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humsin94

Enthusiast
I am confident about wood's ability to change over time. With metal, it is debatable. However, master flutists and flute makers claim that during manufacture, there are miniscule errors and irregularities within the metal, and that it takes years of playing to allow the sound waves to align these molecules


actually, if you read the article, changes in the wood is based on scientific facts. You can see the frequency charts.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I am confident about wood's ability to change over time. With metal, it is debatable. However, master flutists and flute makers claim that during manufacture, there are miniscule errors and irregularities within the metal, and that it takes years of playing to allow the sound waves to align these molecules


actually, if you read the article, changes in the wood is based on scientific facts. You can see the frequency charts.
Who cares, eventually if one listens to their system long enough everything will be burnt/broken in.

This is such a absurd debate. Let me know if you have any 300 year old speakers laying round.
 
LAB3

LAB3

Senior Audioholic
This was about Speaker Burn In......I had it happen on head phones I guess I am the only member that has purchased new "Cans" and had to play them for a few hours. Before they "Woke UP".
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
Speaker burn in for me is about 5 minutes at 0db (350 watt per channel) and then I notch them up to +5db for about an hour. I feed them a little "Brothers in Arms" Primus "Pork Soda" and if they hold and don't fry I am good to go. Works for me.
 
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zhimbo

zhimbo

Audioholic General
However, master flutists and flute makers claim that during manufacture, there are miniscule errors and irregularities within the metal, and that it takes years of playing to allow the sound waves to align these molecules
.
What is the basis for these claims? People's memory of sounds from years ago? I don't trust people's memory of sounds from a hour ago.

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actually, if you read the article, changes in the wood is based on scientific facts. You can see the frequency charts.
There aren't any frequency charts in the article you linked to.
 
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ratso

ratso

Full Audioholic
This was about Speaker Burn In......I had it happen on head phones I guess I am the only member that has purchased new "Cans" and had to play them for a few hours. Before they "Woke UP".
actually (as the OP) this really wasn't about speaker burn in - at least not if you thought it was real, whether or not you heard it, etc. that was really the conversation i was TRYING to avoid. it was more about someone had MEASURABLE proof of changes in speakers over time and whether or not these changes were meaningful/audible. it seems as if a few sources here have said they are not.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
.. However, master flutists and flute makers claim that during manufacture, there are miniscule errors and irregularities within the metal, and that it takes years of playing to allow the sound waves to align these molecules


actually, if you read the article, changes in the wood is based on scientific facts. You can see the frequency charts.
Well, it is easy to make claims, much harder to demonstrate it and prove it.
Now, you better talk to a metallurgist for some facts, not the musicians.

Acoustic memory? Talk to people who research it, not the musicians. Sound waves aligning molecules in metal? Really??? One only has to prove it and that the musician can tell the difference between time 0 and time 1 year, or 10 years, or whatever interval. LOL total nonsense.

Oh, that Strad example you gave, well, lots of reason for wanting and having one. It is collectible, isn't it, because it is rare, right? It has a sound that some like. There is/was a professor of music who built a violin, had a competent player play it and a Strad but behind an acoustic curtain to some expert musicians, violin and whatever to see if anyone can differentiate between them. Unfortunately, no one could. So, there goes your story. Unfortunately the link to this demonstration is not active, or gone but it certainly is not just an urban legend.

Here you go, found the new link to the article. It was at Texas A&M

http://agnewsarchive.tamu.edu/dailynews/stories/BICH/Aug2503a.htm

There may be another link to the same issue by the same person that explained the DBT listening test and failure, I didn't see it in this particular page. But, you are welcome to call him.:)
 
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LAB3

LAB3

Senior Audioholic
actually (as the OP) this really wasn't about speaker burn in - at least not if you thought it was real, whether or not you heard it, etc. that was really the conversation i was TRYING to avoid. it was more about someone had MEASURABLE proof of changes in speakers over time and whether or not these changes were meaningful/audible. it seems as if a few sources here have said they are not.
OK I am off this one. Burn In was the thread name. Your first link was about driver burn in. :rolleyes:
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Well, it is easy to make claims, much harder to demonstrate it and prove it.
Now, you better talk to a metallurgist for some facts, not the musicians.

Acoustic memory? Talk to people who research it, not the musicians. Sound waves aligning molecules in metal? Really??? One only has to prove it and that the musician can tell the difference between time 0 and time 1 year, or 10 years, or whatever interval. LOL total nonsense.

