Speaker Cable Faceoff 2: Introduction & Measurements

[gene]

There's no way I could go back to stranded. Solid core gives me the detail and definition I need. I use nothing but 10 ga solid core romex. 12 ga would probably be sufficient but I'm stuck on 10 ga.

Weird b/c solid core 10awg will suffer more skin effect than stranded even if the stranded isn't litz configuration. Not to mention solid core at that gauge is very hard to work with. Well I guess if it makes you happy, who are we to say otherwise

 

[normc]

I'd like to make a few points regarding both the report and the testing methodology which to my mind have been overlooked.

1. The report several times uses words such as 'should', 'seems to', 'may have been', etc. which in my, and I believe the view of most scientific journals, are inappropriate in a report of this nature, unless properly qualified with the reason that the certainty has not been defined.

2. I recall that phase shift begins @ 1/10th of the -3db point, so that for zero phase shift @ 20kHz, a bandwidth of at least 200kHz is required. And yet I don't recall seeing any bandwidth testing in the report. Along with the other measurements this would seem to be a basic characteristic that needs to be measured.

3. No listening tests? While I accept that many here seem to be of the opinion that the measured differences 'are probably not audible', surely we can't have a credible test on speaker cables that do not include any kind of listening test to at least validate the measurements. What if one of the cables that measures well, doesn't stand up to a listening test, or heaven forbid, one that doesn't measure well sounds better than it should.

4. I for one am not convinced by any means that DBT necessarily exposes any or all the differences that may be present. Some of the differences may be not be evident or obvious in the short time frame or on the particular program material used for a DBT. What about listening fatigue? Or do we deny any such thing exists? Most DBTs are done using equipment with which the audience is not familiar, leading to the differences going unnoticed by all but those with very well developed listening skills.

This seems to be a pretty emotive topic, and while I have no interest in one speaker cable over any other, I have certainly heard some not too subtle differences between cables in recent times. And not in favor of the more expensive ones I might add. It would seem to me that any credible test should consider these points to reduce errors and omissions.

 

[highfigh]

I for one am not convinced by any means that DBT necessarily exposes any or all the differences that may be present. Some of the differences may be not be evident or obvious in the short time frame or on the particular program material used for a DBT. What about listening fatigue? Or do we deny any such thing exists? Most DBTs are done using equipment with which the audience is not familiar, leading to the differences going unnoticed by all but those with very well developed listening skills.

This seems to be a pretty emotive topic, and while I have no interest in one speaker cable over any other, I have certainly heard some not too subtle differences between cables in recent times. And not in favor of the more expensive ones I might add. It would seem to me that any credible test should consider these points to reduce errors and omissions.

Dual Blond Tests aren't supposed to reveal anything that a non-blind test doesn't, it's for removing bias from the test. If someone knows that they're comparing and they prefer/dislike one or more of the items being tested, their results will be flawed. If they don't know what they're testing, they can't have any pre-existing opinions.

It's a hot topic and for several good reasons. One is that some people like to "impress" others with how much they spent on what they have (I used quotes because I find people annoying when they brag about how much they spend, not impressive). When someone can say the speaker wire in their system cost more than their friends' whole systems, they feel superior. Conversely, if they spent that much, it damn well better make a difference and when they read that it doesn't, they can become angry that they wasted so much money, they feel mislead or lied to, vulnerable and sometimes need a hug. Nobody wants to feel like a rube but I imagine that's what some go through. The rest just insist that those of us who prefer to remain a little more objective are stupid, clueless, missing out on a great experience or that our systems are inferior and we won't hear the difference anyway.

 

[tsteves]

Dual Blond Tests

I just can't go there, too easy, obviously meant Double Blind Tests. Plus in todays economy I just can't afford such extravagance. (Ok, sorry, but how could I resist?)

Any kind of test like this that would satisfy absolutely everyone with the testing methodology? Well, you are talking "real" money just for the test setup.

