Sound Quality

[RickC3C4]

I am interested in comments regarding the sound quality aspects of midpriced (less than $1000) receivers. Specifically I'm looking at Onkyo, Pioneer and Yamaha. I'm not going to list model numbers because I don't want this to be another "which model receiver should I get" post. Plus the model numbers aren't important as I can find a model in any of these brands with the connections and features I need.

 

[zumbo]

Ther is no majic answer. It boils down to the flavor of the day. Many of us are good at finding the best features for the best price. But, basically, an $800 receiver will sound like an $800 receiver. The features/options needed for x amount will decide the flavor of the day.

 

[Seth=L]

I am interested in comments regarding the sound quality aspects of midpriced (less than $1000) receivers. Specifically I'm looking at Onkyo, Pioneer and Yamaha. I'm not going to list model numbers because I don't want this to be another "which model receiver should I get" post. Plus the model numbers aren't important as I can find a model in any of these brands with the connections and features I need.

General things to consider when comparing the sound signature of the receivers you listed. Yamaha is very straight forward and has a very good reputation for having the proper amount of power for the job. The have a pretty even sound, at least to my ears

Onkyo is brighter than the Yamaha, but still very foward. I have noticed they could improve the power. I think they try to skimp a little on power to offer more features and overall value than the competition. The bass could also be a tad better.

Pioneer, specifically Elite, has a warmer sound, but still very good on the low end. Elite has nice looking receivers and solid construction. I wish I still had my Elite but oh well.

In all seriousness, it all comes down to the speakers being used and what fits your criteria. The differences aren't astronomical, but none the less choosing the right one will balance your system. If you have Klipsch, Pioneer would probably be a wise choice. If you have a duller sounding speaker with heavier bass, maybe Onkyo. If you have fairly even sounding speakers, Yamaha or Denon, you get the point.

 

[zumbo]

In all seriousness, it all comes down to the speakers being used and what fits your criteria. The differences aren't astronomical, but none the less choosing the right one will balance your system. If you have Klipsch, Pioneer would probably be a wise choice. If you have a duller sounding speaker with heavier bass, maybe Onkyo. If you have fairly even sounding speakers, Yamaha or Denon, you get the point.

BS

I just don't buy it. I know there are people that do, but I don't. If you compare any of the mentioned brands with equal power, they will sound very similar. VERY.

 

[j_garcia]

It isn't the amp section that gives a certain brand their "sound", it is the whole package. AMPS can sound different, but not night and day different, so if we were talking about amps only, I would agree, but the associated packaging, processing, circuitry, etc... in a receiver do have an influence on the way your system sounds. I agree, there is no magic answer, so one simply has to go listen to the specific items one is interested in. When comparing receivers that all have basically the same features and similar specs, there is no good answer.

 

[RickC3C4]

Thanks Seth, these are the kind of comments I'm looking for. I am using Klipsch speakers, I'm using their reference series in-wall speakers.

Front L/R -- R-5800-W (8" woofer/1" tweeter)
Center -- R-5650-W (6.5" woofer/1" tweeter)
Surround -- CDT-5650-C (6.5" woofer/1" tweeter)
Sub -- RW-12D (12" woofer)

I am leaning towards the Pioneer/Pioneer Elite but mostly because I have a pair of Pioneer 300 disc DVD changers and I like things to match. I like a nice extended high-end though I do prefer an overall warm sound. I'm currently using an Onkyo which I'm happy with though not thrilled with.

 

[Seth=L]

BS

I just don't buy it. I know there are people that do, but I don't. If you compare any of the mentioned brands with equal power, they will sound very similar. VERY.

I said nothing about the amplifier affecting the sound. I have owned all brands of receivers that are mentioned here and I can honestly say that the preamps in these receivers sound different.

 

[Seth=L]

Thanks Seth, these are the kind of comments I'm looking for. I am using Klipsch speakers, I'm using their reference series in-wall speakers.