Oh, that Strad example you gave, well, lots of reason for wanting and having one. It is collectible, isn't it, because it is rare, right? It has a sound that some like. There is/was a professor of music who built a violin, had a competent player play it and a Strad but behind an acoustic curtain to some expert musicians, violin and whatever to see if anyone can differentiate between them. Unfortunately, no one could. So, there goes your story. Unfortunately the link to this demonstration is not active, or gone but it certainly is not just an urban legend.

Here you go, found the new link to the article. It was at Texas A&M

http://agnewsarchive.tamu.edu/dailynews/stories/BICH/Aug2503a.htm

There may be another link to the same issue by the same person that explained the DBT listening test and failure, I didn't see it in this particular page. But, you are welcome to call him.:)

Ouch..... I hate to be the owner of a Strat just from a perceived sound perspective. :p Maybe Strats are easier to play than other makes.
 
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markw

Audioholic Overlord
I am confident about wood's ability to change over time.
Agree. After a period of time it decomposes but by that time the speakers themselves, and their owners, will long since have become dust.

But, most cabinets do burn in. Just apply a hot enough flame for enough time.

You're really sticking with this for a reason for speaker burn-in, arentcha? ...takes balls.
 
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Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
If modern science can explain everything and recreate mystical legends, why are violins over 300 years old so sought after? If wood is so "dead" as you describe, these multi-million dollar instruments should be easy to reproduce. Wood is an organic material. Age, climate, vibrations, etc, all affect its properties. I like to think of a speaker cabinet as a sound box. Much like in a violin, it is designed to be stiff, yet resonant.

fyi, Pyrrho, string instrument players change their strings at least once every 3 months, so string wear and tear is not really a factor. Most of the sound is affected by vibrations.

This article may be of interest: http://www.dalemfg.com/acousticaladjustment_021.htm

It shows how vibrations affects wood itself
I saw a show on PBS's Nova many years ago about why old violins sound different from new ones (it was probably the one entitled "The Great Violin Mystery"). When people in Stradivarius' day made violins, like violin makers today, they tended to buy the wood that was available to them and varnishes that were available to them. In Stradivarius' day, wood was typically floated down rivers to be processed downstream, and could spend a good amount of time in the water. This differs significantly from the way wood is typically shipped to market today, where the wood spends less time (if any) in water. How the wood is treated afterwards was also different, as they used different methods of storage and dealing with parasites (woodworm, etc.). Additionally, the varnishes that were made back then were very different formulations from varnish that is typically made today. And the glues that hold the thing together are also different. All of those affect the wood and how it resonates. In other words, when a Stradivarius violin was new, it was quite different from a typical modern violin; this has absolutely nothing to do with age or "vibrations."

If a modern violin maker were to make two violins, one from wood processed like the wood Stradivarius used, and one processed like typical modern wood processing, and applied varnish and glue to the former that was like the varnish used by Stradivarius, with modern varnish and glue applied to the latter, but otherwise made the same, the two would sound different from each other. It has nothing whatsoever to do with age or "vibrations."

Now, like all material things, there are changes with age. Violins, like every other object, are subject to decay. So, over enough time, there will be changes, but they are not likely for the better. So, of course, old violins tend to be repaired from time to time, to restore them to their former glory.

Additionally, violins are very different from speaker cabinets, as speaker cabinets are typically made of mdf, not thin solid wood, and the speaker cabinet is designed to resonate as little as possible (within the confines of the price and other objectives of the speaker). You are just wrong about what a speaker cabinet is supposed to do; it is not a soundbox (in the sense in which the hollow chamber of a violin or other stringed instrument is a soundbox); it is supposed to be completely inert and lack vibrations altogether. This is why a dense material, mdf, is selected, and why it is much thicker than the walls of a violin. A violin is supposed to resonate, but a speaker cabinet is not supposed to vibrate or resonate at all. So the two things are quite different, and it is absolutely ridiculous to pretend that the one is a good analogy for the other for most purposes. One is made to resonate, the other is made to not resonate. One is made of thin solid wood, the other is made of thick mdf.

Both, however, are subject to decay and destruction, and in those ways, they are alike, but no more so than any other two man-made objects.