My nit to pick with these tests is why use listeners at all? You usually have a 30 second break at best between comparisons.This is much too long for our brain. Without a setup that allows instant switching, even if there were, in fact, slight audible differences, all you would get would be "data noise" level differences.
Why not just use a couple of different extremes of loudspeaker types, several characteristically different cables and put a few different square waves through them at a few frequencies and "measure" the results with a high quality microphone dumped into a high quality DAW?

OK, never mind, that sounds way too expensive as well....

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
What if one of the cables that measures well, doesn't stand up to a listening test, or heaven forbid, one that doesn't measure well sounds better than it should.
.

Just more urban audio legend about that kind of event in any audio component, not backed up by credible empirical evidence. Absolute nonsense.

 

[mtrycrafts]

....Why not just use a couple of different extremes of loudspeaker types, several characteristically different cables and put a few different square waves through them at a few frequencies and "measure" the results with a high quality microphone dumped into a high quality DAW?

OK, never mind, that sounds way too expensive as well....

And what would that reveal about audibility?

 

[Brett A]

Just more urban audio legend (...) Absolute nonsense.

I just have to ask you guys that believe that measurements are the end-all to the discussion:
Have you personally A/B's cables in your own system? Did you hear a difference? And if you did, what followed? Did your mind get busy convincing its self that you didn't hear a difference? I'd appreciate hearing about your experience.

 

[normc]

For Brett,

If you go back to my original post you'll probably see that I'm not one of those that believes ONLY in measurements, but don't get me wrong. As a very brief background, I am both an ex musician, and an electronics engineer. Many years ago I designed and built a solid state RIAA pre amp that measured and was considered better than the Audio Research models of the day. I only mention this to let you know I have feet in both camps.

Measurements are certainly useful and absolutely necessary. However, I don't think we should take them as the absolute arbiter as to what's good and what isn't. The fact is that gear that measures the best, doesn't always sound the best. The reasons may well be subjective but music itself is subjective so we can't ignore what we hear, in my opinion.

Some would say that cables all sound the same. I say they are tone deaf. If all components sound the same, why does equipment with high quality components sound so much better than kit built RS gear with cheap components. No denying that some of that stuff is really good value, but it doesn't compete with the high end gear, it's not meant to.

OTOH, we do need to be wary of the unscrupulous marketeers who try to convince us that you have to pay a fortune for good sound. My preamp cost me $400 to build against the AR which sold for $15k. My latest experience with cables is that $3/m Belden sounds far better than $30/m Audioquest. Although the measurements would tell us the difference is inaudible.

Hope you find that useful. Caveat emptor.

 

[tsteves]

mtrycrafts

And what would that reveal about audibility?

I believe you would see in this test very small effects on the square waves in some circumstances due to the cable, which would appear to be insignificant when compared to the mangling done to the square wave by the speaker itself. It's a dangerous thing to do to a speaker, even at relatively low levels, so a "faked" speaker load would be safer. Surely some of the "faithful" might change the way they look at the equation? OK, probably not. Even amplifiers with amazingly similar test results in all of the "important" factors, are found to sound very different in reviews in high end magazines. I am quite skeptical that in a "perfectly" designed DBT with "perfect" immediate switching between amps that people could hear a difference. Same goes with the vast majority of speaker cables. Science has taken us to the moon and back. We have cell phones, Satellite TV, and GPS's that need to take into account time differences using relativity theory, and yet we can't properly understand a speaker cable using metrics?
The human ear is a wonderful instrument, but it's not that good!

 

[tsteves]

Brett A

The reasons may well be subjective but music itself is subjective so we can't ignore what we hear, in my opinion.

