Sound signatures in integrated amps?

[KEW]

Yes, some high end gear is garbage that works far worse than most very modestly priced gear. Take a look at this:

http://stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/704wavac/

Measurements:

http://stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/704wavac/index5.html

$350,000 buys you, in this case, performance far worse than you could get for relatively little money. The ultra high end is filled with garbage. The ultra high end is literally for people with more money than sense.


Notice, the differences between such an amplifier and other amplifiers is easily measured. If all measurements were the same (and are sufficiently extensive), then you are not going to hear any difference.

I wonder how they managed to get such a bad result. It seems like it would be easier to have normal sound and it seems like if the manufacturer knew what the freq resp curve would look like, they would not send it to a magazine that actually tests it!

 

[wire]

I wonder how they managed to get such a bad result. It seems like it would be easier to have normal sound and it seems like if the manufacturer knew what the freq resp curve would look like, they would not send it to a magazine that actually tests it!

Maybe try something like this http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1293590109&/Onix-SP3-Melody-mk-II-Unopened , if your take your time , you can pick one up for around $500 to 600 and add one of these to open up the sound stage http://cgi.ebay.com/Carver-C-9-Sonic-Hologram-Generator-/260688451861?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb23e1915
The midrange and highs are very good . I run mine without a sub .

 

[Pyrrho]

And, I just love this comment in that write up
This rolloff will be audible, but is not that important.
LOL not important.

I guess they could not afford a better design.

That is the result of not wanting to offend advertisers, and also the fact that they are used to dealing with overpriced things, with the accompanying belief in magical properties. (They listen to wires and review them. Enough said.) So the magic of the amplifiers overcome actual performance problems. The believers in magic always prefer using their ears to decide instead of using their brains.

 

[Pyrrho]

I wonder how they managed to get such a bad result. It seems like it would be easier to have normal sound and it seems like if the manufacturer knew what the freq resp curve would look like, they would not send it to a magazine that actually tests it!

It is a way of actually making it sound different from the competition. Usually, such claims of superior sound in an amplifier are pure BS (when both are operated within their design parameters [i.e., with appropriate impedance loads, not overdriving the amplifier, etc.]), but in this case, it really does sound different from other amplifiers. And if you like this difference, it is "better". Of course, if you want an amplifier that does not audibly alter the sound, then it is terrible.

 

[KEW]

It is a way of actually making it sound different from the competition. Usually, such claims of superior sound in an amplifier are pure BS (when both are operated within their design parameters [i.e., with appropriate impedance loads, not overdriving the amplifier, etc.]), but in this case, it really does sound different from other amplifiers. And if you like this difference, it is "better". Of course, if you want an amplifier that does not audibly alter the sound, then it is terrible.

I guess it may well seem "better" on a cello concerto, where you might hear some nuance which is normally masked by upper register instruments, and at $350,000, you might assume a superior product. It would suck when you got home with it to listen to a trumpet or flute sonata or some guitar work!!!

 

[GranteedEV]

I guess it may well seem "better" on a cello concerto, where you might hear some nuance which is normally masked by upper register instruments, and at $350,000, you might assume a superior product. It would suck when you got home with it to listen to a trumpet or flute sonata or some guitar work!!!

for 350,000 I could get a live gig inside my house.

 

[PENG]

It is a way of actually making it sound different from the competition. Usually, such claims of superior sound in an amplifier are pure BS (when both are operated within their design parameters [i.e., with appropriate impedance loads, not overdriving the amplifier, etc.]), but in this case, it really does sound different from other amplifiers. And if you like this difference, it is "better". Of course, if you want an amplifier that does not audibly alter the sound, then it is terrible.

Regarding BS, there is nothing funnier than posts that talked about how their amps (presumably amps that amplify the signals faithfully and linearly) provided much better sound stage than other amps. I always thought sound stage is mostly influenced by speakers, the overall room acoustics and of course the source recording itself.

