Speaker cable thought

A

aceinc

Audioholic
Some things I think I know (a little knowledge can be dangerous);

  1. Smaller gauge wire will work better at higher frequencies due to skin effect.
  2. Heavier gauge wire works better at lower frequencies due to power requirements and the these signals will use the entire diameter of the cable.
  3. Lots of individual insulated wires increase the capacitance.
These are some of the things I think I know. I am not an EE.

The half baked idea part;

Would it make sense to combine two/four large gauge wires with a number of smaller gauge wires to form a single speaker cable?

For example a four conductor 14 gauge with a 28 gauge CAT 6. The cable would be terminated with 2 of the 4 conductor wires and 4 of the 8 conductor wires on each "plug."

Not being an EE I have no clue as to whether the signals would go where I want them to go, or if they would appear to the signal like just one conductor. I just finished watching Gene's video
as well as Paul McGowan's video
.

In Gene's video he says the sound differences are imperceptible but marginally measurable. Paul said bigger is better for low frequencies, which I imagine Gene would agree with. I think it would be interesting to use Gene's test gear to test my idea, but I haven't got $10's of thousands of laying about for test gear.

So if anyone has done any actual testing, or has a solid science based explanation why it will or won't work, I'd like to hear it.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Ninja
Some things I think I know (a little knowledge can be dangerous);

  1. Smaller gauge wire will work better at higher frequencies due to skin effect.
  2. Heavier gauge wire works better at lower frequencies due to power requirements and the these signals will use the entire diameter of the cable.
  3. Lots of individual insulated wires increase the capacitance.
These are some of the things I think I know. I am not an EE.

The half baked idea part;

Would it make sense to combine two/four large gauge wires with a number of smaller gauge wires to form a single speaker cable?

For example a four conductor 14 gauge with a 28 gauge CAT 6. The cable would be terminated with 2 of the 4 conductor wires and 4 of the 8 conductor wires on each "plug."

Not being an EE I have no clue as to whether the signals would go where I want them to go, or if they would appear to the signal like just one conductor. I just finished watching Gene's video
as well as Paul McGowan's video
.

In Gene's video he says the sound differences are imperceptible but marginally measurable. Paul said bigger is better for low frequencies, which I imagine Gene would agree with. I think it would be interesting to use Gene's test gear to test my idea, but I haven't got $10's of thousands of laying about for test gear.

So if anyone has done any actual testing, or has a solid science based explanation why it will or won't work, I'd like to hear it.
Just have a read of the following link:

 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Some things I think I know (a little knowledge can be dangerous);

  1. Smaller gauge wire will work better at higher frequencies due to skin effect.
  2. Heavier gauge wire works better at lower frequencies due to power requirements and the these signals will use the entire diameter of the cable.
  3. Lots of individual insulated wires increase the capacitance.
These are some of the things I think I know. I am not an EE.

The half baked idea part;

Would it make sense to combine two/four large gauge wires with a number of smaller gauge wires to form a single speaker cable?

For example a four conductor 14 gauge with a 28 gauge CAT 6. The cable would be terminated with 2 of the 4 conductor wires and 4 of the 8 conductor wires on each "plug."

Not being an EE I have no clue as to whether the signals would go where I want them to go, or if they would appear to the signal like just one conductor. I just finished watching Gene's video
as well as Paul McGowan's video
.

In Gene's video he says the sound differences are imperceptible but marginally measurable. Paul said bigger is better for low frequencies, which I imagine Gene would agree with. I think it would be interesting to use Gene's test gear to test my idea, but I haven't got $10's of thousands of laying about for test gear.

So if anyone has done any actual testing, or has a solid science based explanation why it will or won't work, I'd like to hear it.
You think too much! It will all act as one conductor of the total same gauge. The capacitances will sum, the resistances, and inductances of each cable will sum as their reciprocals.
 
S

Speedskater

Audioholic Chief
Smaller gauge wire will work better at higher frequencies due to skin effect.
Wrong
Heavier gauge wire works better at lower frequencies due to power requirements and the these signals will use the entire diameter of the cable.
Wrong
Lots of individual insulated wires increase the capacitance.
Maybe, but with modern amplifiers, capacitance doesn't matter.
 
G

Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
I'm thinking umm a nice house plant in between one or both of your L/R mains will Decrease early reflections. :rolleyes:
 
A

aceinc

Audioholic
Wrong

Wrong

Maybe, but with modern amplifiers, capacitance doesn't matter.
Perhaps I should be a little more detailed;

Multiple smaller gauge insulated wires will work better than one larger gauge wire with the same effective cross section at higher frequencies due to skin effect.

While it is interesting you believe what I stated is incorrect, it does nothing to illuminate me or anyone else who thinks as I do by just saying I am wrong.
 
