M

MidnightSensi2

Audioholic Chief
As DS-21 says, not everyone needs "panels". Some people just need more carpet, curtains, drapes, sofas, etc. Siegfried Linkwitz says the same.
Carpet, curtains, drapes and sofas can certainly help with the upper midrange and treble, but lower midrange and bass generally they loose effectiveness.

For example, my room has non-synthetic carpet (which is better for even absorption because synthetic the lengths are all the same, non-synthetic they vary), has heavy drapes, big plush chairs.

What I ended up with was pretty good high frequency and upper midrange absorption, but terrible bass absorption. Even though I run my system nearly flat, the bass would 'linger.' Add to that, my room is all concrete walls....and is so air tight my subwoofers can shut the door if I leave it open.

Bass traps didn't completely solve my problem, but they really helped. I still have room modes, and EQ helps, but it doesn't help in the time-domain. That's where the bass traps did help.

I say that to say this: Check out how your room sounds, then treat it. ;) I still plan on adding more traps, because I do notice them helping. My main problem isn't level frequency response, it's getting RID of the bass so that the next note is clear.
 
A

ack_bak

Audioholic
To quote Dennis Erskine:

The single most important component in any home theater system is the room. It is also that component, which if implemented incorrectly, will be the most expensive to correct. Very, very good speakers in a poor room are going to sound bad. That is not a statement about speakers, it is nothing more than physics. 80% of what you hear in a room doesn't come from the speakers...it comes from the room itself. No matter how expensive, or how great, speakers may be, they cannot overcome the laws of physics and an 80% problem.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The single most important component in any home theater system is the room...
No it's not. The single most important component in any home theater system is the speakers.


80% of what you hear in a room doesn't come from the speakers...it comes from the room itself...
Wrong. According to Homer's law of room acoustics, (X^2 + Y^3 - Z^4)/BS = % of what you hear in room.
 
Last edited:
A

ack_bak

Audioholic
No it's not. The single most important component in any home theater system is the speakers.




Wrong. According to Newton's law of room acoustics, (X^2 + Y^3 - Z^4)/BS = % of what you hear in room.
So how many professional home theaters have you designed from the ground up? And what is your professional background and experience in the industry?

Why should I believe you over Dennis Erskine?

Perhaps you have a white paper or two I could read on how room acoustics play little to any role in the role of sound in a room?
 
A

ack_bak

Audioholic
Thought this was an interesting thread:
Need qualified room acoustician

His final analysis:
I have had 6 pair of speakers In this room. The problem had nothing to do with speakers but was created by a room designer who didn't pay attention to the details and then refused to own the problem. With help from people I have communicated with on various internet forums and GIK Acoustics, the problem is 85% resolved and I'm still working on the other 15%.

As for the Maggie recommendation, the 20.1's were one of my two primary possibilities when i was doing my speaker search but the local dealer apparently had them set up poorly because there was NONE of the Maggie magic so I went elsewhere
I don't have a list of all 6 speakers pairs he tried, but I did find this quote:

Rives Audio designed my room and I have had sonic issues with it since the get-go. To insure it is the room and not some component, I have tried 4 pairs of VERY diverse speakers (Dunlavy, Theil, Seaton Sound and RS), 46 bazillion speaker/listening positions, multiple amps, multiple dacs, multiple preamps, power control, wires and cables., as well as room correction of several flavors. NOTHING works to solve the problem.
In his situation, throwing different or better (in terms of speakers) was not going to solve the problem. He only solved it through addressing the room. Which was what I was referring to in the Dennis quote regarding the 80% problem being the room. Certainly speakers are a big factor too, but the room is going to be the big challenge.
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
Are you saying that if a speaker is designed well-enough, it will work well in any room - period?
No. I'm saying, if anything, the opposite: that one should choose a loudspeaker with a coverage pattern that works well for the shape, boundary materials, intended furnishings, etc. of that room. A fairly live room will generally work best with narrower pattern speakers. A more absorptive room will likely need wider-pattern speakers. (All that assumes one's goal is maximizing perceived spaciousness, which studies show is the general preference so long as imaging is not too degraded. If one's goal is laser-focus imaging with minimal hall ambience, then perhaps narrow-throw speakers in an absorptive room is one's ideal. The only way one can determine one's preferences on the focus-spaciousness continuum is to listen to well-designed systems with one or the other trait optimized.)