Front L/R -- R-5800-W (8" woofer/1" tweeter)
Center -- R-5650-W (6.5" woofer/1" tweeter)
Surround -- CDT-5650-C (6.5" woofer/1" tweeter)
Sub -- RW-12D (12" woofer)

I am leaning towards the Pioneer/Pioneer Elite but mostly because I have a pair of Pioneer 300 disc DVD changers and I like things to match. I like a nice extended high-end though I do prefer an overall warm sound. I'm currently using an Onkyo which I'm happy with though not thrilled with.

If you get the Pioneer Elite please let us know if it takes the edge of the Klipsch, they are very forward. The best way to find out is to try it.

 

[RickC3C4]

That's why I rely on experience in forum such as this one, because just trying it can get very expensive.

 

[zumbo]

I said nothing about the amplifier affecting the sound. I have owned all brands of receivers that are mentioned here and I can honestly say that the preamps in these receivers sound different.

I didn't say anything about the amp either. I said, "If you compare any of the mentioned brands with equal power, they will sound very similar. VERY."

When you own a receiver, and replace it with another one, you usually go up in quality and power. So your new one will sound better.
Also, receivers get better every year. So, it is very possible that the replacement model equal to the last model from the same manufacturer will sound better.

Let me say this so I am understood. If the choice is between Pioneer/Onkyo/Yamaha/Denon of equal power with the features needed, and one is $50 or more less than the others, then get it.

I do agree with components matching. It doesn't matter, but I do think it looks better.

And just for the record, I wouldn't get an Onkyo. Been there. Pioneer seems to be giving it one hell-of-a shot. Should be considered. Yamaha and Denon are my favorites, with a slight edge to Yamaha. It does depend on the price though.

 

[moverton]

That's why I rely on experience in forum such as this one, because just trying it can get very expensive.

any decent audio shop will let you borrow something to try with your system.

 

[zumbo]

any decent audio shop will let you borrow something to try with your system.

Best advice yet!

 

[RickC3C4]

I never thought of borrowing the equipment but we're not talking about a DVD player here. With a satellite receiver/DVR, a SACD/DVD-A player, 2x 300 disc DVD changers, a VCR/DVD player, a plasma television and six speakers that's A LOT of wiring and connections to be swapping back and forth.

 

[moverton]

I said nothing about the amplifier affecting the sound. I have owned all brands of receivers that are mentioned here and I can honestly say that the preamps in these receivers sound different.

This is actually a very interesting question. I would love to hear from Clint or one of the other reviewers about this.
It seems to me that these receivers should sound almost identical. What is the distortion rating for if not for ensuring that input=output. If one receiver or another sounds different, then at least one of them is distorting.

I can completely understand how some amps can't handle large transients above thier rated power but within rated power they should sound identical.
I usually write off reviewer comments like "it sounds brighter/more forward/whatever" to different speaker types, hookup, placement, or how much coffee the guy drank.

I would love to hear from the experts (real experts) on this subject. I think it might drop out a lot of b.s. from the debate/analysis on amps a receivers.

If distortion ratings are not measuring this then they are a problem.

 

[InTheIndustry]

Not a very hot answer.....

From experience I can tell you that most any mainstream (Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, HK, etc.) receiver sounds the same as the others at a given price point. In the upper upper end of the scale there can be a bit of a difference, but that is dependant on taste. To be a receiver connoisseur is like being the connoisseur of fast food. Is a Big Bacon Classic different than a Whopper? Well, yeah, but they are essentially the same thing (I prefer the Big Bacon Classic by the way) in the same market space. Anyone who tries to sell you on different is just trying to sell you on different. One year, one brand will have the fresh new hot product and technology, the next year it's another, and the year after that another. Flip a coin, then hold your breath.

Yamaha is the absolute KING of frilly nonsense on a receiver with all of the DSP modes (who actually uses all of those?) they throw on there. Keep in mind, though, that all of the mainstream brands have funky named proprietary processing of some sort.

