Some More Onkyo 8555 Questions I Thought Of...

[PearlcorderS701]

If this unit is just a stereo receiver, why does Onkyo give the option for changing the volume readout between "relative" and "absolute"? Wouldn't this strictly be for THX-certified home theater surround AVRs? What would the benefit be of offering a "relative" volume scale on a two-channel unit? I run the receiver in "absolute" mode, but I was just curious...

Also -- the TX-8555 has a sub pre out, so if I wanted to add a sub, how does the receiver know where to cross over the frequency? I have read that Onkyo confirms this unit crosses the speakers over at 80Hz in this model -- but is there some way to "set" that in the unit itself? I don't see it mentioned anywhere in the manual...

With surround AVRs, the crossover menu is obvious and readily accessible, due to the straight nature of surround audio and varying channels; but on this stereo receiver, how does the unit "know" to cross over the bass to the sub and at what frequency? Does it just do it automatically when the pre out is sensed (that an RCA lead is connected to it)?

 

[bandphan]

You have had the unit long enough, we should be asking you the questions about it

 

[MDS]

If this unit is just a stereo receiver, why does Onkyo give the option for changing the volume readout between "relative" and "absolute"? Wouldn't this strictly be for THX-certified home theater surround AVRs? What would the benefit be of offering a "relative" volume scale on a two-channel unit? I run the receiver in "absolute" mode, but I was just curious...

Same benefit as for a surround receiver. Once calibrated to a known level it is easier to tell at a glance what the output level is.

Also -- the TX-8555 has a sub pre out, so if I wanted to add a sub, how does the receiver know where to cross over the frequency? I have read that Onkyo confirms this unit crosses the speakers over at 80Hz in this model -- but is there some way to "set" that in the unit itself? I don't see it mentioned anywhere in the manual...

If there are no menu options to select a xover frequency, then the unit uses a fixed xover - typically 80 Hz but some older surround AVRs with fixed xovers used 90 Hz.

With surround AVRs, the crossover menu is obvious and readily accessible, due to the straight nature of surround audio and varying channels; but on this stereo receiver, how does the unit "know" to cross over the bass to the sub and at what frequency? Does it just do it automatically when the pre out is sensed (that an RCA lead is connected to it)?

Is there a speaker setup menu that allows you to tell the receiver whether you are using 2 speakers or 2 speakers plus a sub?

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Same benefit as for a surround receiver. Once calibrated to a known level it is easier to tell at a glance what the output level is.

This doesn't make sense -- a stereo receiver doesn't need to be "calibrated" unless I'm missing something...there are no calibration setup procedures for a 2-channel device like this, so I don't know why there is a "relative" volume setup option...perhaps I need to e-mail Onk on this one...

If there are no menu options to select a xover frequency, then the unit uses a fixed xover - typically 80 Hz but some older surround AVRs with fixed xovers used 90 Hz.

No, there are no menu options to select a crossover frequency...

Is there a speaker setup menu that allows you to tell the receiver whether you are using 2 speakers or 2 speakers plus a sub?

No -- and that's what I was curious about, as to why there is no menu option fo this, being that there's a sub pre out...

 

[MDS]

This doesn't make sense -- a stereo receiver doesn't need to be "calibrated" unless I'm missing something...there are no calibration setup procedures for a 2-channel device like this, so I don't know why there is a "relative" volume setup option...perhaps I need to e-mail Onk on this one...

Why not? Calibration simply means that you adjust channel levels so that a given level of input tone results in a given output SPL. Now if the stereo receiver doesn't have channel trims, then it's true there would be no way to calibrate anything.

What is the scale for the relative volume display? Is it -something to +something (greater than zero) or is it -something to 0?

If the latter (ends at zero) then '0' is the maximum (ie zero attenuation) and the negative number represents how far you are below maximum.

Look at it this way: If the absolute scale is 0 to 100 and the volume is at 80, then the receiver is at 80% of max. Likewise, if the relative display is -100 to 0 and the display is at -20, then it is also at 80% of maximum.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Why not? Calibration simply means that you adjust channel levels so that a given level of input tone results in a given output SPL. Now if the stereo receiver doesn't have channel trims, then it's true there would be no way to calibrate anything.

What is the scale for the relative volume display? Is it -something to +something (greater than zero) or is it -something to 0?

If the latter (ends at zero) then '0' is the maximum (ie zero attenuation) and the negative number represents how far you are below maximum.

