years ago I only listened to Pure Direct 2.0 music and speakers like the DefTech BP7000SC and RBH T2/P are nice for that.

But I now believe 2.1 music is just as good as Pure Direct 2.0 on my Denon AVP/AVR.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

BTW, Audio Advisor is having a sale on ML.

53% off on Vista.

Amazon.com: MartinLogan Vista High-Performance Electrostatic Speaker (Single, Black Ash/Black Aluminum): Electronics


Amazon has the Vantage @ 30% off.

Amazon.com: MartinLogan Vantage High-Performance Electrostatic Speaker (Single, Black Ash/Black Aluminum): Electronics

 

[zieglj01]

You already said you do not prefer KEF & PSB, which are considered by most people to be accurate speakers.

Let your audition be the judge, not the speaker measurements or everyone's opinions.

Life is short - what you invest in, and that which brings you joy, is all that will matter. Take your time
with your auditions and have fun, no one needs to worry about answering to a review board.

 

[FirstReflection]

Hey, Rob.

Thanks for getting back with some more details. More info is always helpful!

I'd definitely really like to get a look at a diagram and/or some photos. That is really going to be key.

The reason I'm saying it isn't time yet to start worrying about which speakers to buy is because some of that budget might be better spent to address some of the issues in your room. It's fine and dandy to find some $3000/pair speakers that you like. But it could very well turn out to be the case that you'd be much better served by spending $1500 on the room and $1500 on a pair of speakers rather than all $3000 on the speakers alone. So I'm just trying to take things a step at a time and in the proper order. Address your room and the acoustic environment first. Then see how much money you have left for your speakers

I completely understand that you will have compromises with your system. I like to think I'm a very practical guy when it comes to recommendations. I'm not going to tell you that it's ONLY worth doing if you spend tens of thousands to build an entirely new room within a room and then put four subwoofers in it and amps and speakers that have ample headroom and no distortion up to and above 115dB at your seat. That would be ideal , but it just isn't reality for most folks I'm more about trying to strike the right balance. If $1500 spent on the room can make a bigger improvement than spending an extra $1500 on the speakers and doing nothing to the room, I think it makes sense to go that route. On the other hand, if you're totally hamstrung as to what you can do with the room, then we'll try to find the gear that will best work with what you have. But worrying about speaker recommendations without considering the room or making adjustments to the room, I just don't think that's a wise way to proceed. So that's why I'd like for you to think about the room first - since that's the half of your audio system that is likely to have the most non-variables to it

Your concerns about being able to hear the dialogue clearly are a common concern and problem. More often than not, the problem is actually the placement of the seating. Many people have the back of their chair or couch pushed right up against the back wall. As a result, they get strong reflections off of that back wall, which make dialogue difficult to understand. Such placement also amplifies certain sections of the bass and really makes things sound uneven and "muddy". I don't know how you have your seating positioned at the moment, but one should always strive to have a good distance - at least 3 feet - from the back of the seating to the back wall behind the seating.

Another issue for dialogue can be the placement of the center speaker. Many people place the center speaker on a table or inside a shelf. Or they might put it above the TV. If the front edge of the center speaker is recessed, you'll get an extremely strong reflection as the sound bounces off of the table top or off of the shelving unit, which can destroy dialogue intelligability. A center speaker should always be positioned so that the front baffle of the speaker hangs out over and in front of any surface on which it is placed to avoid this strong reflection.

Of course, there's the quality of the speaker itself. Center speakers are VERY difficult to design properly. The horizontal design is a bit of a nightmare. Simply using the same drivers as the other front speakers is not enough. Even using the exact same speaker simply laying on its side is not enough. The idea is that the front three speakers sound identical . The easiest way to do this is to genuinely use three identical speakers all oriented the same way - ie. all standing vertical. But this is often not practical or aesthetically pleasing, hence the standard horizontal center design.

And there's also the dynamics and the mix of the soundtrack itself. Movies can have a wide dynamic range. "Reference" volume calls for the average sound level during your basic dialogue and non-action sequences to be 85dB - which is quite loud - often about 10dB louder than most people will listen at home. But the peaks of explosions or loud music cues and such can be up to 20dB louder at a whopping 105dB! And the low bass effects can be even louder, with peaks up to 115dB!

