Hello, looking for a turntable recommendation for my system.

[TLS Guy]

Well with respect please explain to me then why 2 different phono pre amps can sound so different, I also tried an NAD external unit some time back and that was different again.

As for TT setup I do know all about Azmuth, VTA and so on and have spent time ensuring its set correctly.

The reason is probably the capacitance loading.

All cartridges require a different capacitance loading. The problem is that the capacitance loading of cables and preamps vary widely. This has nothing to do with how they correct the RIAA curve which is nearly always correct in my experience.

The correct loading for every cartridge is unique.

In the past this has been handled by some.

For instance my SME arms have low capacitance cables. Back in the day SME assumed owners were competent and so you soldered the correct capacitor to the terminals on the base of the arm. So this is what I do with my SME arms except one

Peter Walker of Quad put dip switches on this Quad 44 preamp, so you could set the correct voltage gain for your cartridge.

Also have a vintage Decca ffss arm and head, and its preamp is a Quad 22 I have had for around sixty years. Now Peter found that the Decca ffss heads worked best with a load impedance of 68K ohms rather than the standard 47K. At that time in the UK Decca ffss heads were by far the commonest and pretty much universal on high end turntables.

One of the problems with disc reproduction is that really the only standard is RIAA curve and 47K ohm input impedance for moving magnet and variable reluctance cartridges, with moving coils being a very different ball game.

So the difference you are hearing, if indeed there is a true difference is due to differences in loading capacitance of the wiring from cartridge to preamp and the capacitance loading of the RIAA input most likely.

Optimizing disc reproduction is not straightforward because of a degree of lack of standardization, which due to different cartridge designs is virtually impossible.

Vintage Decca/Garrard Quad 22 rig.

Same turntable with 78 Decca head. They slide on and off.

I seem to have accumulated a number of turntable over the years, that have had a variety of SME arms at one time or another.

This Thorens TD 150 I bought in 1965 it was one of the first made. It has a very low serial number. It has an SME III arm now with Shure V15 xmr. Pre amp is Quad 44.

I bought this Thorens TD 125 MK 11 non working and restored it for our family room and found and SME 3 arm for it. Preamp is Quad 34.

I have bought very few LPs since the CD really came of age. But I have a large legacy collection going back to when I was seven years old and that was the mono era.

LP reproduction can be very good, but everything has to be just right from turntable, arm, wiring and correct input loading, that includes input capacitance seen at the cartridge and correct loading impedance. The latter is pretty much standard at 47K and correct playback of the RIAA curve. In my experience the big variable is the capacitance as seen at the cartridge terminals.

 

[highfigh]

Nah, 'chump change' , here's the one ya gotta get !!

2024 Golden Ear: CH Precision P10 Phonostage - The Absolute Sound

2024 Golden Ear: CH Precision P10 Phonostage - More than a year after obtaining one for review and later purchasing it, I’ve heard no phono preamp that betters or comes close to the P10’s transparency, dynamic authority, background quiet, transient and timbral “rightness,” and ability to set up...

www.theabsolutesound.com

Remember, Gold is only three electrons away from Lead- close enough for all practical purposes when making ears.

 

[Phil J N.Z.]

Remember, Gold is only three electrons away from Lead- close enough for all practical purposes when making ears.

OK you give me the winning lotto numbers and I may look at it, there is no way anyone can justify the price of that it's just stupid.

 

[TLS Guy]

OK you give me the winning lotto numbers and I may look at it, there is no way anyone can justify the price of that it's just stupid.

Just stupid is the point he is making. Hoping different preamps will solve your problem is futile. To get the results you want just choosing different preamps is like gambling on a lottery. The only way to really get it right is to find the optimal loading capacitance of the cartridge and know the capacitance of the PU leads and the input. You add them together, if that adds up to a greater number than the required cartridge loading, then you need low capacitance phono leads. If the required capacitance of leads and input is lower then required then you add a capacitor equal to the difference across the input. Then you have optimal loading.

A lot of people, and probably most, don't expect nirvana from LP reproduction. I do expect quality close to good CD quality and better than some. However LP reproduction is not forgiving and really good results are the province of the somewhat obsessional. You won't get what you want just throwing money at different phono preamps. That is like throwing the proverbial darts in the dark.

 

[Phil J N.Z.]

The reason is probably the capacitance loading.

All cartridges require a different capacitance loading. The problem is that the capacitance loading of cables and preamps vary widely. This has nothing to do with how they correct the RIAA curve which is nearly always correct in my experience.

The correct loading for every cartridge is unique.

In the past this has been handled by some.

For instance my SME arms have low capacitance cables. Back in the day SME assumed owners were competent and so you soldered the correct capacitor to the terminals on the base of the arm. So this is what I do with my SME arms except one

Peter Walker of Quad put dip switches on this Quad 44 preamp, so you could set the correct voltage gain for your cartridge.