That is to say, not just "which speaker?" but "which speaker for this room and for my sonic preferences?

Many people simply cannot spare the front- and sidewall-clearance that even the best speakers require for optimal performance.
The main issue with boundary placement, assuming a competently-designed speaker with a fairly constant midrange pattern and low diffraction, is just excess upper bass reinforcement from the boundaries. That happens to be one thing that DSP room correction is very, very good at fixing.

(Incompetently designed speakers have all sorts of issues with boundaries, because their midrange power response is so crappy.)

When some say that carpets, furniture, curtains, etc, should suffice, they are talking about room treatment - intentional, or otherwise.
That is, to some degree, true. However, it doesn't change the fact that dedicated "room treatments" are mostly just band-aids for incompetently-designed loudspeakers.

Actually, I'm surprised to read that you admit that the modal region can be an area requiring help.
Why?

ou believe that "multiple subwoofers well set-up will get one most of the way there"? That's just active room treatment, as opposed to the passive treatment provided by acoustic panels.
That is a valid way of looking at it.

How do you differentiate between "big treatments like lossy false walls" and corner traps?
That's really simple. Consider the size of the wavelengths in question. A 100Hz wave is over 11' long, for instance. What the hell is some little 18" wide pie wedge in the corner supposed to do about that?

Putting a wedge of foam in a corner is easy but pointless. Also, even "bass traps" that are ineffective tend to be larger than the subwoofers needed to smooth the room response would be.)

Buliding lossy pairs of walls (front wall-back wall, etc.) with constrained layer damping is very expensive (both in terms of cost and because it materially reduces the square footage of one's dwelling) and permanent, but has been shown effective in concert with multiple subwoofers. (No "room treatment" works in the bass with a single sub, or two "full-range" mains. Multiple subwoofers are required regardless.)

I still have room modes, and EQ helps, but it doesn't help in the time-domain. That's where the bass traps did help.
That's one thing I don't understand in theory, though I have observed it, too.

Dr. Toole and others have written that correcting FR with EQ fixes the time issues as well. However, I've taken a single subwoofer, EQ'ed it flat...and the system still had pronounced "room boom." But with the addition of two additional subs and proper calibration, the boominess went away. Completely. Before EQ. (Just adjustments of relative level and phase/delay of each of the three subs.) Even though the observed spatial average was (modestly) worse than the single-sub EQ'ed solution. EQ just added some proverbial whipped cream on top.

I say that to say this: Check out how your room sounds, then treat it. ;) I still plan on adding more traps, because I do notice them helping. My main problem isn't level frequency response, it's getting RID of the bass so that the next note is clear.
Multiple subwoofers will do the same thing, but take up a lot less space in the room. May be more expensive, though.

Why should I believe you over Dennis Erskine?

Perhaps you have a white paper or two I could read on how room acoustics play little to any role in the role of sound in a room?
Nobody's claiming that, of course. There are some room things that are very important. For instance, keeping the front wall clear of things like equipment racks or anything else that could cause diffraction. And removing stupid obstructions such as coffee tables from between the loudspeakers and the listening position. Such things are universal improvements, but sadly more people in audiophooldom are "auditioning" wires than losing the coffee table for end tables.

But as an aside I'd also be a little leery of taking on faith what anyone who has a pecuniary interest in a subject has to say about it. Any reasonable person will naturally skew her/his interpretation of data in a direction consistent with that person's self-interest. That's not nefarious, and it's certainly not wrong. It's just human nature.
 
L

Lordhumungus

Audioholic
So how many professional home theaters have you designed from the ground up? And what is your professional background and experience in the industry?

Why should I believe you over Dennis Erskine?