 

[ski2xblack]

So KEW, did you take advantage of the chance to hear the Audio Note single ended amp while you were there? It seems that most on this forum would bash such an approach on principle rather than actually listening to one and judging for themselves. I would be curious to hear your first hand experience. (I would understand if you did not, as that was nowhere near your original goal.)

Peng- a no nfb, extremely simple single ended circuit actually does image better. Try one for yourself and see. (They do have severe technical limitations, I won't deny that, but they do have their charms as well.)

 

[KEW]

So KEW, did you take advantage of the chance to hear the Audio Note single ended amp while you were there? It seems that most on this forum would bash such an approach on principle rather than actually listening to one and judging for themselves. I would be curious to hear your first hand experience. (I would understand if you did not, as that was nowhere near your original goal.)

I listened on both the Naim and the Audio Note. I think it is safe that 10 Watts was plenty in his 10X12X8 (960 cu ft) room. The sound was good in both cases. I could not distinguish a difference. Understand I'm not saying there was no difference, I'm saying that listening to one, then taking 5 minutes to move around the connections before listening to the other, nothing slapped me in the face, and I'm not going to speculate on whether I noticed a difference without a better comparison.
While he had treatments in the room, and it did sound impressive for a tiny room, I do believe it was a poor room for auditioning. However, if I had speakers side by side with a fast switch, I could still make relative judgements - in this case, whether the time coherence gave more impact to an attack.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... I'm saying that listening to one, then taking 5 minutes to move around the connections before listening to the other, ...

That time lag is certainly detrimental to audio memory for differences.

Were you able to level match the units? That too is critical.

 

[mtrycrafts]

..
Peng- a no nfb, extremely simple single ended circuit actually does image better. ...

Can you explain why that would be technically? Imaging is mostly due to speakers, room acoustics and the recording, hardly because of components. You should really do some DBT listening comparisons. Not all experiences created equal or has equal merit.

 

[PENG]

Peng- a no nfb, extremely simple single ended circuit actually does image better. Try one for yourself and see. (They do have severe technical limitations, I won't deny that, but they do have their charms as well.)

If that's your experience I am going to respect that but I do have difficulties in understand why it would image better. I assume most popular amps are designed by electronic/audio engineers, not artists. Their goal is to design and build amps that simply amplify the signal faithfully and then it will be up to the transducers (speakers) and the room to actually reproduce the sound from the amplified electrical signal. So how the heck can they make one amp image better or "throw" a better sound stage? What would be the governing parameters and specs for image and sound stage?

Now if sound processing is involved, then almost anything is possible.

 

[GranteedEV]

If that's your experience I am going to respect that but I do have difficulties in understand why it would image better. I assume most popular amps are designed by electronic/audio engineers, not artists. Their goal is to design and build amps that simply amplify the signal faithfully and then it will be up to the transducers (speakers) and the room to actually reproduce the sound from the amplified electrical signal. So how the heck can they make one amp image better or "throw" a better sound stage? What would be the governing parameters and specs for image and sound stage?

Now if sound processing is involved, then almost anything is possible.

AFAIK An amp can image better if it has superior channel separation (a measured and varying stat).

The next one is just a guess but:

An amp can possibly have a better soundstage if it's got a lower noise floor AKA blacker background - this allows some ambient details pertaining to a soundstage to be more defined. Then again, I've always had difficulty really grasping the psychoacoustic concept of a soundstage. I know it's there, but I can't really explain it anyways.

 

[PENG]

AFAIK An amp can image better if it has superior channel separation (a measured and varying stat).

The next one is just a guess but:

An amp can possibly have a better soundstage if it's got a lower noise floor AKA blacker background - this allows some ambient details pertaining to a soundstage to be more defined. Then again, I've always had difficulty really grasping the psychoacoustic concept of a soundstage. I know it's there, but I can't really explain it anyways.