So your wife's not crazy when she says that the action scenes are WAY louder than the dialogue-heavy scenes. They most certainly can be. And they are designed that way on purpose. That's where a dynamic volume program, like Dolby Volume or your standard "Night Mode" can come in handy. The old "Night Mode" settings that we've had for many years now are a simple dynamic compression program. They simply make quiet scenes louder and louder scenes quieter so that everything is pretty much the same volume. The reason nobody likes to use "Night Mode" though is because it makes things sound unnatural and it destroys a lot of detail.

When the movie is mixed, certain, subtle details are mixed in quieter than the more important sounds. But these quieter details are what make the audio sound natural and "full". When you crush all the dynamics with a "Night Mode", you lose most of the these subtle details, or they get unnaturally amplified so that they don't sound right anymore.

The newer dynamic volume programs try to do a better job. They will amplify the quieter details that might get lost when the entire volume level is brought down, but they will try to keep the relative mix sounding more natural - just with much less difference between the loudest and quietest sounds. Personally, I think Dolby Volume does the best job. But there is also THX Loudness Plus and Audyssey Dynamic EQ + Dynamic Volume that do similar processing.

You made mention of a lot of potential changes in the not too distant future to the room and no longer having your live-in help living close to the theater space. So I wanted to ask: are you simply wanting to buy some speakers now that you can enjoy for the time being with the plan being to maybe change the room significantly in the future? If so, I think I better understand why you're looking for speaker suggestions right now. I can understand wanting to have better speakers and sound right now and then knowing that you'll be able to improve the room later, but that you can't do it right now due to other circumstances.

If future room improvements are a totally separate budget, then I don't have a big problem with you getting some new speakers right now. However, I would still recommend that you at least consider and make some preliminary plans as to what you would like to do with your room in the future when circumstances allow for some changes and improvements. Again, it's a system. And the room is 50% of that system. It's fine to know that you won't be addressing the room until later. But that doesn't mean ignoring the room right now. Instead, plan ahead. You might not be able to make it happen right this minute. But if you plan ahead, that will allow you to make a better informed purchase of your speakers right now so that when you DO get around to the room, the speakers will be ready and waiting to drop right in place and perform the way you always wanted them to

 

[Rob from NJ]

FirstReflection,
Once again, thank you for the informative reply. I will post pictures of the room tomorrow. I need my daughter to show me how to transfer pictures from my cell phone to my Mac. Just not technically savvy.

Regarding the basement, I did some measurements today and need to correct certain information. The room's length is 25 feet and its width is 27 feet (excludes the closed off living area and backroom with heating, ventilation, water systems). Thus, 800 sq. feet is inaccurate.
My current HT setup is up against a 9 foot wall (includes a 61" Projection TV on top of a stand) and is next to a door area, approx. 4 feet in width, leading to the backroom.

I sit approx. 10 feet from the TV, giving me approx.13 feet behind me to the far wall (2 ft. from the front wall to TV). The sitting area is not up against the far wall, however, is up against a side wall. The far right of the couch is 2 ft. from the side wall.

The horizontal center speaker is below the TV on a stand, approx. 1.5 ft from the floor to the top of the speaker (not enclosed or on a table). My fronts are approx. 4 ft. from the front wall, also on stands, however, only measure 32" from the ground to the top of the speaker. Even though, my couch is old and we sink in, clearly the listening position is higher than my front speakers tweeters, and will need to correct this in the future.

My plan is to set up my HT across the far wall from the current setup, giving me an extra 4 feet of wall space to utilize (the far wall measures 13 ft. because it does not have the adjacent door to the backroom).

The above description is the best I can do as an alternative to a diagram. Pictures of the basement will supplement this information.

My budget to do some improvements to my basement is exclusive from the budget numbers I provided. At a minimum, we plan to re-carpet the basement and purchase a new sectional as my couch is old. We'll also hang some pictures. This will be complete prior to the purchase of speakers.

In regards to plans for my new HT, I'm at a minimum about 1 year away from implementing, with the possibility of 1.5 years. Thus, no plans to buy now, however, I just started researching equipment requirements, including speakers, and will conduct research until such time that I implement.

I find sourcing speakers to be an almost impossible activity that requires tons of researching/reading reviews and forums, as well as, listening to as many speakers as possible to understand what my ears like. Sourcing speakers is a very subjective area. With dozens of companies/lines/models and different distribution channels which make it very difficult to listen to the products other than room environments that are unlike my home, I will spend the upcoming year, going from audio shop to audio shop in the NJ/NYC area listening to speakers, as well as, spending many hours reading. The objective is to come up with a real short list to trial in my home, prior to purchase.

