speaker burn in

[markw]

Perhaps easier than to admit defeat and being wrong.

Nah, he's just a troll lookin' for love, and an arrogant one to boot.

...classic troll who got caught with is pants down and doesn't have the cojones to admit it.

He's already shown that the facts involved in the original subject don't concern him. He'll just continue to throw in red herrings in order to elicit responses.

From now on it'll be like watching the cat knocking around a bug before he either kills it or it runs away.

 

[Pyrrho]

...
Pyrrho, I believe MDF is used as a substitute to reduce costs in lower end speakers. Don't higher end speakers like the Airedale use solid wood?

No and no. For really cheap speakers, they use particle board to save money. For most speakers, no matter how expensive they get, they use mdf, which is more dense than solid wood, and consequently is more acoustically inert, which makes it a superior material for making speakers. It is also more consistent; each piece of wood is different from other pieces of wood, due to grain, knots and such.

As for the Airedale, it is mdf, with a wood veneer for looks:

http://www.wharfedale.co.uk/Portals/0/PDF_Data/Manual/AIREDALE_HERITAGE_manual.pdf

Cheap speakers typically use a vinyl veneer to save money instead of a pretty wood veneer, but the veneer is just for looks, not for the sound. Mdf is for the sound.

Professional speakers that are made to be moved are often made of plywood for its durability and strength (and cost relative to solid wood) with reduced weight (reduced weight compared with mdf), not for its sound properties. Given the size of many professional speakers, the added weight of mdf would make them very, very heavy and difficult to move, so they use a lighter material instead.

A question for all: if wood is not designed to enhance the sound and is supposed to not vibrate, then shouldn't all speakers be made out of synthetic, noise-dampening materials?

Mdf is a synthetic, noise-dampening material:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium-density_fibreboard

http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/FAQ/MDF/#Q10

You don't get it by cutting down an mdf tree and sawing it into planks.

 

[PENG]

and whether or not these changes were meaningful/audible.

And I am still waiting to see comments on assuming those changes were meaningful and audible, wouldn't it be moot/irrelevant because no speaker designers have claimed that they could factor in those changes over time and were able to make accurate and consistent prediction that after so many hours their speakers would sound better, or more accurate. Edit: I am aware of the fact that some manufacturers do claim performance would improve after X hours of use but they typically say it in a very generic way with little specifics, and I definitely do not recall seeing any "future" graphs for after X hours of use under some specified conditions.

There is no way I would spent a lot of money on speakers that would change the way it sounds over time without knowing what the changes will be, to what extent, and when it will stop changing in the so called meaningful/audible way. I suppose many of us would like to see not only the typical frequency response (on/off axis), impedance, phase angle vs frequency graphs but also the same kind of graphs vs hours of use and/or vs how they are use. I mean, like the way Walter use/abuse them by feeding them 350W, or me who would not subject them to any more than a few watts most of the time. Really this whole breakin thing makes no sense at all due to so many unpredictable factors.

 

[humsin94]

1. If I was a troll, need I adamantly defend my point??? I would simply move on. I truly believe speakers break in.

2. Thanks for the manual. My mistake; I thought higher end speaker cabinets are made out of solid wood. By looking at Klipsch and Monitor Audio, I found that they both use MDF. Only looking at the Onkyo D-TK10 did I find a solid mahagony cabinet.

MDF's semi-organic in the sense that it is blended wood, bonded back together. Actually, the MDF's engineers, was one man named William Mason. He tried to make affordable insulation out of discarded wood chips. One night, he forgot to switch off his machinery, and he accidentally made MDF. Yes, he hit price, as well as carcinogen...

http://www.ehow.com/about_5103952_history-medium-density-fibreboard.html

As for vintage instruments, the sound of the wood is improved by playing. Many tycoons own a collection of vintage instruments. However, the value of the instrument is not merely in name and collectability, but also in sound. Knowing that the sound will deteriorate without playing, these instruments are often loaned to professionals so that the instrument can be in a constantly played state. World famous artists such as Gil Shaham, Maxim Vengerov, Joshua Bell, and Yo-Yo Ma, just to list a few.

 

[Gustavo]

I, for one, would like to believe in speaker burn in.

I want my cheap Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 to sound like the Revel Salon 2 tomorrow.

Or, since you guys are talking about violins, to speakers that bear that illustrious name - Sonus Faber Stradivarius.

 

[jinjuku]

1. If I was a troll, need I adamantly defend my point??? I would simply move on. I truly believe speakers break in.

2. Thanks for the manual. My mistake; I thought higher end speaker cabinets are made out of solid wood. By looking at Klipsch and Monitor Audio, I found that they both use MDF. Only looking at the Onkyo D-TK10 did I find a solid mahagony cabinet.

The issue is that you are debating an unsubstantiated belief. I truly believe in the church of the spaghetti monster. Now I deserve all the derision that comes along while trying to defend what is 99% most likely indefensible. You do have to allow for that 1% that the spaghetti monster that rules the cosmos and created everything may indeed exist.

