Speaker Cable Faceoff 2: Introduction & Measurements

FLZapped

FLZapped

Audioholic
Stringreen said:
There are so many posts on the internet debunking the differences in cables. All you scientific minded people are busy proving with tests that there are no differences.
Actually, they've known all along that like cables don't have audible differences. It's only a bunch of marketing types writing techno-hype that say there is. the science types are only reiterating what has been so since the first wire was drawn.

You "scientists" surely can't get the value of breaking in a cable.
Which value is that?

I wish all of you guys would sit down and LISTEN. I hear clear differences in all cables.
By what methodology? You picking them up, holding them to your ear and listening for the sound of the rushing sea???

if you can't hear the difference you should see physician.
If you can hear a diference between like cables, you need to see a "shrink."
(two can play that silly game....)

You can clearly hear the differences in the next room.
So can I, the acoustics change.....

Man, what fun.

-Bruce
 
E

Estephens13

Enthusiast
cat5

Hey, I just replaced my cheap Monster 16g wire with cat5 and on my Polk Rti12's I could hear a signifigant diffrence in sound,and I am VERY happy with the results.
 
Last edited:
S

sastusbulbas

Audiophyte
Hi Fi News did a cable measurement and its affect on sound quality back in the 1980's, and it clearly showed measurement affected performance.

So maybe the flaw is with whoever is chosing the cable, and you should try using different types, for instance DNM is completely different to Nordost Valhalla, and if this gives you the same lab measurements and sounds identical I would sudgest updating your test equipment, hifi system or getting your ears waxed :p
 
masak_aer

masak_aer

Senior Audioholic
Stringreen said:
I hear clear differences in all cables. Listen to top of the line Cardas and Audioquest cables, and if you can't hear the difference you should see physician.
I agree with this comment. I used my chicken wire before i use blue jeans cable..and damn...what a difference...Now everything sounds so clear....;)
 
J

jcrobso

Audioholic Intern
Well I think this is a hoot.

I'm a FM radio station Engineer. To see the differences they had to test using the very low RF band. Why?? Because in the audio band the differences are just so incredibly small that no one could ever hear the difference.
I just a quick glance at some of the charts, but it was very easy to see that many of the BIG$$$$ cables performed lower that plain old lamp cord. John
 

pelewis

Audiophyte
What about age of cables?

I have some 12 year old speaker cables (provided by speaker seller at about $150/pr, brand unknown [but the look impressive!]) and some uh, 25 year old monster cable interconnects.

Could it be time to replace? And is their a similar review of interconnects as you have done so nicely for speaker cables?
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
pelewis said:
I have some 12 year old speaker cables (provided by speaker seller at about $150/pr, brand unknown [but the look impressive!]) and some uh, 25 year old monster cable interconnects.

Could it be time to replace? And is their a similar review of interconnects as you have done so nicely for speaker cables?

Check the condition of the insulation. Does it crack when you bend it? If not, you are fine. How old is your house/apartment? If older than 12 yrs, or 25, you think the wiring will be replaced anytime soon? :D
Not to worry.
 
H

hooovie

Audiophyte
Wire sheiding

HI Iam looking for some help in how best to insulate or shield 110 volt house wiring from the speakers
In installing speakers in the walls, there are electrical wires directly behind where two of the speakers are going to be.does anyone know of a product to wrap or place in between the wires and the speakers instead of having to reroute the wires?
Thank You
Don
 

ronnie 1.8

Audioholic
I recently made my first purchase from Blue Jeans Cable (as a direct result of Audioholics - thank you), and am very very pleased. Consider me 'enlightened' on the subject. I honestly simply didn't know of the huge markup in interconnects. I purchased 4 HDMI cables, and 1 optical digital audio cable, and cannot believe how inexpensive they are, and how well-made they appear to be. My PQ seems as excellent as ever. Another thing I really appreciate with BJC is they use minimal packaging. Anyone familiar with Geneseis' "The Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging" (now available in multi ch 5.1, by the way)? The cables arrived in a simple thin plastic bag with a bit of tape, and an adhesive label identifying the cable length. Very very pleased.

I think I paid $17.50 for the 2m HDMI cable, while I paid $119 for the same length Monster cable about 5 months ago!!!! Aaaaaggghhhh!!! I really feel like I threw my $$ away. As Chief Inspector Clouseau once said (after destroying the "priceless Steinway"), "Not anymore". :D
 
H

Hydra

Audiophyte
Umm, how long should I let my fresh unrolled lamp cord breath before sticking the juice to it? I was thinking 4 or 5 hours of Dave Matthews then 2 hours of Black Sabbath to complete the break in:eek:

What?
 