Perhaps you have a white paper or two I could read on how room acoustics play little to any role in the role of sound in a room?
Pardon me for being a technical a-hole, but the statement "the single most important component in any home theater system is the room." is very easily defeated by some simple logic.

If you remove the room from the equation (i.e. have some speakers sitting on the ground somewhere in a field or something) sound is still produced. If you remove the speakers from the equation, this is no longer true. As the obvious goal of a HT is to produce audio, the statement is simply and obviously not true. Maybe out of context it doesn't make as much sense?

Something else that I've realized from reading this thread is that it makes logical sense to me to ALWAYS start with a speaker that is well designed and/or suited for the room it is going to be placed in, regardless of whether or not room treatments are going to be applied. In some of this shall we say spirited debate going on, it sure sounds like some of the pro room treatment folks are not advocating this, which again, makes little sense to me.
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
In some of this shall we say spirited debate going on, it sure sounds like some of the pro room treatment folks are not advocating this, which again, makes little sense to me.
On the contrary, we've been advocating it from the beginning, albeit only the "well designed" portion of your statement. Start with a very good speaker, then treat the room if/as necessary. If the room is the problem, buying a speaker that sounds good in said flawed room is what we're saying is a bad idea, because that could very well mean that you're buying a speaker with flaws to help compensate the room's flaws. It is better to buy an objectively great measuring (and sounding, though that's subjective) speaker, find out how it sounds in the room and finally resolve any room issues/reflections by using treatments if it cannot be resolved by experimenting with placement, toe-in, EQ, etc. The "band-aid" analogy is better applied to the scenario I mentioned above, as even a great speaker will sound bad in a room with poor acoustics. You can fix the room, but doing so by using a speaker with it's own flaws to help mask the room's issues is not wise.
 
A

ack_bak

Audioholic
On the contrary, we've been advocating it from the beginning, albeit only the "well designed" portion of your statement. Start with a very good speaker, then treat the room if/as necessary. If the room is the problem, buying a speaker that sounds good in said flawed room is what we're saying is a bad idea, because that could very well mean that you're buying a speaker with flaws to help compensate the room's flaws. It is better to buy an objectively great measuring (and sounding, though that's subjective) speaker, find out how it sounds in the room and finally resolve any room issues/reflections by using treatments if it cannot be resolved by experimenting with placement, toe-in, EQ, etc. The "band-aid" analogy is better applied to the scenario I mentioned above, as even a great speaker will sound bad in a room with poor acoustics. You can fix the room, but doing so by using a speaker with it's own flaws to help mask the room's issues is not wise.
This...

With the caveat that if you are building a home theater/audio room, it is best to enlist the services of a professional beforehand. Or do a lot of reading on the acoustic forums :) You can build the room treatments right into your design and many of these guys can assist you with which types/brands of speakers to buy based on your preferences and expectations.
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
This...

With the caveat that if you are building a home theater/audio room, it is best to enlist the services of a professional beforehand. Or do a lot of reading on the acoustic forums :) You can build the room treatments right into your design and many of these guys can assist you with which types/brands of speakers to buy based on your preferences and expectations.
Bingo. This is the ideal scenario.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
To quote Dennis Erskine:
The assumption being made there, is that the sound introduced by the room is inherently flawed.

It's not. That's not how we hear.

No it's not. The single most important component in any home theater system is the speakers.
+1

Give me great speakers + mediocre room over mediocre speakers + great room, any day.

So how many professional home theaters have you designed from the ground up?
Of course if you can design a neutral room from the ground up, it's a commendable goal. But that doesn't mean:

"
Very, very good speakers in a poor room are going to sound bad.
"
is a valid statement.

And what is your professional background and experience in the industry?
He owns Revel Salon 2s and Linkwitz Orions in an untreated room. Better speakers than 99% of this thread owns or possibly even has heard. A worse room than the treatment advocates likely have. Do you guys honestly think he's getting worse sound with his Salons than the treatment guys would be getting splitting the invested money between speakers and treatments?

Why should I believe you over Dennis Erskine?
Who has more $$$ to gain from leading you in one direction??

