So earlier today I start typing...

[mulester7]

You can get a set of Sansui SP-2500s off Ebay for $200 that at the very least is far higher price/perfomance ratio than the 901, and possibly a better sounding speaker. I knew the 2500 was better than the 901 when it came out about 30 years ago.

I also still love the sound of those speakers...but they are just so freaking HUGE...old large woofer Sansuis are not known for their wife acceptance factor...but the pretty lattice grillwork does help some..

.....Steve, I apologize....thanks for the response....I now know what caliber of speakers are out there by what I received a month ago....I am trying in no way to be a barker for Bob and his speakers, either, Clint, Sir....wouldn't matter anyway....he told me in an IM session yesterday that he will build about 5 pair a year from here on and that is it....they are conceived as being expensive especially when you only see only a button tweeter and an 8 inch woofer....Buck, the woofer has linear excursion limits that approach the Sun cube sub....amazing presence....and established by Martin Logan's magic, magic is going to cost quite a bit extra....Bob's almost cussing me by IM every time telling me to put the damned things on the floor and sell the subs....I'll try it sooner or later....can I get an Amen from SVS owners?....my second pair of TL's is already negotiated and locked in and I am working toward it....could care less if any TL's are sold ever again, but for Bob's sake, I hope they are, of course....he has become real special to me, BUT!!, he's living a TORTUROUS life currently in Morro Bay, CA....yeah, he can't walk 50 feet west without having to wrestle a shark....join me in extending a hand west, Gentlemen....that could go about three directions, haha.....

 

[mulester7]

......I've been enlightened....I asked Buckeyefan a question using the private feature of this fine board....which is fun, except when it's Clint comin' at ya', haha....anyhow, I asked Buck a question and he replied in a way I thought others reading here would appreciate hearing....he said ok on the quoting....oh, on his last sentence, all I can say is I certainly have him fooled....Buck, I think me and you could hang out.....this will be my last contribution of the evening....(THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE)....(frown).....


.....Buck, let me ask you something....in the 70's and 80's, surround was derived from an attack named matrix....this system somehow picked out surges, I suspect, and sent them to the rears....today with these surround 7 channel receivers, does the same thing happen, or do they work more on discrete emissions?....or is an honest to goodness processor involved?......



Totally different today. 7 channel is a myth of some sorts. The only true surround sound right now is through DVD, DVD Audio, and SACD where music tracks are recorded and sent to 5 or 6 separate channels. The 7th channel matrixes an existing 6th and splits it up into virtual stereo for the rear surround. DVD uses 5.1 and 6.1 (the .1 being a subwoofer). DVD audio uses 6.1 but is a pain in the neck to hook up. You need 6 rca ins and outs to these new receivers. DTS has an "ES Discrete 6.1" mode that is legit and is the most advanced form of surround today. I find the surround modes totally useless though, where the standard "stereo" and "7 channel stereo" still sound the best. This is probably not the in depth answer you are looking for, but is the best I can do.

 

[Tom Andry]

They sell Bose systems obviously.

.....(cricket).....

I thought it was funny.

 

[mulester7]

....up early with hot coffee close....I've thought about these current surround receivers a bit....thinking is usually what gets me in the most trouble....warning....this may be the post that gets me labeled as an genuine idiot and run off....if so, I'll be brave and go quietly.....


"music tracks are recorded and sent to 5 or 6 separate channels"
"The 7th channel matrixes an existing 6th and splits it up into virtual stereo"
"ES Discrete 6.1"
""stereo" and "7 channel stereo" still sound the best"


.....Buck, or anyone....two questions....the first....how many seperate, discrete from each other, amplifier sections do the newest surround receivers have?....the second....aren't the terms, "channels", and, "ES Discrete 6.1", used here indigenous only to the millivolted pre-amp section?....statement....if the answer to the first question is, here we go again, twooooo, and unless they have 6 or 7 seperate and discrete from each other amplifier sections onboard, I'd say technology continues on, ever upward, with the tried-and-true basic concept of, "stereo left and right".......BUT!, if there are only two discrete amp sections left and right, there can only be two feeds as per "exit" from the two amp sections left and right to the 6 or 7 speakers....how do the 6 or 7 speakers receive and emit different information/channels?....the notion of 6 or 7 strapped slave amps now enters the picture I guess, haha....oh well....tell me the current surround receivers have 6 or 7 seperate and discrete from each other amp sections, and it was all for naught, I guess....could it be that through technology, discrete and matrix creation have been made to intertwine at the millivolt level with transfer information capabilities once amplified by watts?....I doubt that, and I suspect there's more matrix creation going on than we think....even though the end result is Wonderful, with great pleasure being derived from more than one format....yes, the end result is Great and may it only get Better, but why would it not be still pretty much basic stereo if it's sent from but two independent amplifier sections?....sure not throwing any cold water, either, as performance of these surround theaters only gets better....let me ask this....can the volume of each of the 6 or 7 speakers be controlled individually from the receiver?....if the answer is yes, and the attenuator knobs are on the back of the receiver, or even the front but more likely the back, chances are the attenuator knob is acting as an L-pad on an amplified signal....I quit, and should, since I really don't have enough info to work with on these new and complex surround receivers....I bought one for my son-in-law and it's really clean and was super cheap for a couple of hundred bucks....I just don't think a couple of hundred bucks bought Greg either six or seven independent seperate and apart amp sections....over........Buck, I'm confused but tryin', and you gotta' remember kids from Arkinsaw, usually early on in life, bounce on that head a LOT tryin' accelerated Superman stuff......