H

Hydra

Audiophyte
HI Iam looking for some help in how best to insulate or shield 110 volt house wiring from the speakers
In installing speakers in the walls, there are electrical wires directly behind where two of the speakers are going to be.does anyone know of a product to wrap or place in between the wires and the speakers instead of having to reroute the wires?
Thank You
Don
Don, your speaker circuits are low impedance circuits so should not pick up any 60Hz noise. My rear speakers are a 50 foot run next to Romex, not a problem. I'm using white 14 gauge lamp cord.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
I'll tell you all a true story. Several years ago I was in the business of selling vacuum tubes on the internet. I decided one day to have a private label brand of cables. I went to nice company called Have, Inc. and asked them to make me some interconnects, speaker cables and even digital cables. I specified that they use very high end gold connectors, attractive blue sheathing on the cables and nice white shrink wrap around the connectors with our company logo on them. I told them to use whatever wire they had available that was very thick and beefy looking but had a low measurable impedance. In other words, I didn't want cables that were tone controls. I just wanted cables.

The resulting cables were very attractive. I took a bunch of them down to the local high end audio store and asked the owner to pass a few around and let me know what people thought.

To make a long story short, the production run sold out completely in the local market before I could get them listed on the web site = all from word of mouth and the audio dealer's salesmanship. I got incredible reviews from the local audiophiles, everyone of whom were impressed with the cables' performance. They were compared to cables costing 4 figures per pair by several audiophiles.

The interconnects cost me about $12 each (most of which was in connectors) and we (the audio dealer and me) sold them locally for $99 each. I shut down the vacuum tube web site when I moved on to other products and never had another production run done. I still use them in my own audio systems. I still chuckle when I think about the whole thing.
 
SMU1976

SMU1976

Enthusiast
Disagree with the President and Roger Russel of McIntosh?

A year ago when we published our original Speaker Cable Faceoff 1 article, we had no idea that it would lead to almost consistent questioning of when we would post a follow-up with more cables and companies represented. Well, after months of careful measurement, analysis and observation, we unveil our second Speaker Cable Faceoff article. Using a Wayne Kerr 3260B Magnetics Analyzer we meticulously measured cables from several manufacturers and summarized our findings. If you thought our articles dispelling myths of dielectric absorption, cable distortion, cable resonance, and skin effect (in audible frequencies) were good - take a look at the measureable differences between cables from some well-known and some newcomer companies.

Read Speaker Cable Faceoff 2...
So you disagree with Gordon Gow (former President of McIntosh) and Roger Russel (former Engineer with McIntosh), both with numerous degree's at the graduate level and 30 year careers with the United States, if not the worlds premier Audio company? Why not add some plain line cord in your study?


rom: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#gordongow

"Gordon Gow's Speaker Wire Listening Test

I have read several magazine articles and papers expressing the findings and opinions about the various kinds of speaker wire. Some engineers have applied their expertise to make measurements to prove conclusively that there ARE differences between wires. A few authors have devoted their entire paper to the measurements and never mention whether they have actually made any listening tests or if they could hear any difference. Despite all the measurements and opinions, the final test is whether you can hear any difference or not. Obviously, this must be done under controlled conditions where you don't know which wire is connected and there is no delay in switching.

In the early 1980's, special speaker wires were beginning to appear on the market. Some of the claims were totally unbelievable and had prices to match. Realizing that wire resistance was the critical factor in speaker wire, Gordon Gow, President of McIntosh Laboratory, used a speaker cable demonstration to show there was no listening difference between these wires and plain line cord. He delivered his presentation about the truth in speaker wire using a reel of Monster cable to stand on. Fifty-foot lengths of wire were used in the comparison. The setup consisted of a master control relay box and two slave relay boxes. A three-position switch was used to select one of three different speaker wires of equal length. One was line cord. The other two wires were from popular manufacturers. 8-ohm speakers were selected to be used in the test. The two other brand name wires were heavier than the line cord.

The boxes now show some signs of wear. This is from being handled and traveling around in a large fiberglass case along with all of the speaker wires and connecting cables.

A slave box was positioned at each speaker. Power to drive the relays in each slave box was provided with separate cables. The speaker wires were switched at both the power amplifier and the speaker so that only one kind of wire was connected at a time. Short pieces of heavy wire were run from the speakers and amplifier to the relay boxes. No other devices were used in the speaker line. The relay contact resistance was measured to be less than 0.1 ohms. No consistent listening differences were heard by customers or dealers.