Perhaps you have a white paper or two I could read on how room acoustics play little to any role in the role of sound in a room?
Room acoustics do play a role of the sound in a room.

The questions at play are

1) What is a typical room?
2) When is does this typical room have a negative impact on sound quality??
3) Does the atypical room have a negative impact on sound quality? Where do treated rooms fall into this?
4) Is 100% room reconstruction surgery practical for a living room, which is where most people listen?
5) Does a speaker which does not negatively illuminate the room, make a so-called poor room sound poor, or is this something the marketing companies want you to think?
6) Do typical audiophile "acoustic panels" improve, or actually imbalance sound that is heard?

In his situation, throwing different or better (in terms of speakers) was not going to solve the problem. He only solved it through addressing the room. Which was what I was referring to in the Dennis quote regarding the 80% problem being the room. Certainly speakers are a big factor too, but the room is going to be the big challenge.
Oh? Is this because the room sounded poor/innaccurate, or the room did not sounds like he (clearly a biased audiophile) wanted it to sound (like a treated room)?

Just because the room will change the sound, does not mean that there is a reference for how a room SHOULD sound. If this does not exist, then what do you define as a good room? A bad room?

Yes there's neutral rooms, but there's no guarantee they are preferred either for one's listening habits. Since the room + good speakers will not change timbre, neutral rooms aren't necessarily more accurate. This boils down to the recording.

Nuance said:
as even a great speaker will sound bad in a room with poor acoustics.
This adage is repeated constantly. Yet that's not the conclusion a lot of rather prominent people, including Dr. Sean Olive, seem to suggest. What is a room with poor acoustics and actually how likely is it above the shroeder frequency, to be someone here's actual room?

Are monopole speakers actually even desirable in real life rooms below the shroeder frequency? If not, then can you plausibly qualify any monopole speaker as a great speaker?
 
Last edited:
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
So how many professional home theaters have you designed from the ground up? And what is your professional background and experience in the industry?

Why should I believe you over Dennis Erskine?

Perhaps you have a white paper or two I could read on how room acoustics play little to any role in the role of sound in a room?
What? You don't agree with my equation? Perhaps I should simplify the equation for you.

% of room sound = BS^2

Or do you have another equation that shows the 80% figure?:eek:
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
Give me great speakers + mediocre room over mediocre speakers + great room, any day.
Indeed, though I'd say speakers well-matched to the design of that particular room.

This adage ["as even a great speaker will sound bad in a room with poor acoustics."] is repeated constantly. Yet that's not the conclusion a lot of rather prominent people, including Dr. Sean Olive, seem to suggest.***
Exactly.

For that matter, Dr. Toole's name gets bandied about as if it were going out of style by some posters. Why am I not surprised that name-dropping correlates so poorly with recognition of what he wrote in his book?

Dr. Floyd Toole said:
11.3.1 A Massive Test with Some Thought-Provoking Results
Olive et al. (1995) published results of an elaborate test in which three loud- speakers were subjectively evaluated in four different rooms. Figure 11.2 [omitted] shows the rooms and the arrangements within them. The rest of this section is based on the account in Toole (2006).
In the first experiment, called the “live” test, listeners completed the evalu- ation of the three loudspeakers in one room before moving to the next one. The loudspeakers were all forward-firing cone/dome configurations, with similar directivities[*] and similarly good performance, so it was not an obvious matter to make sound quality judgments. It was also a situation in which differences might have been masked by differences in room dimensions, loudspeaker location, or placement of acoustical materials.