Look at it this way: If the absolute scale is 0 to 100 and the volume is at 80, then the receiver is at 80% of max. Likewise, if the relative display is -100 to 0 and the display is at -20, then it is also at 80% of maximum.

But the stereo receiver doesn't have channel trims......

 

[TLS Guy]

If this unit is just a stereo receiver, why does Onkyo give the option for changing the volume readout between "relative" and "absolute"? Wouldn't this strictly be for THX-certified home theater surround AVRs? What would the benefit be of offering a "relative" volume scale on a two-channel unit? I run the receiver in "absolute" mode, but I was just curious...

Also -- the TX-8555 has a sub pre out, so if I wanted to add a sub, how does the receiver know where to cross over the frequency? I have read that Onkyo confirms this unit crosses the speakers over at 80Hz in this model -- but is there some way to "set" that in the unit itself? I don't see it mentioned anywhere in the manual...

With surround AVRs, the crossover menu is obvious and readily accessible, due to the straight nature of surround audio and varying channels; but on this stereo receiver, how does the unit "know" to cross over the bass to the sub and at what frequency? Does it just do it automatically when the pre out is sensed (that an RCA lead is connected to it)?

I have looked at the owners manual. I have to say that unit does not really make up its mind what it wants to be. It seems neither fish, foul nor good red herring.

As to your questions. On the volume there is a setting to limit power output to a level you set. This is presumably to help prevent damage to speakers if the input units a on the hot side.

Direct Mode defeats the tone controls. Pure mode defeats the tone controls and switches off the video circuits.

The sub issue is not addressed except for connections. I would be certain the stereo speakers are always full range and there is no high pass crossover to them.

It is not stated that there is a crossover to the sub out, but I suspect there is. If there is a low pass crossover, frequency and order are not specified, which is a huge black mark on the presentation of the product.

It shows that the pre outs can be connected to the left and right sub line inputs. This is probably the best way to connect a sub to this unit, and use the crossover in the sub. A starting point would be X 2 the F3 of the main speakers.

It shows that sub pre out as being connected to an external amp to drive a passive sub. I suspect there is some type of unspecified low pass filter associated with this input.

I have seen a lot of your posts now about your bedroom system. It seems to me what you are hankering after is a good British Integrated amp and and some nice British speakers to go with it.

It is not essential for an audiophile type two channel system to have video circuits.

I use an HDMI switcher in my lower living room system for the video units, and feed the audio to my preamp. The preamp outputs are split to the main power amps and a dual electronic crossover which acts as a variable low pass filter to the two subs via their power amps. The subs have little to do and just gently extend the main speakers into the last octave, filing in as they roll off. Since they have a very decent bass response any way, the bass amps barely get warm.

The greater percentage of this system is vintage.

My point is that you can make a very good two channel AV system out of vintage audio gear, and easily, even though this fine audio gear was designed and produced long before audio met video in the domestic environment.

So you might want to take a look at some nice vintage equipment. If you are patient and look carefully you can find deals on good gear from previous generations that will leave your Onkyo unit well in the shade.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Anyone else with any thoughts on why there's a "relative" volume scale availble on a stereo unit with no speaker setup menus or adjustments?

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Anyone?

 

[MDS]

Pearl, you sure know how to beat a dead horse. In practically every thread different people answer the questions in different ways and you just reply each time by asking the same question again.

 

[Seth=L]

The subwoofer output on that receiver is just a fixed monoraul mix of the left and right channel with a low pass filter fixed at 80Hz. It is absolutely not adjustable. Unlike home theater receivers you can not "shut off" the subwoofer output. There is no high pass filter for left and right speakers. The only reason the Onkyo's low pass filter is fixed at 80Hz is so vocal and other audible signals above 80Hz don't make it into the subwoofer. Granted some frequencies above 80Hz will get into the subwoofer because a low pass filter just just cut off the frequency, it begins to roll off at or around the specified frequency.

The TX-8555 does not have level controls because it is a stereo receiver.

I'm not entirely sure why Onkyo allows you to choose between absolute and relative volume control, maybe so the user can use what they feel comfortable with. As MDS says, your beating a dead horse at this point. I really don't think it matters that they've included this feature. If I personally had it, I'd use relative because I just like using it more.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Pearl, you sure know how to beat a dead horse. In practically every thread different people answer the questions in different ways and you just reply each time by asking the same question again.