The test proved his point. When I took the test, I was unable to hear any differences using several different 8-ohm speaker systems. BUT, when I deliberately played one particular 4-ohm speaker and I switched to the line cord position, I could hear differences. I knew this system dipped down to 2.6 ohms in one frequency range, and 3 ohms in another. It verified that differences can be heard if the wire is too light for a lower impedance system. A system this low in impedance requires heavier wire. After replacing the line cord with a heavier line cord of equal length, differences could no longer be heard.

THE KIND OF WIRE MADE NO DIFFERENCE

It can be solid, stranded, copper, oxygen free copper, silver, etc.--or even "magic" wire--as long as the resistance is kept to be less than 5% of the speaker impedance. There is no listening difference as long as the wire is of adequate size.

Of course, we are not personally able to establish the truth of everything for ourselves and it's not easy to set up a similar wire listening test. Very few people are able to make speaker impedance measurements or wire resistance measurements down to 0.1 ohms. Like many other things in life, we rely on indirect sources of information, such as sales literature, reviews and opinions. This is called Authority Belief, which is part of our belief system. An interesting article about the belief system is described in ETC: A Review Of General Semantics Sept. 1964 titled Images Of the Consumer's Mind by Milton Rokeach.

Gordon Gow's cable demonstration provided a personal experience for customers that could replace the Authority Beliefs they had relied on earlier. The demonstration was controlled. It was an instant comparison and the listeners did not know the wire identification. Gordon held many such demonstrations in dealer showrooms and at shows.

The Truth about Speaker Wire

Despite the effectiveness of Gordon's cable demonstration and the truth about speaker wire, people visiting the McIntosh room at the shows, who had not experienced the cable demonstration, were disturbed that we were using ordinary heavy zip cord instead of one of the popular brands of speaker wire. Instead of listening to the McIntosh speakers and electronics, they recalled "bad" things they had been told about "common" speaker wire and this promoted questions about the "inferior" wire being used. When we changed the wire to a popular brand of wire, customers were happy with the setup, and directed their attention to the McIntosh equipment.

The demand for high quality speaker wire was increasing and appeared to be a new marketing area for several companies. McIntosh did not make or sell speaker wire. The solution seemed very obvious--rather than spend time and effort to create negative sales for McIntosh dealers who were beginning to sell speaker wire, it seemed best to encourage the speaker owner/customer to consult with the dealer about what speaker wire to use. Consequently, I no longer recommended the kind of wire or wire sizes in the speaker manuals.

By 1988, McIntosh no longer supplied audio interconnects with the electronics. Again, many kinds of special audio cables were available to the customer/owner. The dealer could also be consulted about what cables to use.

I credit the success of the speaker wire industry to their expert sales and marketing ability. However, it is my experience that ordinary copper wire, as long as it's heavy enough, is just as good as name brands.

Looking at this from a different perspective, there will always be those who will want expensive wire, not because there is an audible difference, but because they may value pride of ownership and prestige in a similar way to that of owning a Tiffany lamp or a Rolex watch."
__________________________________________________ ____________
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Peter Walker had it right

The late Peter Walker, founder of Quad, stated that, "wire is wire", and annoyed the burgeoning lunatic fringe. Of course he was right then and he is right now. The only factor that matters is resistance. This is especially important now as there has been a downward trend in speaker impedance. The lower the speaker impedance the more power loss there will be in the in the cable. Obviously if you have speakers with an average impedance of 4 ohms in the audio band, and your total speaker cable resistance is four ohms, then you will loose half your power amp output in the speaker cables.

Theoretically the high resistance can affect the total damping, however the effect of the inductors in the low pass section of the crossover negates this effect for most speakers. However a high resistance can change the Qts of some speakers and upset bass alignment. Basically the rule is the lower the resistance per meter of the cable the better.

The capacitance and inductance values measured here, are going to have no audible effect.

If you want to save money, buy good gauge cables, and lean to use the soldering iron amd make up your own cables. Measuring the resistance is easy and straightforward and can be done with a simple meter.

That is ALL there is to say about speaker cables. Anyone who tries to concince anyone otherwise has a very heavy burden of proof.
 
Z

ZoFo

Audioholic
You guys have it all wrong!

The Magic is not in the cables my friends, but it the extra "stuff". Do you have a Jar of Brilliant Pebbles sitting on top of your pre-amp? What about your amp? Is your cable just sitting on the floor or is it resting on audiophile grade maple wood blocks? Notice I said "audiophile grade" maple wood - pine and walnut simply will not do!