I will tell you from extensive experience with both brands that you can straight up absolutely hear a difference between a $1000 THX Select Onkyo and an entry level $800 NAD. The NAD product sounds a lot better and is $200 less... on the surface. While it has better sound than the Onkyo, you know what it doesn't have? HDMI switching, up-converting to component video (it only has 2 component video inputs) from composite or s-vid, THX certification, and a lot of marketing dollars behind it. That's why I said that it's cheaper... on the surface. Take that stuff away from the Onkyo and I guarantee you its price point plummets down past the NAD. Two companies competing with two different sets of values. And neither of them is wrong, really. It just comes down to what you need/want in a product.

By the way, while I like NAD and recommend it to people looking only for high end sound out of a receiver on a budget; I usually sell Marantz receivers to my customers. I think they offer the best compromise between great sound, price, and features like HDMI switching. As for separates are concerned, I don't do NAD anymore because I hate making customers pay for inferior video switching. I use Parasound, which most models don't have video switching, and sell the customer a nice video scaling product.

Bottom line, you can't go wrong with any of the brands you listed. Pick the one that fits your budget the best and enjoy.

 

[skizzerflake]

I would love to hear from the experts (real experts) on this subject. I think it might drop out a lot of b.s. from the debate/analysis on amps a receivers.

If distortion ratings are not measuring this then they are a problem.

I would be presuming to consider myself as an expert, much less a real expert, but one of the things to consider here is the question of the software vs the amp. HT receivers all subject incoming signals (whether analog or digital) to signal processing. Sound fields, equalization, switching, etc, all happens digitally, except when the unit has something like Yamaha's "Straight Stereo" mode, which goes right the the amp.

I have heard receivers who used what is supposed to be the same processing, eg, Dolby Prologic II, but got quite different results. Coupled with all of the settings these boxes allow (room size, reverb, time delay, etc), you might get a unit with a neutral amping ability that is changed considerably by the software and settings. My guess is that generally, you will find that actual amplification is pretty similar but you should evaluate all of those settings to see how the unit sounds to you. This makes is all immeasurably more complicated. If you know somebody who has receivers like the ones you are considering, you can fool around with all these settings and get a feel for which ones you like.

 

[Nick250]

Let's get back to the basics. Compared to speaker choice, the room and room treatments, the receiver is barely a blip on the sound quality radar. It's not worthy of this much attention fer crying out loud. You CAN NOT tune the sound in your room by receiver choice. Get the receiver that has the features you want in your price range and move on to things that actually matter!

Nick

 

[moverton]

Let's get back to the basics. Compared to speaker choice, the room and room treatments, the receiver is barely a blip on the sound quality radar. It's not worthy of this much attention fer crying out loud. You CAN NOT tune the sound in your room by receiver choice. Get the receiver that has the features you want in your price range and move on to things that actually matter!

Nick

I agree completely. That's one reason I hate to see people spend $2000 on a receiver and $300 on speakers. Just trying to shed some light on the larger situation.

More interesting to me is this...
The whole current audio paradigm is broken. Trying to reproduce sound without a feedback loop is a fool's errand. You spend $10000 getting the signal reproduced perfectly and then send it through an electromagnet connected to a paper cone (or variants thereof) and bounce it off walls, ceilings, etc and somehow expect it to survive intact. It was 99.9% correct at the speaker input terminal and then got bounced off a funhouse mirror.
Until we place a microphone at the listening position and feedback error correction, we will never get this right and will spend enormous amounts of money doing it.

 

[evilkat]

I gotta agree with Nick too! So long as your THDs look good, and your power per channel seems reasonable, then really, all you want from your receiver are addtional frill features....at least this is how I viewed buying a receiver when I was hunting around!

To be honest, I've heard only 3 diff receivers before deciding on mine, and the setups were so different there was no way in hell I could tell what the receiver was contributing to sound quality!

 

[markw]

Well said.

Let's get back to the basics. Compared to speaker choice, the room and room treatments, the receiver is barely a blip on the sound quality radar. It's not worthy of this much attention fer crying out loud. You CAN NOT tune the sound in your room by receiver choice. Get the receiver that has the features you want in your price range and move on to things that actually matter!

Nick

What more can I say?