Now you are talking in language that I can understand. The fact is, most popular mid range amps are not going to have trouble in terms of "superior" channel separation (some are dual monos anyway). To say one images better and throws a better sound stage due to it's "superior" channel separation, is like saying one amp sounds better due to it's "superior" FR that extends to 50,000 Hz +/- 0 dB when it is a known fact that normal human being (except new borns) cannot hear anything beyond 20,000 Hz and a good % of the population wouldn't even know the difference if you filtered out anything above 15 kHz.

I do believe that in many cases it is mainly Placebo at work. More and more now I simply focus on enjoying the music itself and try not to think too much about those superior specs that may be missing from my system.

 

[GranteedEV]

Now you are talking in language that I can understand. The fact is, most popular mid range amps are not going to have trouble in terms of "superior" channel separation (some are dual monos anyway). To say one images better and throws a better sound stage due to it's "superior" channel separation, is like saying one amp sounds better due to it's "superior" FR that extends to 50,000 Hz +/- 0 dB when it is a known fact that normal human being (except new borns) cannot hear anything beyond 20,000 Hz and a good % of the population wouldn't even know the difference if you filtered out anything above 15 kHz.

I do believe that in many cases it is mainly Placebo at work. More and more now I simply focus on enjoying the music itself and try not to think too much about those superior specs that may be missing from my system.

Well, I lean towards these differences in noise being audible maybe not clearly and conciously but enough so that it could change our perception - however....

My opinion is that although they may be audible, they'd far be overshadowed by ambient noise like cars driving by nearby, furnace sounds, refridgerators, etc. I assume they'd be worthwhile in a properly deadened, blocked, and sealed room. In a sense, a noise floor is worthless if your home theater is competing with the ambient noise of real life.

But for that guy living at an abandoned prison in the middle of nowhere... ?

 

[KEW]

That time lag is certainly detrimental to audio memory for differences.

Were you able to level match the units? That too is critical.

No, there was no way to really tell. I meant to grab my ratshack meter and forgot. Usually I match levels by listening to music when I have an instantaneous switch between speakers, but I intended to bring the meter in case switching using two different remotes didn't work cleanly.

 

[KEW]

My opinion is that although they may be audible, they'd far be overshadowed by ambient noise like cars driving by nearby, furnace sounds, refridgerators, etc. I assume they'd be worthwhile in a properly deadened, blocked, and sealed room. In a sense, a noise floor is worthless if your home theater is competing with the ambient noise of real life.

But for that guy living at an abandoned prison in the middle of nowhere... ?

Do any meters measure into the low range? I would like to measure the noise floor of my room, but thr RS meter only measures down to something like 60db.

 

[mtrycrafts]

No, there was no way to really tell. I meant to grab my ratshack meter and forgot. Usually I match levels by listening to music when I have an instantaneous switch between speakers, but I intended to bring the meter in case switching using two different remotes didn't work cleanly.

Thanks. But, remember, spl meters are not good enough to get a good measure of levels especially if you use music as the measure and running. A pure single tone would be better and a voltmeter at the speaker with a single frequency tone the ideal as that would or could get you to the required .1dB needed so that level differences is not an issue.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... More and more now I simply focus on enjoying the music itself and try not to think too much about those superior specs that may be missing from my system.

But then, I doubt you are using SETs in your setup

 

[ski2xblack]

Can you explain why that would be technically? Imaging is mostly due to speakers, room acoustics and the recording, hardly because of components. You should really do some DBT listening comparisons. Not all experiences created equal or has equal merit.

1. Subtle timing cues are smeared when nfb is used in a circuit.

2. In nature sounds are richly embedded with even order harmonics. A single ended circuit is more adept at reproducing the harmonic structure of live music and real sounds. A p/p or class AB amp is less adept at reproducing the natural harmonic structures, and squashes whatever distortion exists out to much higher order at lower levels, something that just doesn't exist in nature and is perceived as artificial.

3. Low order harmonics are involved with human perception of the acoustic space of a performance (or reproduction).

These could be completely off base, feel free to tear 'em to shreds. (And thanks to all for the lively and civil discussion!)