Speaker audition

[GranteedEV]

Have you ever seen great-room layouts with huge vaulted ceilings and openings into dining rooms and kitchens? These are becoming more popular these days.

I only have a 10 ft ceiling where I listen, but it's most certainly opens in the back to the kitchen and to other rooms, and not perfectly symmetrical either (Window/Blinds to the right, drywall to the left)...

Yet I hear no slap echo. I've done the clap test, everything.

The only time i've heard it, was when we moved everything out of the room to do some renovations. As soon as the couches, tables, subwoofer, TV, carpet come into play, the room becomes rather typical. Inoffensive.

No it's not perfect, but that's all the more reason to use speakers which don't illuminate the weaknesses of the room.

With my relatively mediocre EMP speakers, I get a ****ing huge soundstage on the right recordings, I get pretty accurate tonality to my ears... I don't however get very good bass definition compared to headphone listening. In fact the measured response is so bad, it would take unbelievable amounts of thick bass trapping to do anything meaningful. I'm pretty convinced that unless the room is 100% custom, Multiple subs 15hz - 100hz and cardioid bass 100hz - 400hz, is the only way to get good bass in this room without turning it into a total "center of all jokes"

 

[Irvrobinson]

Have you ever seen great-room layouts with huge vaulted ceilings and openings into dining rooms and kitchens? These are becoming more popular these days.

That's my room to a tee. They can be great for an audio system, but can create havoc in the bass. Getting mains and sub placement just right is paramount.

 

[Nuance AH]

I only have a 10 ft ceiling where I listen, but it's most certainly opens in the back to the kitchen and to other rooms, and not perfectly symmetrical either (Window/Blinds to the right, drywall to the left)...

Yet I hear no slap echo. I've done the clap test, everything.

The only time i've heard it, was when we moved everything out of the room to do some renovations. As soon as the couches, tables, subwoofer, TV, carpet come into play, the room becomes rather typical. Inoffensive.

No it's not perfect, but that's all the more reason to use speakers which don't illuminate the weaknesses of the room.

I am happy to hear your room sounds good. And I agree, using a great speaker design is key. Earlier when I talked about a flawed speaker in a room with poor acoustics, I was responding to a post that had a confusing tone, of which was later cleared up. In said post it could have been perceived that a person should cure a room's flaws by using a speaker that sounded good in said room likely due to flaws of it's own, which helped masked the room's. That has now been cleared up. In my opinion, if the speaker has great off-axis performance and sound power it will sound much better in a crappy room than speakers that do not. They will not, however, completely resolve the room issue, but rather simply avoid some of them. I've heard some extra reverb and slap echo in many of the great-room style layouts, even though they were heavily furnished. I've also heard rooms of that nature sound great, and while using the same speakers.

With my relatively mediocre EMP speakers, I get a ****ing huge soundstage on the right recordings, I get pretty accurate tonality to my ears... I don't however get very good bass definition compared to headphone listening. In fact the measured response is so bad, it would take unbelievable amounts of thick bass trapping to do anything meaningful. I'm pretty convinced that unless the room is 100% custom, Multiple subs 15hz - 100hz and cardioid bass 100hz - 400hz, is the only way to get good bass in this room without turning it into a total "center of all jokes"

Bass is very hard to get "right" without a custom room or multiple subs and PEQ. Bass traps should be added at the end if the room still has ringing/too much decay. After I added multiple subs I didn't "need" EQ, but I didn't like having my response below 50Hz running 6dB hot due to subwoofer coupling, so I pulled it down a bit so it followed a typical 12dB octave curve as close as possible until the crossover point. Things sounded awesome, but the bass tightened up even more after putting traps in the corners. The difference in my waterfall measurement plots was very apparent. Every room is difference, but even in my room the bass improve by simply adding corner traps. Of course, I don't have a great room layout, so...

That's my room to a tee. They can be great for an audio system, but can create havoc in the bass. Getting mains and sub placement just right is paramount.

I agree, and I am happy to hear things sound good in your room. I've had a few experiences in rooms such as that, and only a couple were good (one was really good actually). My buddy Terry (TJHUB) has one of the best sounding rooms I've heard, and that was before adding room treatments. I suspect the combination of dimensions and sloping vaulted ceiling helped reduce reflection times. Rooms that large and wide open won't benefit from corner traps IMO, so PEQ was key and really helped. Added multiple subs was the icing on the cake. I know people say PEQ doesn't work in the time domain, but I'm not so sure. It certainly sounded like it did in his room, though I'd love to see measurements to be sure (I think he has some). In a room like yours I think Grant's recommendation is key: multiple subwoofers of applicable size and superior sound quality in combination with PEQ; it'll do wonders!

 

[Irvrobinson]

In a room like yours I think Grant's recommendation is key: multiple subwoofers of applicable size and superior sound quality in combination with PEQ; it'll do wonders!