After you add these vital components I then suggest you do the "Teleportation Tweak" that this same website offers; after paying a substantial amount (Paypal) you are given a phone number to call and they will play a "magic tone" over the phone. And for once you guys overseas are not left out; why just recently they were able to conduct a successful Teleportation Tweak 10,000 miles away! Once you make the call you then have 30 seconds to walk around your room with your phone pointing it at the various components in your rack, making sure not to skip the jars of Brilliant Pebbles and Maple Cable Risers your just added as these items are not immune to the Powers of the Teleportation Tweak. The best part is that this mystical Teleportation Tweak is only $60 for 30 seconds; only $2 a second for what audiophiles are calling "The Worlds Best Tweak"!

Then and only then will you have a truly danceable set of speaker cables that cause that incontrolable toe-tapping and wonderful chocolaty mid-range that we all seek but rarely find.

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina60.htm
 

jimmy3993

Audiophyte
Ok but...

I have not had enough experience to have a personal opinion about cables. But I do have a bit of a problem with the McIntosh test referenced in the story in support of the notion that heavy guage is all that matters (full disclosure, I love mac sound and have a MA6900 right now...)
I have made a few recent upgrades that I am happy with but I am not sure that they would have passed the "Gow Test".
One recent add was the Benchmark Dac1 to stand between a sonos zp80 and the MA6900. I left the analog out of the zp80 connected to the MA6900 and I can swap between Sonos/MA6900 and Sonos/Benchmak Dac/MA6900.
I prefer the benchmark in the loop and decided to keep it BUT to me the differences are subtle and in a quick A/B I am not sure if someone unfamiliar to the system would be able to identify them.
Is it possible that he same might be true for cables? If I had a way to do a simple A/B test, I would be tempted to try some fancy ones out.
 

PaleRider

Audiophyte
THE KIND OF WIRE MADE NO DIFFERENCE

It can be solid, stranded, copper, oxygen free copper, silver, etc.--or even "magic" wire--as long as the resistance is kept to be less than 5% of the speaker impedance. There is no listening difference as long as the wire is of adequate size.

Some right but mostly wrong. 5%? Wonder what genious came to that number. The difference between a solid and a stranded conductor is obvious if they`re not too tiny. "Oxygenfree" is just a gimmick, allmost any conductor will do as long as it`s fat enough & solid.
Most hifi-nuts have opinions on this matter but next to none real experience and knowlegde. To keep this short; speakercables like all other cablage must be solid and well-sized, not flatwalsed or in any other way disformed, not twisted or anything else funny.
While tubes on horns does fine with a tiny 12awg sc a powerful solid state amp needs big powerways to breath. You will have no idea about what you`re up to until you`ve heard what a 7awg solidcore does to a 12" woofer, that includes internal wiring, forget passive filters over 1.order if they`re not built w. zero-ohm coils winded on 7awg rectangular thread.
But if, then we can start talking. My thumb-rule is 10 square millimeter massive copper for a 10", 6mm for a 6", that`s for 8ohm drivers:rolleyes:

The low current low imp powerways of a transistor-amp is more sensitive to resistance than you can imagine. After years of research and experimenting on this object I`ve busted qiute a few hifi-myths, you should hear me on speakerbuilding;):D
 
C

cl35m

Banned
There's no way I could go back to stranded. Solid core gives me the detail and definition I need. I use nothing but 10 ga solid core romex. 12 ga would probably be sufficient but I'm stuck on 10 ga.
 
T

tsteves

Junior Audioholic
PaleRider
To keep this short; speakercables like all other cablage must be solid and well-sized, not flatwalsed or in any other way disformed, not twisted or anything else funny.
Maybe you should have kept it long, since this is pretty much indecipherable!
Do you have any reasoning to support all this?
 
D

DaleAV

Full Audioholic
I guess testing wire is kind of like watering grass from the bottom instead of the top. It should grow either way as long as it always gets sun from the top.
Speaker wire should not matter, as long as you make the correct connections each time.
Doing a thorough analysis is likely interesting to some, but if it does not matter in how it makes the speaker sound, what does it prove, other than not all cables 'read' the same?
And if some cables DO sound different, can you give a scientific reason why it does or does not, assuming cables of sufficient gauge and connection integrity?
Maybe you can, but it's doubtful any given reason will apply universally each time to everyone. Very doubtful
 

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