In summary, I have no plans to purchase now, however, plans to demo as many speakers as possible based on recommendations from folks that know more than I do about speakers.

Hope this helps to answer some of your questions and thanks for your efforts.

Regards,
Robert

 

[Rob from NJ]

FirstReflection,
One additional note. In my opening thread, I provided "timing" as not in a rush and will demo speakers until such time that I find a perfect match. There's always the possibility I will come across the perfect speaker for me, which will most likely lead to an in home trial with my current setup (prior to room improvements and the 1 - 1.5 years time frame). If I do find speakers that are vastly superior to any other speakers I hear and are within my budget, I will act and make a purchase. However, I'm skeptical of this outcome. This should give you an understanding of my timeframe and the possibility of keeping an open mind with flexibility.

 

[FirstReflection]

Hi, Rob.

Thanks for clearing up your plans and clarifying what sort of timeline you're looking at. That's a smart move on your part to start early so that you get plenty of auditions and really figure out what you like ahead of time!

Yes, any photos or diagrams will definitely be a big help in planning your room for the future. You have a very large space - well over 5000 cubic feet of air volume. That's going to present quite a challenge when it comes to the bass. Subwoofers do not "know" where the designated "theater area" ends. They simply attempt to pressurize any and all open areas where the air can move! So getting the performance you want while keeping output under control so that you are not physically shaking the entire house is going to be a challenge. But we'll talk more about that when we have some photos and diagrams to look at. There might be some alternatives...not sure yet.

If you are planning some renovations to the space and you have some additional money set aside for those renovations, then there are a whole world of possibilities that you might not have considered. For example, I'm not sure if you are open to tearing down some existing drywall. If you are, you could really address some of your sound isolation issues. You could make some changes to your HVAC ducts to reduce the flanking noise of bass and other sounds travelling via the ducts to the upper levels of your house. There are "muffler" and decoupling products for ducts available, but obviously, you would need access to the existing ducts in order to install them.

You can also renovate the walls themselves to add substantial soundproofing. I would strongly recommend that you head on over to Sound Proofing Company and read absolutely everything in their Articles and Library sections to get a better understanding of modern soundproofing techniques. You've mentioned several problems that you have with sound outside the theater getting into the theater and disrupting your enjoyment (ie. the utility room) as well as sound from inside the theater getting out and bothering other rooms in the house. So soundproofing seems to be a real concern for you, and there are a wide variety of products and methods that you might be able to apply depending on how extensive a renovation you are willing to undertake and, of course, your budget as well

Soundproofing is one thing, acoustics within the theater are another. I perked right up when you mentioned wanting to hang pictures on the walls. I'm not sure if you're familiar with them, but there are "Art" acoustical panels where you can have literally any image you like printed onto absorptive acoustic panels that you can hang on your wall just like a painting or poster! There are a fantastic way to "hide" some helpful acoustic panels that serve a double purpose of helping your acoustics and looking great in place of a standard painting, poster or picture.

Acoustimac and GiK Acoustics both offer these "Art" panels at reasonable prices. For certain, this is something you should strongly consider

Since you are auditioning speakers for the next year or so, I will highly recommend that you try to find an RBH dealer so that you can hear some RBH speakers for yourself. Given your descriptions of what you've liked and disliked so far, I think RBH might be right up your alley. Certainly worth an audition in any case

Magnepan would also be well worth a listen. If you enjoyed the Martin Logan electrostatic speakers, you might also really like Magnepan. You should note, however, that Magnepan's speakers really require quite a lot of open space around them (no shoving them into a corner or close to a wall ) and they also gobble up amplifier power like crazy

It's also worth noting that Aperion allows you to audition their speakers in your home and Aperion pays the shipping BOTH ways. It's a truly no-risk trial. With that, there's really no reason NOT to audition Aperion's speakers, so I would certainly recommend giving them a try

Finally, when you are auditioning, try not to worry about or think about the bass too much. People almost always tend to favor speakers that have more bass, but in your actual system, the bass is going to be handled by your subwoofers. In all honesty, it's almost a completely separate part that you can isolate and consider separate and alone from the rest of the audio system. Bass has very unique concerns that don't really affect the higher frequencies. As such, you can consider your subwoofer purchase pretty much on its own. The only real caveat being that your other speakers must play low enough on their own in order to get a good cross-over and blend between the subwoofers and speakers.