I'm beating the dead horse?? You're the one that asked about channel trims and availability of calibration means with this stereo unit, and I responded by saying there were no "channel trims" on this receiver -- then I didn't hear back about any of this again...

I am saying there ARE no "channel trim" adjustments on the 8555, so why is there an option for leaving the volume on the "relative" scale? Relative to what, if this isn't THX or "reference" volumes we're dealing with here?

 

[PearlcorderS701]

The subwoofer output on that receiver is just a fixed monoraul mix of the left and right channel with a low pass filter fixed at 80Hz. It is absolutely not adjustable. Unlike home theater receivers you can not "shut off" the subwoofer output. There is no high pass filter for left and right speakers. The only reason the Onkyo's low pass filter is fixed at 80Hz is so vocal and other audible signals above 80Hz don't make it into the subwoofer. Granted some frequencies above 80Hz will get into the subwoofer because a low pass filter just just cut off the frequency, it begins to roll off at or around the specified frequency.

Thank you, Seth -- what I have been asking about all along...

The TX-8555 does not have level controls because it is a stereo receiver.

I KNOW that -- I was trying to explain that to MDS...

I'm not entirely sure why Onkyo allows you to choose between absolute and relative volume control, maybe so the user can use what they feel comfortable with. As MDS says, your beating a dead horse at this point. I really don't think it matters that they've included this feature. If I personally had it, I'd use relative because I just like using it more.

I don't think I was beating any dead horse at this point, because of the fact that we never got to the bottom of why these options are there to begin with -- your suggestion above justifies this in that you say "you're not entirely sure" why they allow users to choose between these scales, but that doesn't mean that I am beating a dead horse; I just want to know why the scale exists if it isn't a surround AVR with a REFERENCE LEVEL scale to base it on...

 

[PENG]

I don't think I was beating any dead horse at this point, because of the fact that we never got to the bottom of why these options are there to begin with -- your suggestion above justifies this in that you say "you're not entirely sure" why they allow users to choose between these scales, but that doesn't mean that I am beating a dead horse; I just want to know why the scale exists if it isn't a surround AVR with a REFERENCE LEVEL scale to base it on...

Hey Pearl, only Onkyo knows why they provided both options, but if people know they are allowed to guess they might have responded to your specific question. Regardless I would take a guess as follow:

1. Onkyo may think that some 2 channel only users may not know enough about the relative scale and prefer the simple absolute scale they have got used to over the year. It is simple for them because naturally 0 is nothing and larger number is louder.

2. Onkyo may think that many 2 channel receiver users are familiar with the relative scale and got so use to it in their multi-channel systems, to the point they prefer it to the simpler absolute scale.

I agree with Seth=L and prefer the relative scale. In the relative scale I know I should not exceed 0 in general as beyond that I would have exceeded the receiver's design limit even if the load is a easy to drive speaker. Also, with the relative scale, I know if I reduce the volume from say -10 to -13, I drop the AVR's output by (3dB) or 50%. In absolute scale I cannot be sure unless I do a calibration with a SPL meter first to find out if the numbers correspond to the relative scale in a linear relationship.

I read the 8555 manual and I know the two scales are in fact equivalent in the sense that each unit increment correspond to 1 dB change in the receiver's output. Still it is easier for me to know -13.5 on the display means the receiver output drops by -13.5 dB so I am well below the design limit of the receiver's amps. In the absolute scale 68.5 would mean the same but that's just Onkyo, it may or may not be different with other makes.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm beating the dead horse?? You're the one that asked about channel trims and availability of calibration means with this stereo unit, and I responded by saying there were no "channel trims" on this receiver -- then I didn't hear back about any of this again...

I am saying there ARE no "channel trim" adjustments on the 8555, so why is there an option for leaving the volume on the "relative" scale? Relative to what, if this isn't THX or "reference" volumes we're dealing with here?

 

[MDS]

I'm beating the dead horse?? You're the one that asked about channel trims and availability of calibration means with this stereo unit, and I responded by saying there were no "channel trims" on this receiver -- then I didn't hear back about any of this again...

I am saying there ARE no "channel trim" adjustments on the 8555, so why is there an option for leaving the volume on the "relative" scale? Relative to what, if this isn't THX or "reference" volumes we're dealing with here?