M

Movie2099

Senior Audioholic
Some things I think I know (a little knowledge can be dangerous);

  1. Smaller gauge wire will work better at higher frequencies due to skin effect.
  2. Heavier gauge wire works better at lower frequencies due to power requirements and the these signals will use the entire diameter of the cable.
  3. Lots of individual insulated wires increase the capacitance.
These are some of the things I think I know. I am not an EE.

The half baked idea part;

Would it make sense to combine two/four large gauge wires with a number of smaller gauge wires to form a single speaker cable?

For example a four conductor 14 gauge with a 28 gauge CAT 6. The cable would be terminated with 2 of the 4 conductor wires and 4 of the 8 conductor wires on each "plug."

Not being an EE I have no clue as to whether the signals would go where I want them to go, or if they would appear to the signal like just one conductor. I just finished watching Gene's video
as well as Paul McGowan's video
.

In Gene's video he says the sound differences are imperceptible but marginally measurable. Paul said bigger is better for low frequencies, which I imagine Gene would agree with. I think it would be interesting to use Gene's test gear to test my idea, but I haven't got $10's of thousands of laying about for test gear.

So if anyone has done any actual testing, or has a solid science based explanation why it will or won't work, I'd like to hear it.
Stop overthinking this and go purchase all AudioQuest cables. No more thinking will happen once you have everything AudioQuest. All of your HDMI's, RCA's, Balanced, and speaker cable. Who cares what the cost is. If it gives you piece of mind knowing you have the best most top rated cables on the market. It will be totally worth it!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
Some things I think I know (a little knowledge can be dangerous);

  1. Smaller gauge wire will work better at higher frequencies due to skin effect.
  2. Heavier gauge wire works better at lower frequencies due to power requirements and the these signals will use the entire diameter of the cable.
  3. Lots of individual insulated wires increase the capacitance.
These are some of the things I think I know. I am not an EE.

The half baked idea part;

Would it make sense to combine two/four large gauge wires with a number of smaller gauge wires to form a single speaker cable?

For example a four conductor 14 gauge with a 28 gauge CAT 6. The cable would be terminated with 2 of the 4 conductor wires and 4 of the 8 conductor wires on each "plug."

Not being an EE I have no clue as to whether the signals would go where I want them to go, or if they would appear to the signal like just one conductor. I just finished watching Gene's video
as well as Paul McGowan's video
.

In Gene's video he says the sound differences are imperceptible but marginally measurable. Paul said bigger is better for low frequencies, which I imagine Gene would agree with. I think it would be interesting to use Gene's test gear to test my idea, but I haven't got $10's of thousands of laying about for test gear.

So if anyone has done any actual testing, or has a solid science based explanation why it will or won't work, I'd like to hear it.
Gene and Paul from BS Audio in the same post about cables... hoo boy...

I like this article where gene calls Paul out on his BS better.


Love Paul's tap dance reply, answering questions without actually answering questions...
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Some things I think I know (a little knowledge can be dangerous);
  1. Smaller gauge wire will work better at higher frequencies due to skin effect.
  2. Heavier gauge wire works better at lower frequencies due to power requirements and the these signals will use the entire diameter of the cable.
  3. Lots of individual insulated wires increase the capacitance.
Not being an EE I have no clue as to whether the signals would go where I want them to go, or if they would appear to the signal like just one conductor.

So if anyone has done any actual testing, or has a solid science based explanation why it will or won't work, I'd like to hear it.
You admitted that, "Not being an EE I have no clue". You got that part right, but all your thoughts on skin effect are wrong.

Skin effect, is a classic example of how audio salesmen take something that does actually exist, but exaggerate it's importance. It is not a significant problem at audio frequencies. Skin effect only begins to be a problem at frequencies much higher than anything in audio. At 20 kHz, skin depth is just barely beginning to be shallow, but not enough to be a problem. At 1 MHz, in the range of TV broadcast carrier wave frequencies, skin effect is significant. That's why TV antennae or cable TV signals can work with coaxial cables where the inner core wire is copper coated steel. Because of skin effect, it conducts signals in MHz range just as well as solid copper, but it can take high tension mountings without breaking.

The skin depth of copper falls according to the square root of frequency:
1620832516018.png

 
Last edited:
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Samurai
You admitted that, "Not being an EE I have no clue". You got that part right. Skin effect, is a classic example of how audio salesmen take something that does actually exist, but is not a significant problem in audio playback. Skin effect only begins to be a problem at frequencies much higher than anything in audio. In copper, The skin depth of copper falls according to the square root of frequency. At 20 kHz, skin depth is just barely beginning to be shallow, but not enough to be a problem. At 1 MHz, in the range of TV broadcast carrier wave frequencies, skin effect is significant. That's why TV antennae or cable TV signals can work with coaxial cables where the inner core wire is copper coated steel. Because of skin effect, it conducts signals in MHz range just as well as solid copper, but it can take high tension mountings without breaking.