But try to take the bass a set it aside in your considerations. We'll have plenty of time to talk about bass and subwoofers. When you are auditioning speakers, see if you can get the salespeople to turn on the cross-over in the receiver or pre/pro and set it to 80Hz. Basically, take the differences in bass performance out of the equation. It's far too easy to have your opinion swayed by the bass produced by a speaker, when in reality, it's almost a non-concern once you have a full system with your room and subwoofers in place.

 

[frsimms]

I would recommend that you take a day trip to see Dennis Murphy. He lives in a suburb of Washington DC. He is the one that makes the Philharmonic speakers. I think they would be much better than the Martin Logans or the Magnepans. They have a tone that is not that far from the Martin Logans. They have a very wide sweetspot so you could have others watch with you. They also have very good dispersion too. Since you will have subs, you could get by with the Philharmonic 1's or 2's. Dennis could advise you on the center and the surrounds.

Bob

 

[Rob from NJ]

I would recommend that you take a day trip to see Dennis Murphy. He lives in a suburb of Washington DC. He is the one that makes the Philharmonic speakers. I think they would be much better than the Martin Logans or the Magnepans. They have a tone that is not that far from the Martin Logans. They have a very wide sweetspot so you could have others watch with you. They also have very good dispersion too. Since you will have subs, you could get by with the Philharmonic 1's or 2's. Dennis could advise you on the center and the surrounds.

Bob

Bob,
Thank you for your reply. I saw a video of the Salk Soundscape and if the Philharmonic sounds anything close to the Soundscape, I would be very excited to take a listen. The Soundscape is financially out of my range, however, when I starting reading forum reviews on the Philharmonics, I see possibilities.

Looking over the specs./measurements, one concern is the quality and investment in drivers that will be needed. Am I looking at top of the line pre/pros and amps to ensure the speakers run smoothly and I get the necessary performance from the speakers?

Also, another question is use of Philharmonics for movies. I noticed many folks on the Philharmonic threads are really into music, not so much HT. Understanding that a subwoofer (or two) will get me the bass at the lower end for the shock treatment, the channel speaker that Mr. Murphy designs/recommends will be crucial for dialogue.

Do you own Philharmonics and if yes, any impressions of its use for movies?

Would love to come down to Washington DC this spring or summer. What's the best way to arrange a listening with Mr. Murphy and/or his folks? Does he have a showroom to demo the Philharmonics?

Thank you for all your help and I am extremely interested to learn more.

 

[frsimms]

A friend bought a pair of Philharmonic 2s and I wrote a review of them. Yes, they are a bit soft on movies and TV but adding a good sub fixed the problem. Dennis builds the speakers in his house. He is retired so finding a time to visit him would be easy. He has most of the Salk line including SoundScapes so you can compare the Phils with them if you want. You could even bring your own speakers to compare with them.

My friend even liked the sound of the Phils with my cheap $250 Panasonic receiver better than my expensive stuff. I didn’t agree though.

Bob




Edit: This is Dennis's website. It has his contact info on it.

 

[Rob from NJ]

A friend bought a pair of Philharmonic 2s and I wrote a review of them. Yes, they are a bit soft on movies and TV but adding a good sub fixed the problem. Dennis builds the speakers in his house. He is retired so finding a time to visit him would be easy. He has most of the Salk line including SoundScapes so you can compare the Phils with them if you want. You could even bring your own speakers to compare with them.

My friend even liked the sound of the Phils with my cheap $250 Panasonic receiver better than my expensive stuff. I didn’t agree though.

Bob




Edit: This is Dennis's website. It has his contact info on it.

Bob,
I read your review on the Philharmonic 2s and it was great. What really caught my attention is the reminder of electrostatic speakers, of which I heard the Martin Logan for the first time and was really impressed by the transparency of the sound. I could actually visualize the guitar player.

However, the most important part of your review is the Philharmonic 2s playing well at low volumes. Even though I have teenage daughters and sometimes things get crazy, my wife is a stickler for a peaceful and quiet home, and that especially includes time in the evening when watching movies/TV. I am desperate for speakers that play well at low to moderate volume so I can fully understand the dialogue, as well as, not miss out on other parts of the movie sound track.

Its great that Mr. Murphy is having folks in his home to listen, especially with the Soundscapes, as well. I understand, reading the forums that he's close to or already there with selling a center and surrounds (rather large looking monitors from the forums). I will contact Philharmonic Audio later in the year (spring/summer) and see if I can make an appointment for a listen. A trip down to the Washington DC area to listen to the Philharmonic 2s would be awesome. Thank you for all your help.