You are extremely dense and totally incapable of understanding any of this. I said IF it has channel trims then you could perform a calibration and then - just as in the case of a surround receiver - the number on the volume display would have meaning with respect to the output SPL.

You took that and ran with that and said you were trying to explain to me that it doesn't have channel trims. Great, it's a stereo receiver and that particular one doesn't have channel trims. It's irrelevant as it has nothing to do with the numbers on the volume display and simply means that there is no way to determine the output SPL just by looking at the display as you could if you had done a calibration.

You replied 'NO' to my saying the receiver has a fixed crossover that is either 80 Hz or 90 Hz even when you said in the original post that you thought Onkyo said it was fixed at 80 Hz. Then Seth=L said the exact same thing but was kind enough to offer even further detail. Once you read Seth's reply you say wow, thanks that's what I was trying to explain to MDS. You're dense!

I don't think I was beating any dead horse at this point, because of the fact that we never got to the bottom of why these options are there to begin with -- your suggestion above justifies this in that you say "you're not entirely sure" why they allow users to choose between these scales, but that doesn't mean that I am beating a dead horse; I just want to know why the scale exists if it isn't a surround AVR with a REFERENCE LEVEL scale to base it on...

This is a PERFECT example of what I am talking about. Despite numerous attempts to explain a simple concept, once again you reply saying we haven't gotten to the bottom of anything and ask the original question AGAIN - why does the relative scale exist?

For the umpteenth time: the numbers on the volume display are a scale - a range between minimum and maximum. It has nothing to do with SPL, unless you calibrate, but of course it is a stereo receiver which has no facilities for calibration, so you conclude there MUST be something magical about it because in your mind a relative scale only applies to a surround receiver where '0' is a point on the scale near max, but not AT the max. It damn sure doesn't have anything to do with THX and a 'reference' level can be anything you want - it is after all a level to which everything else is relative.

Stereo receivers have used relative scales since the '70s. I asked if '0' was the top of the scale on the Onkyo. As I said earlier, if '0' is the top of the scale, then it is MAX - meaning maximum output (or zero attenuation of the level of the incoming signal). If the scale were absolute and the max number is '80' or 'Z' or the greek letter Delta, it is still the same.

I pointed out that you can tell that the receiver is at 80% of max level if the absolute scale shows 80 when the top of the scale is 100 or when the relative scale shows -20 if the range was -100 to 0. If the scale were a - ZZZ, ZZZ would be max and it would be the same thing - just nonsensical because humans see 'volume' as a numeric quantity. Peng said the same thing and yet once again you just reiterate the original question and say 'why'.

I'm sure at some point you'll ask why '0' for a tone control like bass or treble means 'no change' and why does it use a 'relative' scale from -10 to +10 with zero in the middle. That can be explained in one sentence and yet you'll turn it into a multi-page thread, each time reiterating the original question!

 

[PENG]

I just want to know why the scale exists if it isn't a surround AVR with a REFERENCE LEVEL scale to base it on...

I think I dealt with your other questions in post#14 but I missed this one. It seems to me regardless of whether it is a 2.1 or 7.1 receiver, the relative scale is there for those familiar with the volume display that corresponds to relative loudness in dB. For example, if your SPL meter registers 80 dB your listening position when the volume display is at 0 using the relative scale, then if you lower the volume to say -15, you can expect the SPL meter to show 80-15 = 65 dB. This only works if you use a test tone. In absolute scale it may or may not work like this, but as I said in post#15, the 8555's absolute scale does work the same way as the relative scale in that each unit change correspond to a decibel change in relative output. So if you turn the volume down by 3 in either scale, your are reducing its ouput by half.

 

[PENG]

Corrections: post#14 & 17

I just noticed in post#14 the example I used show that -13.5 is equivalent to 68.5 but that was a mistake as I got it mixed up with their numbers given in the 5007's manual. For the 8555 the range in absolute display is min, 1 to 79 and max, but they did not say what it is for the relative display. It could be from -80 to 0, I cannot be sure but it really does not matter. For the 5007 it is -infinity, -81.5, through +18 and min, 0.5 through 99.5 and max, basically 0 to 100.

Also, in your post#12, you asked the question "Relative to what?" I would say relative to the amp's output level at any particular moment; and again, if the volume display shows -10, turning it down to -13 would cut it's output at that moment by 3 dB.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

You are extremely dense and totally incapable of understanding any of this. I said IF it has channel trims then you could perform a calibration and then - just as in the case of a surround receiver - the number on the volume display would have meaning with respect to the output SPL.