[figure 11.2 omitted]

Binaural recordings were made of each loudspeaker in each location in each room, and the tests were repeated, only this time with listeners hearing all of the sounds through calibrated headphones. All tests were double blind. In each room, three loudspeakers were evaluated in three locations for each of three programs. The whole process was repeated, resulting in 54 ratings for each of the 20 listeners. These were the results from a statistical perspective:
- “Loudspeaker” was highly significant: p = 0.05.
- “Room” was not a significant factor.
- The results of live and binaural tests were essentially the same.
***
Then, using the same binaural recordings *** another experiment was conducted. In this, the loudspeakers were compared with themselves and each other when located in each of the loudspeaker positions in each of the four rooms. Thus, in this experiment, the sound of the room was combined with the sound of the loud- speaker in randomized presentations that did not permit listeners to adapt. These were the results:
-“Room” became the highly significant variable: p = 0.001.
-“Loudspeaker” was not a significant factor.
It appears, therefore, that we can acclimatize to our listening environment to such an extent that we are able to listen through it to appreciate qualities intrinsic to the sound sources themselves. It is as if we can separate the sound of a spectrum that is changing (the sounds from the different loudspeakers) from that which is fixed (the colorations added by the room itself for the specific listener and loudspeaker locations within it). This appears to be related to the spectral compensation effect noted by Watkins (1991, 1999) and Watkins and Makin (1996).
Sound Reproduction, at 177-8.

*I suspect someone is going to say how this passage contradicts what I've been writing about directivity. A careful reader, however, will note that my claims are entirely out of the scope of the described tests, and vice versa, because all of the speakers used threw similar patterns. "Directivity" was simply not one of the variables under test.

Are monopole speakers actually even desirable in real life rooms below the shroeder frequency?
Yes, if you have enough of 'em. :)

Wait. Is that outside? So technically, it's not really a room, is it? So he has lost 80% of the sound already.:eek::D
Or, to think about it another way, he has the best possible bass traps. :)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
BTW Psbfan, have you auditioned any more speakers?

Next time you audition speakers and they don't use acoustic panels, bass traps, and diffusers (like they do in every room at the Rocky Mountain Audiofest and trade shows), don't even bother listening to those speakers since you are only listening to 20% of the sound anyway.:eek::D
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Yes, if you have enough of 'em. :)
Maybe if your shroeder frequency is below 100hz.

Most peoples' are closer to 400hz or such.

Which leaves almost two octaves of response where monopoles are hopeless.
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
Maybe if your shroeder frequency is below 100hz.

Most peoples' are closer to 400hz or such.

Which leaves almost two octaves of response where monopoles are hopeless.
That's a bit strong. I've posted these in-room measurements before, but they're worth considering again:

KEF Q900's, prior to room correction, in Prof. Kal Rubinson's room:


Revel Ultima Studio2 in Dr. Fred Kaplan's room (red trace):


Revel Ultima Studio2 in John Atkinson's and Larry Greenhill's rooms:


(Do you know of other such published measurements, so I don't have to constantly repeat these?)

Note that the big, offensive swings are generally below 200Hz. (And as an aside, the speaker that is the exception, the Verity Audio Sarastro II in Dr. Kaplan's room, is a bipole in the offending region.) Which suggests that the only thing going cardoid or dipole is going to do is create placement headaches.

Those graphs do lend support to my position that too many people are throwing away upper-bass fidelity by crossing their subs over too low, and not overlapping them with their mains, though. And by using subwoofers that compromise on something very useful (upper-bass response) for something of debatable at best perceptual value (2d order distortion in very low frequencies)...
 
Last edited:
psbfan9

psbfan9

Audioholic Samurai
BTW Psbfan, have you auditioned any more speakers?
Yes. See below...:D

Note to self: The next time you audition speakers, keep that sh!t to yourself...:D
I went back to the other shop and listened to the Monitor Audio Silver RX6 and the RX8. I liked them much better this time. The RX6 are $1200.00 pr. black or rosenut unfinished wood grain and the RX8's are $1500.00 for the same options. I could not tell much of a difference between the two speakers even though the 8's have the extra woofer. So I listened to 6's more. I really liked them. They imaged well the highs were not harsh and the bass was sufficient.

Thinking about the price of the MA RX6's, I've decided to look closer at EMP. They also make RBH which from I what I have read are very impressive. I'm going to call tomorrow and speak with them to see if there is any trickle down technology from RBH to the EMP's.. I'm looking at the E55Ti towers on sale now for $636.00 pr in the gloss red burl.

EMP Tek E55Ti Tower Speakers--March Madness Sale 3/2012
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top