Your claims are:

1. Based on 'belief'
2. Specious
3. Lacking any real world, fundamental, engineering principles
4. No credible, statistically significant, measurements or trials of a large enough N that show an appreciable audible difference.

 

[humsin94]

So you are all saying, that this humanly made "appliance", subjected to constant vibration, will not change and age, whether for good or for bad?? Any engineer will CONFIRM that there is definate wear and tear. Out of curiosity, if sound waves are able to heat matter, what makes you think that an MDF cabinet a.k.a. reconstituted wood, under constant heating and vibration, will not change over prolonged use???

I understand that there are stubborn people out there, but sometimes it is good to think outside of the box, instead of following the crowd.

 

[markw]

So you are all saying, that this humanly made "appliance", subjected to constant vibration, will not change and age, whether for good or for bad?? Any engineer will CONFIRM that there is definate wear and tear. Out of curiosity, if sound waves are able to heat matter, what makes you think that an MDF cabinet a.k.a. reconstituted wood, under constant heating and vibration, will not change over prolonged use???

I understand that there are stubborn people out there, but sometimes it is good to think outside of the box, instead of following the crowd.

It's not up to us to prove it doesn't make an audible difference. That's called "trying to prove a null" and, as you already know, that's not doable.

Since you're the one making the claim that it does make an audible difference, it's up for you to prove it will.

Since they started manufacturing speakers it's never been an issue until you brought it up and, so far, you've offered no proof it does but actually expect us to prove to you it doesn't? Now, that's funny!!!

It's a cute trick trying to shift the burden of proof on someone else in order to try prove your point but that's an old trolling tactic and this isn't my/our first rodeo.

So, all you've accomplished so far is offer even more convincing proof that, as I've said before, you're simply another troll, and they don't have a long life expectancy here.

...ttfn

 

[GranteedEV]

1. If I was a troll, need I adamantly defend my point??? I would simply move on. I truly believe speakers break in.

I can't do anything about your beliefs, but it doesn't make you right. The same applies to voodoo, organized religion, ghosts, kamehameha waves, black magic etc.

You can believe all you want, but until you prove it, it's really just a waste of MY time. And since you can't already prove it consistently and instantly, it's still a waste of my time whether it barely audibly exists or not.

I'd rather spend my time on what I can see in measurement and hear consistently. Consistently. Consistently. Consistently. Consistently. Consistently.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
I want my cheap Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 to sound like the Revel Salon 2 tomorrow.

....

I think you will have to wait a bit longer. The sad truth is, you may not be around to realize the benefits.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So you are all saying, that this humanly made "appliance", subjected to constant vibration, will not change and age, whether for good or for bad?? Any engineer will CONFIRM that there is definate wear and tear. Out of curiosity, if sound waves are able to heat matter, what makes you think that an MDF cabinet a.k.a. reconstituted wood, under constant heating and vibration, will not change over prolonged use???

I understand that there are stubborn people out there, but sometimes it is good to think outside of the box, instead of following the crowd.

Vibration? How much is there in a good speaker box? In a bad speaker box?
How will that affect the integrity of the material itself? Will electrons, shift orbits? Molecules rearrange into another molecule? After all, that is what you are insinuating with your claims.
Will the thickness of the material measurably change over time? Tell us how much and show us the evidence.

What sound waves are you talking about that heats matter? By how much?

What wear and tare? Are you abusing the box? How many flex cycles can it go through before failure? A million? A 100 million?
Since you are thinking out of the box, is that beyond science, please fill us in.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

As for vintage instruments, the sound of the wood is improved by playing.....

That is an interesting claim. How do you test it over time? Please explain in detail. If you have evidence, let's see it.

 

[gmichael]

I truly believe in the church of the spaghetti monster.

I knew there was a reason I like you.

 

[jinjuku]

So you are all saying, that this humanly made "appliance", subjected to constant vibration, will not change and age, whether for good or for bad?? Any engineer will CONFIRM that there is definate wear and tear. Out of curiosity, if sound waves are able to heat matter, what makes you think that an MDF cabinet a.k.a. reconstituted wood, under constant heating and vibration, will not change over prolonged use???

I understand that there are stubborn people out there, but sometimes it is good to think outside of the box, instead of following the crowd.

I don't doubt things change. It is called entropy. A 30 year old pair or Cerwin Vega's aren't going to sound the same as an exact model that was kept in some form of stasis for the same duration. For starters the 30 year old Cerwins will need reconed or new surround or both

But your entire point in a reasonable context is absurd. I have a 16 year old pair of PSB Century 500i's. I'm sure they don't measure EXACTLY the same as they did out of the box. WHO CARES? If anything they simply need recapped crossovers.

Again this entire debate is asinine.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So you are all saying, that this humanly made "appliance", subjected to constant vibration, will not change and age, whether for good or for bad?? Any engineer will CONFIRM that there is definate wear and tear.
....