You took that and ran with that and said you were trying to explain to me that it doesn't have channel trims. Great, it's a stereo receiver and that particular one doesn't have channel trims. It's irrelevant as it has nothing to do with the numbers on the volume display and simply means that there is no way to determine the output SPL just by looking at the display as you could if you had done a calibration.

You replied 'NO' to my saying the receiver has a fixed crossover that is either 80 Hz or 90 Hz even when you said in the original post that you thought Onkyo said it was fixed at 80 Hz. Then Seth=L said the exact same thing but was kind enough to offer even further detail. Once you read Seth's reply you say wow, thanks that's what I was trying to explain to MDS. You're dense!



This is a PERFECT example of what I am talking about. Despite numerous attempts to explain a simple concept, once again you reply saying we haven't gotten to the bottom of anything and ask the original question AGAIN - why does the relative scale exist?

For the umpteenth time: the numbers on the volume display are a scale - a range between minimum and maximum. It has nothing to do with SPL, unless you calibrate, but of course it is a stereo receiver which has no facilities for calibration, so you conclude there MUST be something magical about it because in your mind a relative scale only applies to a surround receiver where '0' is a point on the scale near max, but not AT the max. It damn sure doesn't have anything to do with THX and a 'reference' level can be anything you want - it is after all a level to which everything else is relative.

Stereo receivers have used relative scales since the '70s. I asked if '0' was the top of the scale on the Onkyo. As I said earlier, if '0' is the top of the scale, then it is MAX - meaning maximum output (or zero attenuation of the level of the incoming signal). If the scale were absolute and the max number is '80' or 'Z' or the greek letter Delta, it is still the same.

I pointed out that you can tell that the receiver is at 80% of max level if the absolute scale shows 80 when the top of the scale is 100 or when the relative scale shows -20 if the range was -100 to 0. If the scale were a - ZZZ, ZZZ would be max and it would be the same thing - just nonsensical because humans see 'volume' as a numeric quantity. Peng said the same thing and yet once again you just reiterate the original question and say 'why'.

I'm sure at some point you'll ask why '0' for a tone control like bass or treble means 'no change' and why does it use a 'relative' scale from -10 to +10 with zero in the middle. That can be explained in one sentence and yet you'll turn it into a multi-page thread, each time reiterating the original question!

I am not even going to bother going through the absolute nonsensical rhetoric you spew in the first few paragraphs here because that would be an utter waste of my valued time -- except to say it was a unique opportunity to call me "dense" when you don't even know me. I am far from dense, regardless of what you may think (although I don't really care what you "virtually think" of me via an online discussion forum) and the fact that you can actually reply with such vile garbage which still didn't answer any of my questions is proof positive to me who is actually dense in the situation...

However, I will reply to your last comment -- you're being a complete jackass at this point with this statement, but I will respond to it at any rate. No, I won't ask any questions regarding bass and treble controls. I know why they exist. And I know what "in the middle" default lock means with regard to them. And that is ABSOLUTELY NOT the same thing I was asking about with regard to the VOLUME approach.

Enjoy your evening.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

I think I dealt with your other questions in post#14 but I missed this one. It seems to me regardless of whether it is a 2.1 or 7.1 receiver, the relative scale is there for those familiar with the volume display that corresponds to relative loudness in dB. For example, if your SPL meter registers 80 dB your listening position when the volume display is at 0 using the relative scale, then if you lower the volume to say -15, you can expect the SPL meter to show 80-15 = 65 dB. This only works if you use a test tone. In absolute scale it may or may not work like this, but as I said in post#15, the 8555's absolute scale does work the same way as the relative scale in that each unit change correspond to a decibel change in relative output. So if you turn the volume down by 3 in either scale, your are reducing its ouput by half.

Well, PENG, I suppose I will have to accept this explanation as the closest to the actual reason for the "relative" scale being available -- I still don't see, though (which appears to be the source of some controversey) why SPL meters and their interaction with levels and such would even come into play with a two-channel setup; I think that's where the confusion lies. Test tones, etc. are only utilized, as far as I know, in surround-oriented electronics, so I am still baffled as to why Onk would include this option in a stereo device...

I am going to try and e-mail their technical services division to try and get some answers, and will PM you with those results.