Normally I'd completely agree. In my case my choice of subwoofer (the DD18+) was so expensive I thought I'd order them one at a time until I was satisfied. Luckily just one of these monsters did the trick, but it was just luck. And the funny thing is, the magic spot for the sub ended up being just 3 inches off center of midway between the mains, and at the same distance from the back wall.

Too bad there's no way to make sound waves visible, because I'd like to see why midway between the mains sounds and measures lumpy, and 3 inches to the right of center is great. That must be one weird set of room modes.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

OK, everything is good. Life is good.

Honestly, if I get a new custom house, we're talking Harman Reference Room-style treatments, okay?

Let's get back to talking about speakers, boys.

Just got the Phil3, just in case you boys haven't noticed.

In a word, magnificent.

 

[Nuance AH]

Normally I'd completely agree. In my case my choice of subwoofer (the DD18+) was so expensive I thought I'd order them one at a time until I was satisfied. Luckily just one of these monsters did the trick, but it was just luck. And the funny thing is, the magic spot for the sub ended up being just 3 inches off center of midway between the mains, and at the same distance from the back wall.

Too bad there's no way to make sound waves visible, because I'd like to see why midway between the mains sounds and measures lumpy, and 3 inches to the right of center is great. That must be one weird set of room modes.

Haha, you and me both man. Perhaps one day our measurement capabilities will allow us to see the sound waves.

Congrats on only using one sub to achieve a great in-room response. 3 inches? Wow! Well, you know what they say, "even a few inches can make a large difference," which you've proven through your own experiences. Properly implementing one subwoofer in a room such as yours is difficult to do, but I hadn't realized you had the monster DD18+. Nice work and nice choice!

 

[DS-21]

Well, time and frequency response aren't the same thing, but I think I understand what you mean to say (Correct me if I'm wrong) is that 'time and a given frequency' are directly proportional because frequency is simply how many cycles in a given period of time.

No, I mean what I literally wrote. That is the general consensus of the learned community. In one of those monster bass-in-small-rooms theory threads on diyaudio.com Todd Welti and Dr. Geddes had an exchange where both basically called waterfalls useless, because frequency response defines the bass.

And here's Dr. Toole:

***ecause we know that low-frequency room resonances generally behave in a minimum-phase manner, we know that if there are no prominent peaks protruding above the average spectrum level, there will not be prominent ringing in the time domain. It is this indirect, inferential knowledge that permits us to confidently use frequency responses as a primary source of information about room behavior at low frequencies.

Sound Reproduction,, at 245.

Absolutely! I have shared the same experience. Same reason as mentioned before, the rooms fundamental frequencies get excited and even though we EQ'd down the amplitude/peaks where the waves were constructive, we still have ringing. We only solved a portion of the problem using EQ.

The reason in the nearfield it sounds much cleaner is because sound falloff is an inverse square, so by being closer to the subwoofer the ringing in the room is less noticeable.

Now that I think about it, I suspect the real reason why I heard hangover with the EQ'ed single sub is that presence of higher-Q peaks than I had set up the measurement system to resolve. Maybe I'll try it again, turning off the other two subs in the room.

Moreover, in the modal region of a small room, sound doesn't fall off the way it does in the statistical region. So the inverse square thing doesn't apply.

Well, your really not trying to randomize the excitation of room modes, your trying to manage them.

There are different approaches. Geddes' approach is literally to randomize the excitation of room modes by having bass sources randomly distributed around the room in all three dimensions. I've tried more structured approaches (the Welti/Devantier midwalls, for instance) and Geddes' approach not only sounds more like real music, and measures better prior to EQ, but also seems to allow greater headroom from a given volume displacement of subs.

Of the titans of serious audio we're talking about, it's worth noting that the only one who wrote his dissertation on the physics of bass in small rooms is Earl Geddes.

Well, the subwoofer(s) itself is still an energy source. But, yes, when waves collide destructively, like you said, they cancel eachother. Again, I think I'm just rephrasing what you mean...I don't mean to come off like a prick!

Geddes has written that a sub acts as both a source and a sink. Then he followed up with some math that I wasn't smart enough to follow.

 

[psbfan9]

Decision

I ordered these today.

EMP Tek E55Ti Tower Speakers--March Madness Sale 3/2012

&

EMP Tek E56Ci Large Center Channel Speaker--March Madness Sale 3/2012

Second time I've bought speakers without auditioning them. It worked well the last time.

Oh, something ADTG won't understand, but the Deftechs are for sale....

 

[GranteedEV]

Tell us what you think of them. I'd imagine they're not too different from PSB's image series, although i bet they can play a bit louder.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I ordered these today.

EMP Tek E55Ti Tower Speakers--March Madness Sale 3/2012

&

EMP Tek E56Ci Large Center Channel Speaker--March Madness Sale 3/2012

Second time I've bought speakers without auditioning them. It worked well the last time.

Oh, something ADTG won't understand, but the Deftechs are for sale....

Changes. Sometimes we just need a little change.

 

[psbfan9]

I ordered these today.