Also have a vintage Decca ffss arm and head, and its preamp is a Quad 22 I have had for around sixty years. Now Peter found that the Decca ffss heads worked best with a load impedance of 68K ohms rather than the standard 47K. At that time in the UK Decca ffss heads were by far the commonest and pretty much universal on high end turntables.

One of the problems with disc reproduction is that really the only standard is RIAA curve and 47K ohm input impedance for moving magnet and variable reluctance cartridges, with moving coils being a very different ball game.

So the difference you are hearing, if indeed there is a true difference is due to differences in loading capacitance of the wiring from cartridge to preamp and the capacitance loading of the RIAA input most likely.

Optimizing disc reproduction is not straightforward because of a degree of lack of standardization, which due to different cartridge designs is virtually impossible.

Vintage Decca/Garrard Quad 22 rig.

Same turntable with 78 Decca head. They slide on and off.

I seem to have accumulated a number of turntable over the years, that have had a variety of SME arms at one time or another.

This Thorens TD 150 I bought in 1965 it was one of the first made. It has a very low serial number. It has an SME III arm now with Shure V15 xmr. Pre amp is Quad 44.

I bought this Thorens TD 125 MK 11 non working and restored it for our family room and found and SME 3 arm for it. Preamp is Quad 34.

I have bought very few LPs since the CD really came of age. But I have a large legacy collection going back to when I was seven years old and that was the mono era.

LP reproduction can be very good, but everything has to be just right from turntable, arm, wiring and correct input loading, that includes input capacitance seen at the cartridge and correct loading impedance. The latter is pretty much standard at 47K and correct playback of the RIAA curve. In my experience the big variable is the capacitance as seen at the cartridge terminals.

The reason is probably the capacitance loading.

All cartridges require a different capacitance loading. The problem is that the capacitance loading of cables and preamps vary widely. This has nothing to do with how they correct the RIAA curve which is nearly always correct in my experience.

The correct loading for every cartridge is unique.

In the past this has been handled by some.

For instance my SME arms have low capacitance cables. Back in the day SME assumed owners were competent and so you soldered the correct capacitor to the terminals on the base of the arm. So this is what I do with my SME arms except one

Peter Walker of Quad put dip switches on this Quad 44 preamp, so you could set the correct voltage gain for your cartridge.

Also have a vintage Decca ffss arm and head, and its preamp is a Quad 22 I have had for around sixty years. Now Peter found that the Decca ffss heads worked best with a load impedance of 68K ohms rather than the standard 47K. At that time in the UK Decca ffss heads were by far the commonest and pretty much universal on high end turntables.

One of the problems with disc reproduction is that really the only standard is RIAA curve and 47K ohm input impedance for moving magnet and variable reluctance cartridges, with moving coils being a very different ball game.

So the difference you are hearing, if indeed there is a true difference is due to differences in loading capacitance of the wiring from cartridge to preamp and the capacitance loading of the RIAA input most likely.

Optimizing disc reproduction is not straightforward because of a degree of lack of standardization, which due to different cartridge designs is virtually impossible.

Vintage Decca/Garrard Quad 22 rig.

Same turntable with 78 Decca head. They slide on and off.

I seem to have accumulated a number of turntable over the years, that have had a variety of SME arms at one time or another.

This Thorens TD 150 I bought in 1965 it was one of the first made. It has a very low serial number. It has an SME III arm now with Shure V15 xmr. Pre amp is Quad 44.

I bought this Thorens TD 125 MK 11 non working and restored it for our family room and found and SME 3 arm for it. Preamp is Quad 34.

I have bought very few LPs since the CD really came of age. But I have a large legacy collection going back to when I was seven years old and that was the mono era.

LP reproduction can be very good, but everything has to be just right from turntable, arm, wiring and correct input loading, that includes input capacitance seen at the cartridge and correct loading impedance. The latter is pretty much standard at 47K and correct playback of the RIAA curve. In my experience the big variable is the capacitance as seen at the cartridge terminals.

Hello, yes I have been seeing lots of comments on the web re this capacitance matching, looking at my Cartridge it specifies 153-300 pf, now here is where I get lost because where is that measured as in at the input to the Phono Stage adding up the the pf of the tone arm wiring and the cable between the TT and phono stage, the info I have seen re the the SL1500c is from someone who measured it and he had a reading of 32pf for the tonearm cable, am assuming that is before the internal preamp as this person stated he has no way of determining the load presented by the internal preamp.

The RCA lead I have has a capacitance of 130pf, so adding the tone arm to that if I am correct that's a total of 162pf, some of the Phono Stage units I have looked at have no adjustment at all on the capacitance and some do, I read that its better to have it as low as possible is that correct.

 

[Phil J N.Z.]