View attachment 47486

He passed the Dunning-Kruger test :)
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
Perhaps I should be a little more detailed;

Multiple smaller gauge insulated wires will work better than one larger gauge wire with the same effective cross section at higher frequencies due to skin effect.

While it is interesting you believe what I stated is incorrect, it does nothing to illuminate me or anyone else who thinks as I do by just saying I am wrong.
I’ve seen a number of thing related to debunking skin effect and it’s audibility. Never once has it been shown to be a factor at all. It’s a spec that doesn’t matter in this context. I have no links as this has been beaten to death and nothing I’m concerned with.

I have a question though.
Theoretically speaking. How would changing the speaker cable going into the speaker change its behavior when the wires, pcb, caps and associated XO components inside remain the same?
 
A

aceinc

Audioholic
BTW, for all the people who throw rocks, every speaker cable in all of my systems are some form of 12 gauge zip cable with banana plugs on the ends. The purpose of this discussion is to become more knowledgeable, and not to take the statements by Gene, Paul, Danny (Ritchie) or anyone else as the gospel. I realize to some this is a religious argument, in which I consider myself an agnostic, and am willing to listen to all sides trying to understand what is the reality.

Gene's video shows there are differences, which he indicates are not audible, but there are differences. It would appear that skin effect starting at 10khz would have some impact on wires larger than ~24 gauge. I am Not suggesting whether this is audible or not, but I won't hide from the facts.
 
Last edited:
A

aceinc

Audioholic
I actually have a reason for trying to educate myself on speaker cables. I have a 25'x15' room with my equipment on one of the short walls. I have speaker wires run behind the baseboard parallel to each other to 4 jacks on the other end of the room. Considering these 12 awg wires run parallel for 30'-40' and they are unshielded and untwisted, I suspect there may be crosstalk between them.

I may have an opportunity during a future remodel to replace these cables, and I am trying to decide whether there is a better solution.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I actually have a reason for trying to educate myself on speaker cables. I have a 25'x15' room with my equipment on one of the short walls. I have speaker wires run behind the baseboard parallel to each other to 4 jacks on the other end of the room. Considering these 12 awg wires run parallel for 30'-40' and they are unshielded and untwisted, I suspect there may be crosstalk between them.

I may have an opportunity during a future remodel to replace these cables, and I am trying to decide whether there is a better solution.
If you're concerned about improving sound quality in general, educate yourself on what features make an audible difference in loud speakers. Speakers are where the 'rubber hits the road'. All your efforts at learning more about speaker cables is wasting your time.
 
Teetertotter?

Teetertotter?

Audioholic
Is 2 conductor twisted pair, 99% pure copper, shielded and jacketed,........better than non twisted pair speaker wire w 99% pure copper wire and non shielded??
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Ninja
BTW, for all the people who throw rocks, every speaker cable in all of my systems are some form of 12 gauge zip cable with banana plugs on the ends. The purpose of this discussion is to become more knowledgeable, and not to take the statements by Gene, Paul, Danny (Ritchie) or anyone else as the gospel. I realize to some this is a religious argument, in which I consider myself an agnostic, and am willing to listen to all sides trying to understand what is the reality.

Gene's video shows there are differences, which he indicates are not audible, but there are differences. It would appear that skin effect starting at 10khz would have some impact on wires larger than ~24 gauge. I am Not suggesting whether this is audible or not, but I won't hide from the facts.
Skin effect is a non-issue in speaker wire in the audible frequency range:

 
S

Speedskater

Audioholic Chief
Multiple smaller gauge insulated wires will work better than one larger gauge wire with the same effective cross section at higher frequencies due to skin effect.
Well in a word no.
While skin effect can be calculated, in reasonable speaker cables it's hard to measure. Why, because at high frequencies the cables end-to-end resistance and inductance are greater than the skin effect value. Any effort to reduce the skin-effect will increase the inductance and/or the resistance.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
BTW, for all the people who throw rocks, every speaker cable in all of my systems are some form of 12 gauge zip cable with banana plugs on the ends. The purpose of this discussion is to become more knowledgeable, and not to take the statements by Gene, Paul, Danny (Ritchie) or anyone else as the gospel. I realize to some this is a religious argument, in which I consider myself an agnostic, and am willing to listen to all sides trying to understand what is the reality.

Gene's video shows there are differences, which he indicates are not audible, but there are differences. It would appear that skin effect starting at 10khz would have some impact on wires larger than ~24 gauge. I am Not suggesting whether this is audible or not, but I won't hide from the facts.
*Pogre throws another rock

:p
 

Latest posts


newsletter
  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top