"You need 6 rca ins and outs to these new receivers"

.....Buck, I can understand the 6 outs, where do 6 in's come from?.....

 

[mulester7]

.....Mrnomas, as Nick Tortelli would say, "IT'S A CURSE!".....

 

[mulester7]

.....wow, seasoned in 6 days....somebody check with Guiness.....

 

[mulester7]

.....Guinness also.....

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

On my Denon 3805, it's described as "fully discrete, equal power seven amplifier channels, 120 watts each. Identicle amplifier design featuring high current discrete output devices on all 7 channels."

It is not the same as 7 - 120 watt McIntosh mononbloc amps. While the new surround receivers sport separate amps, there are nowhere near the heat sinks in my Denon compared to a monobloc amp. We all know heat causes issues, most notably distortion. So IMO the best surround sound receivers today are fine for typical living room HT and musical use, they in no way are meant to compete with the massive monobloc and stereo amps that cost two and three times what these units do. What my Denon does have over other better surround receivers is a large capacity block capacitor for seamless power supply. Denon makes a great two channel stereo receiver at 100 watts per channel. That unit weighs 22 lbs, while my 3805 weighs 37 lbs. I have had separates hooked up to my extremely inefficient Polks, and I am still impressed by the power this new Denon 3805 puts out. Will it play at the same volumes for the same amount of time as 7 McIntosh 120 watt monobloc amps? No way. For the price point, am I satisfied? Heck yeah.

 

[mulester7]

Audio Inputs: 7.1 external wide bandwidth (100 kHz) multi-channel inputs, 5/7 Channel Stereo, DENON Link 3rd (SACD & DVD-Audio compatible), 7 assignable digital inputs (5 optical, 2 coaxial), 10 analog inputs

Audio Outputs: 2 optical digital outputs, 2 multi-zone stereo pre-amp level audio outputs, fixed or variable level

.....Buck, above are specs on the Denon 3805 as made available by this site for reference on search engines....you can input everything imaginable, but look at the outputs at pre-amp level....I suspect the magic of this product is in the bit processors after the signal enters the unit at pre-amp level....how can it have 7 independent amplifier sections rated at 120 watts each and also give a bi-amped front mains rating of 240?...I doubt 7 amp sections strap up to give two....hey, I'm only trying to figure this animal out, and it's obviously an outstanding animal....I'll perform a little DD and try to find something out....it tickled me when you expressed a genuine caring for this product....that's where it's at.....

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Mule, I spent a year researching amps, receivers, speakers, etc... before settling on this one. You can't imagine the reveiws out there on receivers. I've talked to so many managers in hifi stores about what they own, and demo'd just about everything out there. My friends know me as the guy who could care less about a name plate, and more about the actual performance of things.

IE, my buddy in Dallas has an 05 BMW M3. I told him for my dollar, I'd rather spend the cash on the new Vette Z06 with 500HP. He said I was nuts b/c of the street credit the Beemer has over the GM product, and the demographics of both vehicles. He said if he had to choose American, he'd buy a Viper over a Vette because of appearance. To me, I could care less about what others think of what my ride looks like, as long as I know I'm getting the most bang for my buck. The only receiver out there better than the Denon 3805 for the money is the Marantz 8400 at www.ubid.com. It will auction out under $600. Had that been available when I bought my Denon, I would have gone with Marantz. In the near future, I will be adding a massive 2 channel amp to my system to get these damn Polks to sing like they should.

I know you are trying to say the new 7.1 receivers have one amp, and the processors split these amps into 7 separate channels. That may be the case. Heck, they only have 1 transformer. Today's surround sound is very dependant on the center channel, then the two fronts, and last but not least the two rear surrounds, then the two rear centers. If the rear surrounds and rear centers even come on while watching cable, you're lucky. No one needs 120 watts to the rears or rear centers. If they could push 80 watts of that power to my front mains, and possibly a little more to my center, than I'd be in lala land. Until then, I guess I'll just have to live with "equal power seven amplifier channels." Whatever the heck that means!