Just stupid is the point he is making. Hoping different preamps will solve your problem is futile. To get the results you want just choosing different preamps is like gambling on a lottery. The only way to really get it right is to find the optimal loading capacitance of the cartridge and know the capacitance of the PU leads and the input. You add them together, if that adds up to a greater number than the required cartridge loading, then you need low capacitance phono leads. If the required capacitance of leads and input is lower then required then you add a capacitor equal to the difference across the input. Then you have optimal loading.

A lot of people, and probably most, don't expect nirvana from LP reproduction. I do expect quality close to good CD quality and better than some. However LP reproduction is not forgiving and really good results are the province of the somewhat obsessional. You won't get what you want just throwing money at different phono preamps. That is like throwing the proverbial darts in the dark.

I was looking at one of either of below units and would like to hear what you think, bothe seem to have a good review am not looking at going to MC as too expensive for me on a pension.

SPARTAN 5 Moving Magnet Phono Stage by Michael Fidler

Economical low noise moving magnet phonostage with mono switch, subsonic filter, linear power supply, and accurate RIAA equalisation

michaelfidler.com

Domino Phono Preamp

A high performance MM/MC phono preamplifier with selectable gain settings. Made in England.

tisburyaudio.com

 

[TLS Guy]

Hello, yes I have been seeing lots of comments on the web re this capacitance matching, looking at my Cartridge it specifies 153-300 pf, now here is where I get lost because where is that measured as in at the input to the Phono Stage adding up the the pf of the tone arm wiring and the cable between the TT and phono stage, the info I have seen re the the SL1500c is from someone who measured it and he had a reading of 32pf for the tonearm cable, am assuming that is before the internal preamp as this person stated he has no way of determining the load presented by the internal preamp.

The RCA lead I have has a capacitance of 130pf, so adding the tone arm to that if I am correct that's a total of 162pf, some of the Phono Stage units I have looked at have no adjustment at all on the capacitance and some do, I read that its better to have it as low as possible is that correct.

I would aim for right in the middle of the range, so about 225 pf. The leads in the turntable from cartridge to phono outputs will be too low to matter I would think.

I like the SME approach to use very low capacitance cables from turntable to phono input. Then I add the required capacitance across the input. If you don't solder, then getting a phono preamp with adjustable input makes sense. All my four turntables are connected to Quad preamps and specked accurately. So I have no trouble getting it right.

 

[lovinthehd]

Hello, yes I have been seeing lots of comments on the web re this capacitance matching, looking at my Cartridge it specifies 153-300 pf, now here is where I get lost because where is that measured as in at the input to the Phono Stage adding up the the pf of the tone arm wiring and the cable between the TT and phono stage, the info I have seen re the the SL1500c is from someone who measured it and he had a reading of 32pf for the tonearm cable, am assuming that is before the internal preamp as this person stated he has no way of determining the load presented by the internal preamp.

The RCA lead I have has a capacitance of 130pf, so adding the tone arm to that if I am correct that's a total of 162pf, some of the Phono Stage units I have looked at have no adjustment at all on the capacitance and some do, I read that its better to have it as low as possible is that correct.

If using the internal phono stage it doesn't really matter, tho.

 

[TLS Guy]

If using the internal phono stage it doesn't really matter, tho.

If you use the internal phono stage, then you connect to a standard RCA line input and not the RIAA phono input. I have never used one of those, and have no idea how they spec. the RIAA inputs of them. I doubt they even state. the input specifications.

As you are finding out, playing a disc is easy, getting optimal results is not, and that is the rub.

 

[Mikado463]

OK you give me the winning lotto numbers and I may look at it, there is no way anyone can justify the price of that it's just stupid.

While I agree those that do opt for that phono-pre do so, because 'they can' ........

 

[TLS Guy]

I was looking at one of either of below units and would like to hear what you think, bothe seem to have a good review am not looking at going to MC as too expensive for me on a pension.

SPARTAN 5 Moving Magnet Phono Stage by Michael Fidler

Economical low noise moving magnet phonostage with mono switch, subsonic filter, linear power supply, and accurate RIAA equalisation

michaelfidler.com

Domino Phono Preamp

A high performance MM/MC phono preamplifier with selectable gain settings. Made in England.

tisburyaudio.com

I was busy yesterday with Mother's day. I have looked at those preamps. The Spartan seems well built, but the bass turnover frequency is too high. An RIAA circuit does not a bass turnover frequency to stop excessive speaker cone movement from warp, but the optimal turnover is 30 Hz and not 40 Hz as in the Spartan.

The Domino has totally inadequate specification to give an opinion.

An optimal turnover is for bass warp control is 30 Hz.

 

[highfigh]

OK you give me the winning lotto numbers and I may look at it, there is no way anyone can justify the price of that it's just stupid.

The seller can- all they need to do is say "I want this much".

I have posted several times about a friend, who asked Ray Kimber why his cables cost so much and Kimber said "Because I make a lot of money".