As for the price, one is antique, and the other is new. Also, there are no new Stradivarius' being made, so the supply is limited. Price is largely determined by supply and demand, and it makes no difference whether that demand is reasonable or not.

There are other issues as well, as Stradivarius was good at marketing:

"Stradivary was a good salesman. He sold to kings and those instruments were well kept. His neighbors made good violins too, but they sold to musicians and were used up," Nagyvary said. "But everyone in Cremona made good violins because they used the same process of smoking or boiling the wood to kill wood worm.

"The violin trade doesn't like a scientist figuring out something simple like that," the biochemist said. "I think the comparison test is worthwhile. I wouldn't take a chance to stick my neck out otherwise."​

http://agnewsarchive.tamu.edu/dailynews/stories/BICH/Aug2503a.htm

And also, in blind listening, Stradivarius instruments do not sound any better than others that are properly made:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stradivarius#Controversy_over_sound_quality
 
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cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
Audio speakers compared to wood bodied musical instruments. Interesting.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Audio speakers compared to wood bodied musical instruments. Interesting.
It is a ridiculous comparison. There is a good reason why speakers are not generally put in cabinets that resemble the construction of a violin soundbox.

When they start making acoustic violins out of thick mdf, then the comparison might be apt, but not until then.
 
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markw

Audioholic Overlord
Either ignore him of have fun with him. He's a troll.

Click here for another example of his work.

It's interesting that one personality can go from such ignorance and brevity to this amazing intellect and verbosity, isn't it?

Now, with that distraction out of the way, back to your regularly scheduled programming...
 
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humsin94

Enthusiast
Click here for another example of his work.

It's interesting that one personality can go from such ignorance and brevity to this amazing intellect and verbosity, isn't it?

Now, with that distraction out of the way, back to your regularly scheduled programming...
You're being ignorant and subjective to the cause, in having to need to pull in another thread, which in fact shows your lack of patience and professionalism above all else. Now, this thread is meant to be a debate in the first place, thus arguments from both sides should be listened to. Now back to the debate.

Pyrrho, I believe MDF is used as a substitute to reduce costs in lower end speakers. Don't higher end speakers like the Airedale use solid wood?

A question for all: if wood is not designed to enhance the sound and is supposed to not vibrate, then shouldn't all speakers be made out of synthetic, noise-dampening materials?
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
You're being ignorant and subjective to the cause, in having to need to pull in another thread, which in fact shows your lack of patience and professionalism above all else. Now, this thread is meant to be a debate in the first place, thus arguments from both sides should be listened to. Now back to the debate.

Pyrrho, I believe MDF is used as a substitute to reduce costs in lower end speakers. Don't higher end speakers like the Airedale use solid wood?

A question for all: if wood is not designed to enhance the sound and is supposed to not vibrate, then shouldn't all speakers be made out of synthetic, noise-dampening materials?
Yeah... MDF!! :rolleyes:
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
A question for all: if wood is not designed to enhance the sound and is supposed to not vibrate, then shouldn't all speakers be made out of synthetic, noise-dampening materials?
Yes. And when I can figure out how to mass produce speaker cabinets based on fiberglass impregnated cement I will.

Some speaker designs call for no cabinet at all. It is all about the intended application at hand.

When engineers went and designed MDF they didn't have a singular goal of cost reduction. That is a waste of engineering resources. If you get a group of engineers involved it's wise to make the most of the $$ you are paying them.

They hit price, they hit machine-ability, they hit inertness, they hit efficiency (using left over product so as to reduce waste) etc...
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Agree. After a period of time it decomposes but by that time the speakers themselves, and their owners, will long since have become dust.
Well, considering all the antique furniture around from many centuries and millenia, it might be a verrry looong time:D

Also, I think he contributed the molecular changes to sound waves alone, not nature itself.;):D

But, most cabinets do burn in. Just apply a hot enough flame for enough time.
Or, they can burn out. :D

You're really sticking with this for a reason for speaker burn-in, arentcha? ...takes balls.
Perhaps easier than to admit defeat and being wrong.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I need to look into this:D Maybe even I can play it? But, how will it sound in my hands:rolleyes::eek::D
This reminded me of a Christmas concert I went too at church a long time ago. I kept hearing a note that was always off and it was the last instrument to stop playing by at least a bar. I just died laughing quietly to myself... I know the person was trying..thats why I laughed quietly to myself.

So if he can do it, you should be able to play also. :p
 
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