 

[mulester7]

.....Buck, I raise a grape soda from Wal-Mart to the monitor in honor of your response....I know we could hang out....I'll leave tonight....clean me out a corner in your garage....

 

[mulester7]

"Heck, they only have 1 transformer"

.....excellent....

 

[mulester7]

.....to you guys who have 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1 receivers and possess a full compliment of speakers surrounding your theater....Buck just related to us a situational lack where he wasn't getting much bang for his buck watching cable....that might be a bad side, I don't know....but this is for sure, isn't it AMAZING how GREAT your theater sounds are, when ALL your speakers/soldiers are present and accounted for?....and I mean, !!LO!UD!!, haha....MAN, can the presence come through when it's cranked or what?....enough of researching the multi-channel receivers....If Buck had not LOVED it, he would not have it........we're all in this together and it's obvious who's had real interests for a longer time in the theater surround concepts....Buck's Denon 3805 accepts that DVD signal from it's source, and calls ALL the speakers to attention and then marches them quite nicely or Brother Buck would not have it for HIS sounds....if you listen real close, you can even hear that receiver talking.....(with a left)....(and a left)....(and a left)....(right)....(left)....(Clint, save horses)....(ride cowgirls)....

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Mule, you must have been a comedian in your last life. I am cracking up right now after 4 Miller high-lifes. Yes, the white trash beer commercials you see. Having been put on the South Beach Diet by my better half, I have succomb to eating greens and meats. No bread or carbs for dinner, but she is away for the weekend, so I am enjoying BEER tonight. And lots of it. I am off to Taco Hell for nachos supreme, a taco pizza, and burrito supreme. My gut may explode with all the lafter and crap I am putting in it tonight, but I will die a happy man - be it a few years earlier. What a great website. LOL. Oh, and if I can manage to stand straight, I'll get a dvd (hopefully encoded DTS) from Blockbuster. Purchased the all you can rent for $9.99 special and damn if I won't get my money's worth!

 

[mulester7]

.....Buck, we need to be able to come here and feel totally comfortable like we're sitting around a big table sipping coffee....most of the known World is not aware of this site's presence....but guys and gals, who cares?....the right people show up....let's just smile, take a deep breath, and talk to each other........Buck, I appreciate the comment, but my Daddy was the stand-up comic....and dryyyyyy delivery like used to be done on Cheers....I leaned on stuff for minutes sometimes when Daddy would lean over and quip something at me....one time when I was an older kid he and I walked into a motel lobby to get the rooms while my Brother and Mother stayed in the car....it was obvious somebody had just cut some THICK cheese in the small lobby and moved on....yeah, FARTED....Daddy leaned over to me and dryyyyly said, "smells like a sack fulla' assholes in here".....Buck, when I exploded, people were standing up in the restaurant looking over the partition.....

 

[algernon]

The only receiver out there better than the Denon 3805 for the money is the Marantz 8400 at www.ubid.com. It will auction out under $600. Had that been available when I bought my Denon, I would have gone with Marantz.

Buckeye,
I'm am strongly considering the 3805, and the Yam 2500. What is it about the Marantz that you prefer over your Denon?
Thanks.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

I grew up around Marantz. Marantz has always made very high end receivers and amplifiers. Their stuff is built like a rock, and always very user friendly. Check out their older gear on ebay. Marantz, like McIntosh, has a cult like following. Those who use Marantz never seem to go to anything else. I've always considered Marantz one step up from Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer Elite, and the others. More on the lines with NAD, Rotel, B&K, and Adcom.

I had settled on the new Marantz SR8500, but no one was dealing on it. Then I had found some SR8400's that I liked, but they were all B stock and nothing was priced near the Denon 3805. A month after I bought my Denon, Ubid had a bunch of SR8400's and people were grabbing them up left and right.

Check out the specs on the new SR8500. Then you'll see why the SR8400 is such a bargain. IMO they are better than both the Yamaha 2500 and Denon 3805. The SR8500 is not at the same price point, so it's not a fair comparison, but the SR8400 retails for $1299, and getting one for under $600 is an absolute STEAL.

http://us.marantz.com/shop/_templates/category.asp?cat=15

 

[mulester7]

.....Buck, how was your canoe trip up 30-Pack River last night?.....

 

[mulester7]

.....question to anyone who might have experience with processors, and I'm talking about the ones that cost in the thousands like Lexicons....don't these units negate the need for a seperate pre-amp?....don't you input directly into them with all your whatever-impedence sources?.....

 

[mulester7]

......guys, love for audio is World-wide.....

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