I'm sorry, but I do not understand this logic. "Music is subjective"? Yes, sure, but is signal reproduction subjective? It's accurate to greater or lesser degrees. Speaker choices are subjective due to various trade offs. There are obvious differences in the quality of components and certainly even some types of cables. I don't think most speaker cables effects on signal quality are comparatively much of a trade off. I don't believe it is much of a subjective choice at all.
Most 1" dome tweeters don't have great dispersion patterns over 10KHz. Most speaker cables start rolling off near 20KHz. IS there some type of magic signal that the speaker cables are losing? Not likely if we have not figured out how to measure it yet with all we know. It annoys me that "subjective" proponents refuse to posit any theories. Without a testable hypothesis we are at square one, forever...

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... I am quite skeptical that in a "perfectly" designed DBT with "perfect" immediate switching between amps that people could hear a difference. Same goes with the vast majority of speaker cables. ...

You should be so skeptical

David Rich and Peter Aczel, 'Topological Analysis of Consumer Audio Electronics: Another Approach to Show that Modern Audio Electronics are Acoustically Transparent,' 99 AES Convention, 1995, Print #4053.

Tom Nousaine, ' The Great Debate: Is Anyone Winning?' Proceedings of the AES, 8th International Conference, 1990.

Masters, Ian G. 'Audiolab Test: Six Power Amplifiers,' Audio Scene Canada, May 1977, pg 44-50.

Masters, Ian G. ' Audiolab Test: Amplifiers and Speaker Cables,' Audio Scene Canada, Jun 1981, pg 24-27.

Masters, Ian G. 'Do All Amplifiers Sound the Same?' Stereo Review, Jan 1987, pg 78-84

Carlstrom, D., Kruger, A., & Greenhill, L. ' Some Amplifiers Do Sound Different,' The Audio Amateur, 3/1982, pg 30, 31.


Smith, Thomas H., Peterson, Michael R., and Jackson, Peter O., "Are those Ears Really Golden?(Or only Iron Pyrites," The Audio Amateur, 1/80, pg 34, 36, 38, &32.


They all supports your skepticism
No need to post the cable stuff

 

[mtrycrafts]

.., and an electronics engineer. ...r.

So is Jon Risch at AA. You should read all the voodoo that he posts and spews as facts. So much for some degrees.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I just have to ask you guys that believe that measurements are the end-all to the discussion:
Have you personally A/B's cables in your own system? Did you hear a difference? And if you did, what followed? Did your mind get busy convincing its self that you didn't hear a difference? I'd appreciate hearing about your experience.

A useless endeavour unless one does it under DBT protocols. And, one doesn't need to reinvent the wheel as there has been enough evidence to support the no audible differences, period, end of story.
But, if you have credible, repeatable evidence that You have 'golden ears' even Randi has offered $1 mil for such feat.

As to minds, it is the believers whose minds work overtime.

 

[Brett A]

For Brett,

If you go back to my original post you'll probably see that I'm not one of those that believes ONLY in measurements, but don't get me wrong. As a very brief background, I am both an ex musician, and an electronics engineer. Many years ago I designed and built a solid state RIAA pre amp that measured and was considered better than the Audio Research models of the day. I only mention this to let you know I have feet in both camps.

Measurements are certainly useful and absolutely necessary. However, I don't think we should take them as the absolute arbiter as to what's good and what isn't. The fact is that gear that measures the best, doesn't always sound the best. The reasons may well be subjective but music itself is subjective so we can't ignore what we hear, in my opinion.

Some would say that cables all sound the same. I say they are tone deaf. If all components sound the same, why does equipment with high quality components sound so much better than kit built RS gear with cheap components. No denying that some of that stuff is really good value, but it doesn't compete with the high end gear, it's not meant to.

OTOH, we do need to be wary of the unscrupulous marketeers who try to convince us that you have to pay a fortune for good sound. My preamp cost me $400 to build against the AR which sold for $15k. My latest experience with cables is that $3/m Belden sounds far better than $30/m Audioquest. Although the measurements would tell us the difference is inaudible.

Hope you find that useful. Caveat emptor.

Thanks. This is a well written post. We have similar views and experiences. I continue to try and understand the camp that seems to rely absolutely on measurements when experience proves that there is more to it, as you point out.
Thanks again.