....
As for vintage instruments, the sound of the wood is improved by playing. Many tycoons own a collection of vintage instruments. However, the value of the instrument is not merely in name and collectability, but also in sound. Knowing that the sound will deteriorate without playing, ....

It came to me that these two points you make are contradictory perhaps.

If the violin case is subjected to constant vibration and sound waves that generate heat in the case subjecting it to wear and tear how is the 2nd part applicable, sound improving with time???
All that wear and tare should be destroying the sound, not improving it.

 

[Gustavo]

................

I understand that there are stubborn people out there, but sometimes it is good to think outside of the box, instead of following the crowd.

Yes. It's not wise and easy to try to follow the crowd when you alone are inside the box. Unless, of course, you have the longevity to wait until the box is completely broken because of "wear and tear" due to "constant heating and vibration" after "prolonged use".

 

[humsin94]

It came to me that these two points you make are contradictory perhaps.

If the violin case is subjected to constant vibration and sound waves that generate heat in the case subjecting it to wear and tear how is the 2nd part applicable, sound improving with time???
All that wear and tare should be destroying the sound, not improving it.

Note the part where I say, "whether for for good or for bad". Age is able to deteriorate the sound of bad instruments, and enhance the sound of good ones. Not my words, but the words of any respectable luthier.

And no, electrons do not shift orbits. If you thought so, you might need to return to high school. However, MDF is a human made product and has it's irregularities, as well, contain biological cells (cells are affected by sonic waves). As you all know, even "oxygen-free" is not 100%. MDF, is also not microscopically uniform. Now, under constant vibrations, over time, these irregularities will shift to for a more uniform structure. Ever look at granite?? The specks of quartz, mica, etc, are relatively evenly dispersed. Similarly, on a less dense scale, organic matter like wood and MDF should develop a greater level of intercellular uniformity with prolonged vibrations.


p.s. markw: grow up. Don't just call other people trolls and not come up with objective statements. I am mature enough to have disproved several points. I would assume, most trolls don't prove to you that the expensive product development of MDF by the world's most talented engineers, was in fact one man who created it by accident?

 

[markw]

p.s. markw: grow up. Don't just call other people trolls and not come up with objective statements. I am mature enough to have disproved several points.

Gimme a fargin' break, man. Two days ago you never even heard of MDF and now you want to be considered an expert?

The internet has spawned a new generation of arrogant fools who know nothing.

The only points you've disproved, by total lack of evidence, is that you tried to make. Nothing you've said has shown any evidence of audible changes, just the ability to google for anything that looks remotely intellectual enough to the foolish.

As for maturity, the only "maturity" you've shown is the ability to masturbate, albeit mentally. And that. like moving ones bowels, is something best done in private. In your case, either one is quite fitting.

As for me, you continue doing a very good job of proving my main point. I guess you like being made a fool of.

But, like most trolls, any attention means you win. So, up to now, I guess I'm just as guilty of feeding this one as anyone else.

Since ignoring them is the best way to get rid of them, even though you make an excellent psychological scratching post, this may well be my last post to you.

 

[humsin94]

For starters, I first worked with MDF in Gr.6 in design tech. I still have my MDF bookstand...


As for you, you have made no point, except for criticizing me personally, having found no objective point in the argument. The internet has worked to expand the knowledge and understanding of the younger generation to provide us with information to challenge arrogant old nuts, like yourself

 

[gmichael]

Note the part where I say, "whether for for good or for bad". Age is able to deteriorate the sound of bad instruments, and enhance the sound of good ones. Not my words, but the words of any respectable luthier.

And no, electrons do not shift orbits. If you thought so, you might need to return to high school. However, MDF is a human made product and has it's irregularities, as well, contain biological cells (cells are affected by sonic waves). As you all know, even "oxygen-free" is not 100%. MDF, is also not microscopically uniform. Now, under constant vibrations, over time, these irregularities will shift to for a more uniform structure. Ever look at granite?? The specks of quartz, mica, etc, are relatively evenly dispersed. Similarly, on a less dense scale, organic matter like wood and MDF should develop a greater level of intercellular uniformity with prolonged vibrations.


p.s. markw: grow up. Don't just call other people trolls and not come up with objective statements. I am mature enough to have disproved several points. I would assume, most trolls don't prove to you that the expensive product development of MDF by the world's most talented engineers, was in fact one man who created it by accident?

I think that most people's point is that the changes to the wood will be minute during the first few hundred hours. Surely not enough to warrant a noticeable enough change in sound to be attributed to "burn in".

The fact to you think it does tickles them to the point of ridiculing the source.

I do not rule out that there may be other factors that could contribute to burn in. Sound waves wearing in the wood isn't one of them.



That's enough serious talk from me. I prefere to remain the class clown, or at least one of them (this place is oozing with clowns)