EMP Tek E55Ti Tower Speakers--March Madness Sale 3/2012

&

EMP Tek E56Ci Large Center Channel Speaker--March Madness Sale 3/2012

I ended up ordering the E5Tir towers because they're shorter. I thought the E55Ti were too tall for my small room.
They should be here tomorrow.

The center came today:

View attachment 10091

View attachment 10092

View attachment 10093

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Burl red looks great.

Now you are up to GranteedEV's standard.

I believe they will sound great.

 

[psbfan9]

The E5Ti towers came today. These speakers are gorgeous. The finish is very nice.
I hooked them up and played some music and a little tv and thought they were okay. Later I ran audyssey setup (Onkyo TX SR608 receiver) and the sound was not as good as I thought it should be. It was thin, not as full as I thought it should be. I looked at the settings after running audyssey and was surprised to see it set the distance of all 5 speakers and the sub at 30 feet. From the front edge of the front L/R it's 12 feet to the front edge of the couch. It set the Xover at 40 hz which I think is fine. I left the settings as is for now. While listening to a variation of Satie's Gymnopdies on Slacker through a BD player connected via HDMI, there was a hiss that I hadn't noticed before. I turned the sound all the way down and put my ear up to the tweeter and there was a definite buzz. Not a hiss like I heard in the B&W's, this was a buzz. I turned the BD player off and turned on the computer connected via HDMI and the buzz was still there. I'm not sure if it's the speakers or the electronics. But I had never heard this buzz through the DefTechs.
I'll play around more tomorrow to see if I can this figured out. Any suggestions are appreciated.

 

[GranteedEV]

Now you are up to GranteedEV's standard.

........ouch

 

[Nuance AH]

The E5Ti towers came today. These speakers are gorgeous. The finish is very nice.
I hooked them up and played some music and a little tv and thought they were okay. Later I ran audyssey setup (Onkyo TX SR608 receiver) and the sound was not as good as I thought it should be. It was thin, not as full as I thought it should be. I looked at the settings after running audyssey and was surprised to see it set the distance of all 5 speakers and the sub at 30 feet. From the front edge of the front L/R it's 12 feet to the front edge of the couch. It set the Xover at 40 hz which I think is fine. I left the settings as is for now. While listening to a variation of Satie's Gymnopdies on Slacker through a BD player connected via HDMI, there was a hiss that I hadn't noticed before. I turned the sound all the way down and put my ear up to the tweeter and there was a definite buzz. Not a hiss like I heard in the B&W's, this was a buzz. I turned the BD player off and turned on the computer connected via HDMI and the buzz was still there. I'm not sure if it's the speakers or the electronics. But I had never heard this buzz through the DefTechs.
I'll play around more tomorrow to see if I can this figured out. Any suggestions are appreciated.

Wow - I've heard of electronics causing a buzz (like the DirecTV box or amplifiers), but not speakers. If it really is the speakers I'd think there is some sort of flaw; I'd swap them out if I was you.

What you could do is move your receiver and BD player to a different breaker, then fire them up and see if the buzz is still there. You could also try a "cheater" plug with the receiver and BD player in attempt to neutralize the buzz. If it's the receiver or BD player the buzz will likely go away with the cheater plugs installed; if not then it's the speakers or a connection issue.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

........ouch

You know one of these days you will eventually outdo me...........after you graduate.........and especially after I retire.

Those red horns will kick my a$$.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

... this was a buzz. I turned the BD player off and turned on the computer connected via HDMI and the buzz was still there. I'm not sure if it's the speakers or the electronics. But I had never heard this buzz through the DefTechs.
I'll play around more tomorrow to see if I can this figured out. Any suggestions are appreciated.

Sorry to hear about that. Sucks.

The SM450 were hooked up to the same exact AVR and speaker cables? Nothing else has changed, except the EMP speakers?

Then I have no choice but to say that those speakers are probably defective.

 

[psbfan9]

Sorry to hear about that. Sucks.

The SM450 were hooked up to the same exact AVR and speaker cables? Nothing else has changed, except the EMP speakers?

Then I have no choice but to say that those speakers are probably defective.

Yes, everything is exactly the same except the new EMP speakers. No buzz in the center channel just the towers. The buzz is more audible in the right front than the left.
I'm going to play with the settings now. I don't get why audyssey set the distance at 30 feet. The other speakers were half that and the surrounds were 7 feet.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes, everything is exactly the same except the new EMP speakers. No buzz in the center channel just the towers. The buzz is more audible in the right front than the left.
I'm going to play with the settings now. I don't get why audyssey set the distance at 30 feet. The other speakers were half that and the surrounds were 7 feet.

Put the tower as the center speaker. See if it buzzes. If it does, it is clearly defective!

 

[jimdgoulding]

DeVore Model 9's and Reference 3A Grand Veena's would be on my short list in my modest size room. Efficient enough for tube amplification, too. But, if I had a larger room and some mega watt amps, Magnepan 3.7's, baby. All are under $8k. That's a lot of sour dough, I know, but worth it in thrills.