 

[Brett A]

A useless endeavour unless one does it under DBT protocols.

Well, you've blown your credibility with that one statement.

As to minds, it is the believers whose minds work overtime.

There is no one here who is not falling toward the gravity of their beliefs---Objectivists included

 

[zhimbo]

Well, you've blown your credibility with that one statement.

All the DBT means is that you don't know what cables you're listening to, and precautions are taken to avoid inadvertantly giving you that knowledge. You may have quibbles with a *particular* DBT procedure, but DBT itself means nothing more than making sure the identity of the cables is unknown.

In what possible way does knowing what cables you're listening to increase the reliability of what you hear?

 

[Matt34]

I find it amusing that the one thing that very likely influnces sound reproduction the least is the most hotly contested topic on almost every forum.

Almost as amusing as the ones that have as much money wrapped up in cables than what they paid for their speakers....almost.

 

[tsteves]

mtrycrafts
Yeah, I know! I'm thinking maybe a "visual approach" may convince others, since other approaches have failed. I wish the AES articles and others were easier to get. AES articles cost money. Reprints of magazine articles - are they available in Libraries?
Two good ones from AES I have are Fred E. Davis - The effects of Cable, Loudspeaker, and Amplifier Interactions, and R.A. Greiner - Amplifier-Loudspeaker Interfacing.
Chu Gai on AVS really helped me get my head together on a lot of this years ago..
Besides that, I did my own non-blind tests years ago. Hours and hours. At first I was sure I heard differences, subtle ones but "real". But I kept at it, and tried really hard to be totally objective, and once I started forgetting which cable I was listening to it became clear that I could not reliably tell any reasonably built cable from another.
Of course I am completely open to any new evidence, but at this point I think actual theories or evidence is needed to support even bothering to worry about it.
To be honest I still use some "overkill" speaker cables, mostly those I've made. Hey, they have nice banana connectors on them and are easy to use. They are properly crimped or soldered and should last "forever". Much easier than stripped wire, and look "cooler". Not saying I recommend them, though.

Crazy DIY ultra quality long length suggestion: get some THHN 14awg or 16awg wire in two colors from HD, etc. Put one end in vise. Put other end in drill. Twist them together. Solder or crimp on connectors. done. What you get is a skinny, ageless very low inductance cable for minimal $. It's skinny to fit conduits-etc, color coded, very easy to "form" if necessary, extremely tough, twist helps reduce hum and noise when run near AC, and thin insulation minimizes inductance eliminating any possible (albeit slight) HF loss in long runs. Your dog might thank you or perhaps be annoyed at sounds you can't hear. *For in-wall use you should use in-wall rated cable, of course.

 

[mtrycrafts]

mtrycrafts
Yeah, I know! I'm thinking maybe a "visual approach" may convince others, since other approaches have failed.

But, they are taking the visual approach and that is what screws them over
The eyes deceives them

I wish the AES articles and others were easier to get. AES articles cost money. Reprints of magazine articles - are they available in Libraries?

Well, continuing education is not cheap. Got to pay the piper
Yes, you can do an inter library request for articles and most of the time they send you the copy, not the full mag. You do need the page numbers though so they know what to copy.
Or, you can ask Chu to see if he has them He should have a lot, I made sure of that.

Chu Gai on AVS really helped me get my head together on a lot of this years ago..

Great guy.

But I kept at it, and tried really hard to be totally objective,

Next to impossible.

Of course I am completely open to any new evidence, but at this point I think actual theories or evidence is needed to support even bothering to worry about it.

Absolutely.

To be honest I still use some "overkill" speaker cables, mostly those I've made. Hey, they have nice banana connectors on them and are easy to use. They are properly crimped or soldered and should last "forever".

That falls into the 'preference' category as not much to test.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Well, you've blown your credibility with that one statement.

There is no one here who is not falling toward the gravity of their beliefs---Objectivists included

Oh, really? I doubt it. Objectivists just follow the evidence, the credible ones, not the imagined ones.